What TV show moment succeeded in, and failed to live up to the book?

[CaptainTheo]

I'm surprised at the like for the duel between Oberyn and Gregor. Sure, Oberyn was portrayed awesomely all season, but I felt like that scene fell flat; in particular, it was too short. Also, I really missed Oberyn's public declaration that he would be Tyrion's champion, which shocked lots of people listening (I would particularly have loved to see Tywin's reaction).

[Lion_Eyes]

It didn't make any damn sense! Jaime frees him so Tyrion is happy and then thanks him, THEN TYRION DECIDES "you know what? I'm gonna go kill my father WITH THIS CROSSBOW I HAD IN MY BACK POCKET... cuz I'm pissy with my daddy [emoji37] ... who needs freedom?"

WTF???

I totally agree with this! It just seemed like Tywin's already knowing Tyrion didn't do it in the show was just shoe horned in much like Shae being in his bed (I know these things happened in ASOS but it seemed to fit better)

If I hadn't read the books I would have been wondering one of two things after Jaime let Tyrion escape: why wouldn't he immediately leave you know once everyone becomes aware of his escape or why would he go for Tywin not Cersei? (Ok I get that she would have the Kingsguard about but surely Tywin would have guards as well as Hand of the King)

Tyrion already knows that Cersei tried to kill him at Blackwater (I don't believe it was meant to be Joffrey - it was all ambiguous) and I thought they made the whole Purple Wedding reaction (much more anger than grief)/Cersei trying to butter up the judges look like she also thought he wasn't guilty but wanted to get rid of him (because she thinks he is the valonqar). Whereas in the books I may be wrong but she genuinely believes it was him so wouldn't need to manipulate the judges (or at least not so blatantly!)

[sj4iy]

I'm surprised at the like for the duel between Oberyn and Gregor. Sure, Oberyn was portrayed awesomely all season, but I felt like that scene fell flat; in particular, it was too short. Also, I really missed Oberyn's public declaration that he would be Tyrion's champion, which shocked lots of people listening (I would particularly have loved to see Tywin's reaction).

I thought it was pretty damn awesome. When I know what's coming and I'm still on the edge of my seat and yelling "HOLY SHIT!" at the screen, it's a damn good scene.

[Udvarnoky]

Something the show clowned the book on was Arya's time at Harrenhal. Having her being Tywin's cupbearer was a great move and made those scenes way more compelling. They also used it as an opportunity to give a big expositional history of Harrenhal, which is the kind of information that usually doesn't survive the transfer from GRRM's prose. The world-building is the best part of Martin's work, and it's always nice when the show takes the time to wallow in it a little.

[Dragon in the North]

The Good:

Ned's death

The Red Wedding

Arya leaving the Hound

Battle of Blackwater

Watchers on the Wall

The ironborn in season 2

Everything Stannis

Arya and Tywin

The Bad:

Yara at the Dreadfort (though one bad scene doesn't "butcher" the ironborn for me).

Littlefinger's jetpack

Jon and Quorin Halfhand

Locke being killed off too early.

Theon torture scenes.

[Dragon in the North]

If I hadn't read the books I would have been wondering one of two things after Jaime let Tyrion escape: why wouldn't he immediately leave you know once everyone becomes aware of his escape or why would he go for Tywin not Cersei? (Ok I get that she would have the Kingsguard about but surely Tywin would have guards as well as Hand of the King)

Maybe it's different for you, but all of my Unsullied friends and family had no problem believing that Tyrion would kill Tywin. Tyrion had reason to hate both him and Cersei, but it was Tywin who stood up in front of the crowd and sentenced Tyrion to death. That would have been the las thing on his mind as he was sent to his cell to await his execution.

[Hiram McDrogon]

I thought it was pretty damn awesome. When I know what's coming and I'm still on the edge of my seat and yelling "HOLY SHIT!" at the screen, it's a damn good scene.

I also loved the tension in that scene with Oberyn holding a (somewhat throwable) spear and Tywin presenting a rather tempting target. I'm not sure how many people saw it in that way, but when I watched that scene I really thought they were trying to make it look like the Mountain was about to confess, and Oberyn was about to try to kill Tywin. It added an extra dynamic that I don't believe was there in the book - it may have been the first time in the show that Tywin seemed to be in real danger.

[Kelsey094]

Best:

- Robb being named KITN

- Red Wedding

- Viper vs. The Mountain

- Dany in Astapor

- The battle against the wildlings

- Ned's beheading

- Purple wedding

- The dragons birth

- Tyrion's trial speech

- Oberyn offering Tyrion to be his champion

- Barristan Selmy discarded from the KG

- Ser Rodrik execution

Worst:

- Shae

- No Tysha

- No weasle soup

- Stannis doesn't seem to care he killed Renly

- Dany taking over Mereen.

- Dany banishing Jorah, made more sense to me in the books

- Sept scene with Jamie and Cersei

- Arya killing Rorge, it seemes way too easy

- No coldhands

- Jojen's death. It did not make sense to me why he should die there and it looked really fake.

- Talisa instead of Jeyne

- Where are the Kettleblacks?

