Heresy 145

[Black Crow]

The problem is that we don't know what's really been going on up there. Judging by what Osha says and the way the boys have been visiting Craster for some years prior to all this kicking off [and the fact the Watch, or at least some of them, do know about the white walkers] we can safely conclude a low level of ongoing activity with the blue-eyed lot being an ordinary hazard of the winter-time. Clearly of late they have gotten rather more dangerous. Not only have they been visiting Craster's place more frequently but they have become enough of a threat to convince a lot of the Free Folk to rally behind Mance. The threat is real and so far as protection goes all bets may be off.

The question which this poses though is whether the threat comes from a spontaneous "awakening" of the old powers, or whether someone and not improbably Mance has stirred them up. Essentially its the old theory about what we're seeing being the consequence of Mance going grave-robbing in the Frostfangs. The timing is wrong for linking the white walkers with the "shades" supposedly loosed by the digging, but that's not to say that it wasn't down to Mance provoking things earlier.

Off the top of my head I don't recall anything Mance says or does to link him with the old gods or even a belief in the old gods.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Who is this Snowfyre Crow? Doesn't matter, welcome to the forums Snowfyre Crow!

Thanks! Glad to be here! Actually, this little twist on my username left me briefly considering a "Crowfyre" alter ego. Instead, I decided it was time to update my profile image. :cheers:

I think its simply a bit of conceit on Mance's part. The true Free Folk have rallied to him. The rest have simply run away - like Osha and her gang, or all those others reported by Ser Denys Mallister slipping past the Shadow Tower.

Maybe. I tend to think there's something more to it. I especially think it's remarkable that the wildlife itself seemed to vacate the Haunted Forest - and unless there are more talking animals than we know beyond the Wall (it is Dark Narnia, of course), then I doubt Mance recruited them directly.

Again I think that the key to all of this may be Mance's true identity. If he's not a Wildling born, as Osha makes perfectly clear, then who is he, why does Mel think him a useful ally and what is he really up to? If the white walkers are "just" Craster's sons rather than the harbingers of the blue-eyed horde, is Mance, who stirred them up, the real enemy?

Ehh... while I sorta kinda agree with your point re: Mance's identity, BC, I think you've stretched Osha's comment past the bounds of its intended meaning. She identifies him as a crow, yes... but she doesn't make any claim about whether he was born a wildling or not. I'm not sure she knows enough about him to say either way.

[King of Winters]

The problem is that we don't know what's really been going on up there. Judging by what Osha says and the way the boys have been visiting Craster for some years prior to all this kicking off [and the fact the Watch, or at least some of them, do know about the white walkers] we can safely conclude a low level of ongoing activity with the blue-eyed lot being an ordinary hazard of the winter-time. Clearly of late they have gotten rather more dangerous. Not only have they been visiting Craster's place more frequently but they have become enough of a threat to convince a lot of the Free Folk to rally behind Mance. The threat is real and so far as protection goes all bets may be off.

This could mean that the high members of the Watch who knew, Old Bear, Ben, etc, knew the WW weren't going to be a problem, otherwise they'd have called for help in swelling numbers years before with Ned and the other Northern Lords, and perhaps the South.

Maybe they knew the WW weren't looking for any specific trouble with them and so left Craster to do his work with them.

[Black Crow]

This could mean that the high members of the Watch who knew, Old Bear, Ben, etc, knew the WW weren't going to be a problem, otherwise they'd have called for help in swelling numbers years before with Ned and the other Northern Lords, and perhaps the South.

Maybe they knew the WW weren't looking for any specific trouble with them and so left Craster to do his work with them.

I very agree and think there was a large degree of complacency. As you say they knew about the white walkers, but regarded them merely as a dangerous hazard in the woods in winter. They didn't reckon them a problem because they didn't appear to pose a threat - until first those white walkers were seen near Eastwatch and too many patrols started going missing; hence the great ranging to find out what was going wrong and then, but not until then, that terrible epihany on the Fist.

[Matthew.]

This could mean that the high members of the Watch who knew, Old Bear, Ben, etc, knew the WW weren't going to be a problem, otherwise they'd have called for help in swelling numbers years before with Ned and the other Northern Lords, and perhaps the South.

Maybe they knew the WW weren't looking for any specific trouble with them and so left Craster to do his work with them.

