Jaqen H'ghar Was Paid to Kill Jon

[bemused]

I agree with much of what Rhaenys_Targaryen said re; Jaqen upthread, and also with TheKillerSnark that Jaqen had nothing to do with Balon's death , though I differ from both of them as to what's really been going on.

In the case of Balon, the man without a face may just show that the GofHH didn't get a clear picture of him, but the drowned crow pretty clearly identifies him as Euron's agent. However, the bridge was blown apart by a sudden freak storm that came in from the west..Euron at another point in the story says "I am the storm." ... We later see a successful attack by him where he takes his ships far out to sea then comes in suddenly from the west... His men believe his warlocks are working weather magic to manipulate the winds.

So, I don't think Eurons "agent" was actually on the bridge , but caused the storm to come up as Balon was going to cross it.(Or, if the agent was on the bridge, he would have been blown to his death as well.) There's no doubt that the warlocks work magic, and this may be the reason the GofHH didn't see the man more clearly. ... We've seen no hint of the FM being able to work weather magic.

(And I'm sure there's more to be revealed about Euron's relationship to the warlocks and whether he actually threw a dragon's egg into the sea.. and what is the real reason that he has fewer warlocks than he started out with.)

As for Jaqen.. I agree with R_T that it's really unlikely that the FM would have Jon as a target. He or whoever hired him would have no way of knowing beforehand what would be happening to Jon within the timeline.

But I disagree that Jaqen would have been thrown in the Black Cells for a simple murder. There must be many murders in KL, and there are only 3 inmates in those cells. We're told that the Black Cells are reserved for the worst of the worst criminals .. and political prisoners. So I think a murder would have to be pretty horrific to land the perpetrator in there. We do have an unexplained murder mentioned to Ned soon after his arrival..I think it was the headless torso of a woman.. or maybe the head and nothing else (I'd need to check).. found floating in a pool. But FM murders are usually designed to appear to be either natural, or accidental deaths.

We can understand why Rorge and Biter might be kept in the BCs after seeing Biter's attack on Brienne (and naturally suspect Biter when we read of rape victims whose breasts had been chewed or had chunks bitten out of them .. Ugh!).

I'd also point out that the search for dragon lore might not have seemed so imperative to Braavosi interests at the time Jaquen would have arrived in KL, since the dragons had not been hatched, yet.

I agree with Taemlyn Blackfyre that Syrio might well be Jaqen ...but only by the time we reach Harrenhall. The problem with the way the S=J idea is usually floated, is that people insist that Syrio had to make the exchange in the Black Cells. This would be entirely counter-productive on his part, not to mention illogical, if his object was to get to the wall (there are so many easier ways).

I've presented the following before in this thread...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81177-syrio-the-phoenix/?hl=%2Bsyrio+%2Bphoenix

... and I've come across more clues since then.. but the basic hypothesis is this:

A FM is in KL to keep tabs on and report the fluctuations in the political situation there. It's one thing to be in KL and another to have free access to the Red Keep and yet another thing to get close to the new Hand,who has brought all his own people with him from WF.

(On a side note, there are a few hints that Tobho Mott may be a sort of "chef de mission" for the HoB&W / IB in King's Landing, and to my mind, well placed to have recommended Syrio.)

When Ned plans to return home, Syrio agrees to accompany him to WF. The rift between Ned and KL would be very important, politically. The FM may have a man (Mott) in KL, but none in WF to see/guess what Ned would do next .. and by this time, Braavos could be much better informed about Dany ... so perhaps WF manuscripts could also come into play at this time.

I don't think Meryn Trant was invincible and I don't think the Black Cell scenario is plausible , but a FM could have substitued himself for any one of the other "recruits" - in KL , or anywhere along the way, as far as the holdfast.

Jaqen, up until then could indeed have been a terrible murderer. (Perhaps responsible for the part-woman in the pool .. or anything, really.).. I think the signs are very strong that he did not survive the fire at the holdfast, and the FM took on his persona after that. Being one of Lorch's men, rather than some guy likely to be taken prisoner (if not killed) would give him much more agency to move on with his mission(s) and allow him a better way of keeping an eye out for Arya.

I don't think his object was to recruit her initially , or he would have tried harder to persuade her to accompany him . As it was, he would have thought she was relatively safe being left with what appeared to be her brother's men.