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

Best:

- Robb being named KITN

- Red Wedding

- Viper vs. The Mountain

- Dany in Astapor

- The battle against the wildlings

- Ned's beheading

- Purple wedding

- The dragons birth

- Tyrion's trial speech

- Oberyn offering Tyrion to be his champion

- Barristan Selmy discarded from the KG

- Ser Rodrik execution

Worst:

- Shae

- No Tysha

- No weasle soup

- Stannis doesn't seem to care he killed Renly

- Dany taking over Mereen.

- Dany banishing Jorah, made more sense to me in the books

- Sept scene with Jamie and Cersei

- Arya killing Rorge, it seemes way too easy

- No coldhands

- Jojen's death. It did not make sense to me why he should die there and it looked really fake.

- Talisa instead of Jeyne

- Where are the Kettleblacks?

Actually, there's a scene in the season 2 finale where he does care.

[Udvarnoky]

Stannis absolutely is shown to be saddened by Renly's death in the show. He expresses it in a subdued, Stannis way, but it's there. Watch the very end of this scene - when he's finally left alone, he allows himself to show remorse.

[Udvarnoky]

double post

[Beanis Buttershield]

If memory serves;

Best: Red Viper vs. The Mountain was great. When Oberyn starts to lose his cool you feel the same way in book/HBO versions--the way they flipped it was :thumbsup: not to mention when Mountain knocks Oberyn's teeth out with one punch.. man that was great.

Worst: Jojen's death. I mean come on.. really? That one wight stabbing him in the chest while he calmly watches Bran. :smug:

[Kelsey094]

Ah, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about that. But still, in the books he lies awake at night because of it. I don't think they have done a very good job on showing his struggles with the murder. Stannis is not very emotional, that's true, but he is not emotionless.

[The Drunkard]

They did a backflip in season 3, too. Where book-Stannis is still hurt by it, reflecting on how Renly would've been a better Azor Ahai than himself, show-Stannis is grunting about how Renly used to laugh at him (segue into who he wants killed).

[0LordCommanderSnow0]

It would have been cool to see the "Renly's peach" scene

[Fisch]

Well, this thread's expanded a tad bit outside of assessing moments from the book, so I'll be talking about changes made, but, in no real order:

Good in Show

- Sean Bean and Peter Dinklage were impeccably cast.

- Ned (perhaps because he only lasts the one book/season) was one of if not the most successfully adapted principle character. What changes were made did not result in any big shift or betrayal of his core character.

- The battle at Castle Black in Season 4 was much more engaging than in the book IMO.

- Dany taking the Unsullied and burning their masters was extremely well-done.

- They found a way to make the Red Wedding even more brutal, and it actually had a point.

- Tyrion's trial, and the way he stood up to Tywin, had much more impact on me on-screen than it did on the page.

- I found Oberyn a more interesting and fun character in the show than in the book, and thus, his death threw me more in the show.

- Taking advantage of the medium for things like Tyrion's three stories to catch Cersei's spy.

- I think adding in new material for Renly was a smart move. I never understood why people liked him so much in the books; frankly, he struck me as an unnecessary plot flourish a tougher editor would've insisted that GRRM cut. Actually getting to know something of what he thought and what relationships he had, I was glad to have him in the show, brief as his stay was.

- Shae was a much more interesting figure in the show IMO, and I loved what all the new scenes between her and Tyrion brought out of the latter. Her scenes with Sansa, though fewer, were also very nice. She made a better figure for Sansa to put some faith in than Ser Dontos, IMO, even if taking Ser Dontos out meant that his very brief reappearance in Season 4 felt underdeveloped and comical.

- Osha is a much more interesting figure in the show IMO, and her relationship with Bran and the Winterfell household is very touching. Some of my favourite stuff from Season 2.

- Maester Luwin seemed a more solid, warm figure in the show. I wouldn't call BookLuwin cold, and I wouldn't call him inconstant, but he was a tad more...I don't know that "bumbling" is a fair term, but I can't think of a milder one.

- Expanding Theon's brotherly feelings toward Robb down to Bran. Made his actions at Winterfell all the more heartbreaking.

- Related to that - having Rodrik Cassel be the one Theon takes the head off. God, that was sad.

- In simplifying things at King's Landing vis a vis Tyrion's consolidation of power in Season 2, Bronn's part got built up. Good move, 'cause those actors have great chemistry.

- Robb being named King in the North was a great scene.'

- The battle-you-don't-see where the northmen all cried out "King in the North!" was great. Wish the show relied on this kind of "less is more" policy more often.

- Aging the kids up. Technically, most of the characters are aged up, but it makes the most difference with the kids. Dany, Robb, and Jon especially. GRRM does a great job with Dany's chapters, and I don't think of her age when I read them. But that's only due to the quality of the writing; if I stop and think about it, it's a huge demand on suspension of disbelief to buy a girl that young thinking and doing the things she thinks and does. Her story is more believable, especially in cinematic/TV terms, with an older girl. Same goes for Robb. And the instances in AGoT where Robb acts like a hotheaded pouty teenager were cut in adaptation, as is appropriate. Too bad they didn't do that with Jon (more on that later...)