But then there's that conversation Mormont has with Sam, where he says the Wall was made to guard the realms of men, and not against other men (Wildlings). "Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him." That doesn't seem consistent with the WW being a standard feature of life north of the Wall, or Mormont not viewing them as a threat; it seems to reflect a prolonged period of ignorance.

Similarly, Osha wants Bran to tell Robb that he's marching his army the wrong way, and that it's north that he should be taking his swords.

[Black Crow]

Ehh... while I sorta kinda agree with your point re: Mance's identity, BC, I think you've stretched Osha's comment past the bounds of its intended meaning. She identifies him as a crow, yes... but she doesn't make any claim about whether he was born a wildling or not. I'm not sure she knows enough about him to say either way.

Nah, I think that's exactly what she's saying because she explicitly contrasts the fact that unlike Mance she was born up there and her mother and grandmother before her.

[Matthew.]

If the WWs are a known feature of the north, why so much ignorance? From the perspective of the Watch, they seem to have certainly become the stuff of legend, with neither the library nor living men being able to provide much insight; Tormund also has little new information to provide.

You would think that if either the watch or Mance understood the full depth of what's going on at Craster's Keep, that he would be target number one for anybody that counts themselves as an enemy of the Others; again, sacrificing for protection is one thing, swelling their ranks is something far more dangerous, and impossible to ignore.

EDIT: And just an additional edit, remember, even AFTER what happened at the Fist, Mormont isn't advocating for violence against Craster.

[Black Crow]

If the WWs are a known feature of the north, why so much ignorance? From the perspective of the Watch, they seem to have certainly become the stuff of legend, with neither the library nor living men being able to provide much insight; Tormund also has little new information to provide.

You would think that if either the watch or Mance understood the full depth of what's going on at Craster's Keep, that he would be target number one for anybody that counts themselves as an enemy of the Others; again, sacrificing for protection is one thing, swelling their ranks is something far more dangerous, and impossible to ignore.

EDIT: And just an additional edit, remember, even AFTER what happened at the Fist, Mormont isn't advocating for violence against Craster.

As I pointed out above, the "living men" do know about the white walkers of the wood, but only as a threat to lonely travellers. What's coming as a shock is that they have suddenly become much more dangerous.

As to Craster's place, yes Mormont is aware something's going on but rightly doesn't see that offing Craster will solve anything. On the contrary, right to the end he sees Craster offering a safe refuge, and ultimately protection.

[King of Winters]

But then there's that conversation Mormont has with Sam, where he says the Wall was made to guard the realms of men, and not against other men (Wildlings). "Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him." That doesn't seem consistent with the WW being a standard feature of life north of the Wall, or Mormont not viewing them as a threat; it seems to reflect a prolonged period of ignorance.

Similarly, Osha wants Bran to tell Robb that he's marching his army the wrong way, and that it's north that he should be taking his swords.

As Black Crow said: "they didn't appear to pose a threat - until first those white walkers were seen near Eastwatch and too many patrols started going missing; hence the great ranging to find out what was going wrong". That was right at the end of this, when the white walkers were becoming a hazard for the Watch, not at the Wall, but during their job of ranging beyond it.

[Black Crow]

Osha's wanting Bran to tell Robb to take his army north to fight the blue-eyed lot is a bit rich given that she herself was running south rather than fight them alongside Mance.

[JNR]

If the WWs are a known feature of the north, why so much ignorance? From the perspective of the Watch, they seem to have certainly become the stuff of legend, with neither the library nor living men being able to provide much insight; Tormund also has little new information to provide.

You would think that if either the watch or Mance understood the full depth of what's going on at Craster's Keep, that he would be target number one for anybody that counts themselves as an enemy of the Others; again, sacrificing for protection is one thing, swelling their ranks is something far more dangerous, and impossible to ignore.

EDIT: And just an additional edit, remember, even AFTER what happened at the Fist, Mormont isn't advocating for violence against Craster.

:agree: and well said. You're not at all alone in thinking this.

Arguments based on this position have been made at length by me and other folks like AtS in the past, but no consensus in Heresy has ever been reached. In general, there are those who believe

1. White walkers have always been hanging around the free folk but never acting as they did in the Long Night, the free folk always knew, Craster kept the walkers from attacking via baby sacrifices -- sin-eating -- and the Watch knew of the white walkers, but never realized the walkers are the same as the mythical Popsicles.

or

2. White walkers have not been hanging around the free folk for thousands of years, the Watch totally forgot they were real and not mythical, and Craster is a kinslayer who has deluded himself and his people into thinking they were kept safe from the Popsicles and wights by a policy of dumping his sons in the woods.