I suspect that the Alchemist may not only be after Dragon lore, because he has the key from Pate, yet he's still there (and must have been for a while because he's part of Marwyn's little group). Maybe Marwyn sees through the glamour..maybe they're allies... :dunno: ... But I think he's also there to suss out political connections among the Maesters and very likely what's up with the Hightowers.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But I disagree that Jaqen would have been thrown in the Black Cells for a simple murder. There must be many murders in KL, and there are only 3 inmates in those cells. We're told that the Black Cells are reserved for the worst of the worst criminals .. and political prisoners. So I think a murder would have to be pretty horrific to land the perpetrator in there. We do have an unexplained murder mentioned to Ned soon after his arrival..I think it was the headless torso of a woman.. or maybe the head and nothing else (I'd need to check).. found floating in a pool. But FM murders are usually designed to appear to be either natural, or accidental deaths.

Simple murder wouldn´t have been it.. Something rather horrific.. If it was anything else, I am currently out of idea´s... Your floating head idea is an interesting one. (it was just the head, in the Great Sept, floating in the rainbow pool)...

It is true that FM murders are designed to look like accidents... It would be my guess then that Jaqen had fullfilled his mission, and that something happened directly afterwards that caused him to land in the Black Cells..

[bemused]

It is true that FM murders are designed to look like accidents... It would be my guess then that Jaqen had fullfilled his mission, and that something happened directly afterwards that caused him to land in the Black Cells..

Yes, something like that was, at one point, my idea as well. I only came back around to looking at the possibility of Syrio's survival after realising there could be something very "off" about the fire at the holdfast and Jaqen's reappearance in Harrenhall.

There are strong similarities between the way the events of fire are written and the way Jon's assassination scene is written. First, just describing it in writing makes some things seem to take longer, and makes each element more separate and distinct than would be the case, if you were there seeing it. In real time, some things would be happening simultaneously, or nearly so. ... In Jon's assasination this makes it hard to keep track of just how rushed the attack was (which would increase the chances of poor aim, e.g.).. and here it blurs just how quickly the barn collapses after Arya throws the axe (which makes it questionable whether Jaqen escaped.)

Then there is ambiguous or misleading use of language .

Jaqen starts coughing when no one else does.. before Arya heads out for the axe.. Rorge is screaming curses.. Biter is trying to rip his chains free (which takes some effort) and later screaming.. Arya and Gendry are shouting and yelling while deciding what to do.. When Arya comes back with the axe ....

Arya put a hand over her mouth and nose. She couldn’t see the wagon for the smoke, but she could still hear Biter screaming. She crawled toward the sound.

And then a wheel was looming over her. The wagon jumped and moved a half foot when Biter threw himself against his chains again. Jaqen saw her, but it was too hard to breathe, let alone talk. She threw the axe into the wagon.

I think the bold sentence means that it was too hard for Jaqen to breathe,he's the subject of the sentence. ... And even before that, he had not been described as being very active. He seems to me to be particularly susceptible to smoke inhalation...As she runs for the tunnel, Arya coughs for the first time. Only a few seconds later, the barn collapses and Arya feels the shock wave down in the tunnel.

Without going into a lot of the other detail here - it's supect that in Harrenhall ,Jaqen seems not to have suffered any burns, while Biter did and Rorge may have.. And in case we're tempted to say ..oh well, Jaqen could just work a glamour .. GRRM has him lounging in a steaming hot bath, having buckets of hot water poured over his head.

So I think "pre-fire Jaqen" really was a terrible criminal and "post-fire Jaqen" is a FM. It may be that we didn't meet this FM before , or that he was someone else with Yoren's party, like one of the men in the watchtower who survived.. and that means he could be Syrio, if you give any possibilty of credence to the many hints (e.g.,whispers) and possible parallels (see Barristan's escape) that might support the idea.

Whoever he is, I feel confident he wasn't trying to get to the wall and Jon was not a target.

[Brav]

Fascinating stuff. I tend to agree with the intelligence gathering idea. Maybe dragons or are the FM gathering info on the younger generation of the great houses? Why the great interest in Arya?

I noticed rewatching the GoT show that there was a reference to Varys having a spy in Winterfell. He tells Tyrion in season 2 that he hasn't had any messages from there since Theon took it over.

[REVEALnothing]

Is it somehow possible that the FM was with Ned all along, may explain the extra time with Arya, and if Ned told him(R+L=J) may explain the dragon info seeking. Searching for proof?? Just a randon late night thought on the subject. Thanks!!

[Ninerings]

Once I know why Rorge and Biter - who are both vicious and animalistic sociopaths - were afraid of Jeqen, then I'd begin to make assumptions. They witnessed something to make them cow to him.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

it's a simple as that

a faceless man never gives up a mission

therefore, he was hired to kill someone who died before he could get to him/her

[bemused]

it's a simple as that

a faceless man never gives up a mission

therefore, he was hired to kill someone who died before he could get to him/her

If he has been hired to kill someone.. When FM are not on a specific assassination assignment.. they are gathering information and bringing it back to the HoB&W. Arya's "three new things" (that she knows) show that even new recruits / applicants are being trained in this.. their "espionage" duties.

[bemused]

Once I know why Rorge and Biter - who are both vicious and animalistic sociopaths - were afraid of Jeqen, then I'd begin to make assumptions. They witnessed something to make them cow to him.

I don't think we have to know to make reasonable guesses. they didn't seem to be afraid of him before the events at the holdfast.. although they were a pair, and he was separate, judging by what Jaqen said to Arya, and by the back story GRRM has given for Rorge and Biter in a SSM.

They didn't show fear until they all reappear in Harrenhall. Either they witnessed his actual transfomation in the intervening time, or maybe they left him for dead and joined up with Lorch , only to have him turn up well and without a burn or singed hair, a few days later.

[John Hulboy]

There is no way the faceless men are out to get jon snow . I just don't see it .

[Valyrian Blade]

In AFFC we see Jaqen again i suspect he was looking for the book that Sam took with him to the citadel, sorry if i cant find a source, its pretty late.

But yeah i dont think there was a reason to kill Jon.

[Pielord]

Like its said one use for black cells are political prisoners, I always assumed he got himself in there to get to somone before they could talk.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Syrio Forel = Jaqen H'ghar

Sooooo many deny it, but it has so much to commend it. All arguments for it are beaten down, but plausible all the same because there is so little to confirm or rule out. Arguments against it win out simply because the character arc is so stupendous to begin with.

The key here is that Jaqen was in King's Landing at the same time as Syrio Forel. Biter and Rorge are terrified of H'ghar, while it is later revealed that none other than Varys plays under-jailer to tongueless Ser Ilyn and that the Black Cells are a domain where anything can happen. Nobody can ever convence me otherwise and I've held forth on this board for almost 10 years maintaining the same.

I agree, though more specifically he's a Faceless Man that took the face of Syrio and Jaqen and later Pate. FM as Syrio gets thrown in the Black Cells by Trant, and there he becomes Jaqen. I think he was originally was in King's Landing to spy on Ned Stark, and possibly to recruit Arya.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

it's a simple as that

a faceless man never gives up a mission

therefore, he was hired to kill someone who died before he could get to him/her

Or he was hired to kill Balon Greyjoy, with the price being a petrified dragon egg and succeeded, then moved on to the Citadel.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree, though more specifically he's a Faceless Man that took the face of Syrio and Jaqen and later Pate. FM as Syrio gets thrown in the Black Cells by Trant, and there he becomes Jaqen. I think he was originally was in King's Landing to spy on Ned Stark, and possibly to recruit Arya.

And they wouldn't notice that a prisoner had gone missing?

[clair de lune]

Well it could be that he was supposed to kill Jon, but because of Arya he learned Jon Snow's name. So by the FM code he then couldn't kill him.

[The Killer Snark]

I think that's perfectly feasible. It would explain why he turned south.

[Faceless Man Friday]

And they wouldn't notice that a prisoner had gone missing?

Not if he eluded the party sent to capture Arya and was placed in the black cells by Varys to take the place of the true Jaqen. There would be no body to miss. And why would Cersei care about Arya's missing dancing teacher anyway? Which could explain why we hear no more about him as Syrio.

[nickdt]

And they wouldn't notice that a prisoner had gone missing?

The Black Cells are deep down in the in KL. There is only one guard. The same Guard that left when Tyrion escaped. His name is Rugen en is a cover identity of Varys. So its likely Varys works with the FM and knows exactly who Syrio is and where Arya is. Why will Varys say that he can't find Arya. Because he knows she is safe with Syrio.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Black Cells are deep down in the in KL. There is only one guard. The same Guard that left when Tyrion escaped. His name is Rugen en is a cover identity of Varys. So its likely Varys works with the FM and knows exactly who Syrio is and where Arya is. Why will Varys say that he can't find Arya. Because he knows she is safe with Syrio.

Rugen was not the only guard..