There are variations within those camps, but that's the heart of it.

[Matthew.]

Mormont's final words seem completely at odds with any notion of him understanding what's going on at Craster's, and seeking any sort of protection beyond the standard protection that Craster has always provided; Mormont seems to regret the NW failing the realm, and there's no real hint that he considers the offering of Craster's sons to be important. Instead his thoughts turn to Sam spreading the news to the realm, and figuring out how to fight the "true enemy."

I think Mormont didn't put the pieces together in much the same way that Sam and Jon also fail to put the pieces together; Gilly tells Jon that Craster gives his sons to the cold gods, and Jon even infers from this that he's sacrificing to the Others, yet we see him give no particular significance to this information, even when he becomes the LC and has Sam actively seeking information about them.

Similarly, one of Craster's wives delivers the line about the sons coming, and Sam still doesn't put two and two together; not then, and not later when he's scouring the libraries.

I believe it was the same for Mormont; he sums up what is happening at Craster's keep as the Wildling gods being crueler. In my opinion, to him what was happening at Craster's keep is just more brutal superstition, like the Red Priests of the east making burnt offerings; Craster is leaving his sons out to die of exposure, and nobody is aware of what's really happening to the sons after they're left out to die.

[Matthew.]

:agree: and well said. You're not at all alone in thinking this.

Arguments based on this position have been made at length by me and other folks like AtS in the past, but no consensus in Heresy has ever been reached. In general, there are those who believe

1. White walkers have always been hanging around the free folk but never acting as they did in the Long Night, the free folk always knew, Craster kept the walkers from attacking via baby sacrifices -- sin-eating -- and the Watch knew of the white walkers, but never realized the walkers are the same as the mythical Popsicles.

or

2. White walkers have not been hanging around the free folk for thousands of years, the Watch totally forgot they were real and not mythical, and Craster is a kinslayer who has deluded himself and his people into thinking they were kept safe from the Popsicles and wights by a policy of dumping his sons in the woods.

There are variations within those camps, but that's the heart of it.

I do lean more toward the camp that holds that the White Walkers have only recently returned; there just seems to be too much ignorance, even among the Wildlings, for them to be a staple of the north.

Though, having said that, it's not entirely impossible for the WWs to have simultaneously been active, and the Free Folk to be largely ignorant of this fact; the North is huge, sparsely populated, and the people of the Ice-River Clans and Frozen Shore are separated from the rest of Westeros by an inhospitable mountain range. It could be the case that spotting the Others (or even sacrificing to them) would not be uncommon if you were living on the Frozen Shore, while the more western Free Folk haven't seen them in thousands of years.

[Black Crow]

Again a lot of this comes down to numbers. Even now we have seen very few walkers and what we're really seeing is the armies of the slain. In the vastness of the lands beyond the Wall a handful of walkers as Matthew suggests are going to be rarely seen let alone pose a serious threat. The business with Craster we know about because he lives fairly close to the Wall and is visited fairly often by both sides. In all that great vastness there could well be other Crasters we know nothing about.

I don't therefore think that the walkers have "come back" but rather that the old powers have wakened and given them wights and its the wights which have turned them from the fabled white walkers of the woods into the Others.

[Black Crow]

Mormont's final words seem completely at odds with any notion of him understanding what's going on at Craster's, and seeking any sort of protection beyond the standard protection that Craster has always provided; Mormont seems to regret the NW failing the realm, and there's no real hint that he considers the offering of Craster's sons to be important. Instead his thoughts turn to Sam spreading the news to the realm, and figuring out how to fight the "true enemy."

I think Mormont didn't put the pieces together in much the same way that Sam and Jon also fail to put the pieces together; Gilly tells Jon that Craster gives his sons to the cold gods, and Jon even infers from this that he's sacrificing to the Others, yet we see him give no particular significance to this information, even when he becomes the LC and has Sam actively seeking information about them.

Similarly, one of Craster's wives delivers the line about the sons coming, and Sam still doesn't put two and two together; not then, and not later when he's scouring the libraries.

I believe it was the same for Mormont; he sums up what is happening at Craster's keep as the Wildling gods being crueler. In my opinion, to him what was happening at Craster's keep is just more brutal superstition, like the Red Priests of the east making burnt offerings; Craster is leaving his sons out to die of exposure, and nobody is aware of what's really happening to the sons after they're left out to die.

Indeed, and that revelation is the whole chilling point of the passage under my signature block. The walkers aren't distant at all, they are far too close and are not a mysterious enemy from beyond the rainbow, but from the heart of darkness within men.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree: and well said. You're not at all alone in thinking this.

Arguments based on this position have been made at length by me and other folks like AtS in the past, but no consensus in Heresy has ever been reached. In general, there are those who believe

1. White walkers have always been hanging around the free folk but never acting as they did in the Long Night, the free folk always knew, Craster kept the walkers from attacking via baby sacrifices -- sin-eating -- and the Watch knew of the white walkers, but never realized the walkers are the same as the mythical Popsicles.

or

2. White walkers have not been hanging around the free folk for thousands of years, the Watch totally forgot they were real and not mythical, and Craster is a kinslayer who has deluded himself and his people into thinking they were kept safe from the Popsicles and wights by a policy of dumping his sons in the woods.

There are variations within those camps, but that's the heart of it.

Yeah i'm for # 2 myself.....I will add though that i nthink the WWs not being around needs to be defined a bit. I always like to add that the COTF have been around all this time but they have not been seen and that's the difference. Likewise i believe the wws have been around but they have had no dealings with humans until now.

I am still of the belief that currently, Craster's babies who are being dumped in the woods are being shredded by wights, eaten by wolves,shadow cats no and again and that's the end of that.That being said i do believe they were being protected from Wight attacks though, i just don't believe wws were taking them an turning them into wws.Them babies DEAD y'all

I disagree that the watch forgot about the Others are real else we would not have the horn blowing 3 times still in memory,we would even have gotten Gared's reservations in the prologue and why he was insisting on a fire being lit warning that it would keep at bay other things.I think they just dismissed them.

[Matthew.]

In all that great vastness there could well be other Crasters we know nothing about.

I don't therefore think that the walkers have "come back" but rather that the old powers have wakened and given them wights and its the wights which have turned them from the fabled white walkers of the woods into the Others.

The question of whether or not they've always been around, or only recently returned, seems like it could be essential to understanding their motives, which means it will probably remain a divisive issue.

Again, even though I favor the view that they've only recently returned, I do enjoy arguing from every side of an issue, and I have one more bit of text to unload from aSoS:

_____________

"Your losses haven't been that heavy."

"Not at your hands." Mance studied Jon's face. "You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing."

"The Others . . . "

"They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots."

"Nor you?"

"Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words.

___________

If we assume that the WWs continued to be present in the north, this does add some potentially interesting subtext to this conversation, especially if we assume that Mance is responsible for the heightened hostilities the WWs are displaying.

Perhaps Mance heads north, and isn't completely rid of the influence of spending most of his life as a crow, and that "brave sweet stubborn man" has it in his head that he's going to take advantage of the long summer, and rid the Free Folk of the Others forever; no more 'getting right with the gods' or praying that you'll make it through the winter without them paying you a visit.

Instead, his war fails, and by the time we actually see him in text he's already fleeing from one failed campaign; worse, he's the reason that the Others have gone from occasional hazard to all-out threat, and once true winter falls there will be nothing at all to hold them back. Thus, his bitterness that's too deep for words. He isn't just fleeing with his tail beneath his legs, his hubris has doomed his people.

[Black Crow]

Does sound a little that way, doesn't it.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...Mance studied Jon's face...

Wonder why Mance is studying Jon's face? WTF, Mance? :dunno:

[Voice]

:agree: and well said. You're not at all alone in thinking this.

Arguments based on this position have been made at length by me and other folks like AtS in the past, but no consensus in Heresy has ever been reached. In general, there are those who believe

1. White walkers have always been hanging around the free folk but never acting as they did in the Long Night, the free folk always knew, Craster kept the walkers from attacking via baby sacrifices -- sin-eating -- and the Watch knew of the white walkers, but never realized the walkers are the same as the mythical Popsicles.

or

2. White walkers have not been hanging around the free folk for thousands of years, the Watch totally forgot they were real and not mythical, and Craster is a kinslayer who has deluded himself and his people into thinking they were kept safe from the Popsicles and wights by a policy of dumping his sons in the woods.

There are variations within those camps, but that's the heart of it.

I'm having a really hard time seeing how anyone can read the books and come to the first conclusion. It's not just Mormont, literally everyone who talks about white walkers speaks of them as an ancient threat that has only recently returned.