- "Rains of Castamere" sounds great.

- Ser Alliser. This is in part due to the actor, who is delightfully hateful as an embittered old drillmaster. But ShowAlliser seems braver and more competent than his book counterpart, and unlike the book, it is Slynt who sucks up to him and not the other way around. For some reason, I like that dynamic better. There isn't a great difference between Show and BookAlliser; ShowAlliser certainly isn't deeper or more nuanced; but what difference there is creates a more fun character IMO.

Bad in Show

- Taking out the reveal about Tysha to Tyrion. I get the need to simplify things, but that's rather important to Tyrion's character.

- Costume design. Calling this "bad" isn't fair, as I don't really have a problem with the costume design on its own. But as described by GRRM, the costuming of Planetos is so varied, and so well-thought-out, and so interesting, that it's a shame so much of it was discarded. I just know there's a way to get the Boltons in pink without getting laughs!

- I don't think the Reeds are anywhere near as compelling as their book counterparts, Meera especially.

- Somewhat related: Jojen's death, the arrival at the big weirwood, and the appearance of Brynden and the Children of the Forest seemed rather tossed off, and not given nearly enough weight.

- All the changes made to Cersei in the name of making her more "sympathetic." On the score of adaptation, it's resulted in a character that's almost (not quite) a whole different persona from her book counterpart. Taken on her own terms, ShowCersei gets so many speeches devoted to how miserable and damaged she is that it ends up being an exercise in self-pity IMO, and makes her annoying rather than interesting. And, looking at it with cold logic - most of those speeches so far have been to Tyrion, someone she actively hates and distrusts, or to other people she has reason not to be open to. There is no sense in having her be so open, vulnerable, and honest so often to so many figures she doesn't want to let her guard down around.

- Stannis. Again, from an adaptation standpoint, he's rendered into a very different figure than he is in the book. Again, from a logic standpoint, the changes made greatly undermine the faith and loyalty Davos has for him. BookStannis isn't a favourite of mine, and he's clearly an unhappy and unlikable prick, but we do actually see him, and hear of him, being the just man everyone says he is, and he's clearly uncomfortable with aspects of Melissandre's religion and way of building him up. On the morality spectrum, he's pure grey, a Lawful Neutral. ShowStannis is coloured in much too dark a shade of grey to be considered a fair adaptation IMO.

- On a related note: if Bran can be cut out of an entire season (when he still has material from ADwD that could be used), why couldn't Stannis be kept out of Season 4 until the big reveal at the end? Every one of his scenes in that season felt like useless padding.

- On another related note: most of Dany's material in Season 4 felt like useless padding, and the exile of Jorah didn't have nearly enough of a build-up or payoff IMO. Neither did the chaining of the dragons.

- On yet another related note: having so much time between Jon altering the Night's Watch and the actual battle resulted in - you guessed it - useless padding. That escapade at Craster's Keep may have given some action to the series, but it wasn't worth it.

- One one more related note: Arya's adventures with the Hound were needlessly padded in Season 4 (can you tell which was my least favourite season?)

- The Halfhand, and Jon capturing Ygritte, were terribly handled IMO.

- Robert wasn't exactly unfaithfully adapted, but we only saw his oafish side for too much of his time in the show. Aside from the invented scene with Cersei, there wasn't really a whole sequence devoted to his vulnerable side.

- Related note: we only saw Edmure's oafish side.

- I prefer Sansa's story in the Vale the way it is in the books, not the way it seems to be shaping up for the show.

- I get why he's been left out, but I do miss Kevan Lannister.

- I more than understand why they can't do more with the direwolves, but it is a shame we don't see more of them.

- Going way overboard in showing Theon's torture. I get it - you wanted to push the audience and make them uncomfortable with the price Theon paid for his sins. You can still push that too far, to the point it loses its impact and just becomes yet another case of Useless Padding (Copyright 2015).

- Perhaps the worst case of Useless Padding in the entire series: what was the point of Yara going to the Dreadfort?

- I enjoy the Battle of Blackwater Bay in the show, but compared to the book, it does seem quite a bit more simple in terms of strategy.

- The aging up didn't work as well with Jon, at least not in the early seasons, for one big reason: the material that showed Jon acting like a sullen teenage boy wasn't cut or modified to reflect his being aged up, leaving a young man acting like a young boy.

- GRRM has said that his worldview is "anything but nihilistic" in response to criticism (or praise) that ASoIaF was so. He's apparently described himself as a humanist and romantic (not seen those interviews myself, so that may be wrong). And he's flat-out declared the Starks (and the Night's Watch) to be heroes. At a certain point, then, it becomes extremely frustrating to have the show undercut the Starks, and Stark morality, at seemingly every step. Boosting the number of times Ned's called fool/idiot/whatever; boosting the Hound's dark assumptions about the world he tries to pass on Sansa; the Hound mocking Arya's fighting style and Syrio in a scene that's cut together to support everything he says; the Halfhand being turned into such a cynic (a change that has no real payoff, I might add); I could go on. And it's not just the Starks; those aspects of ASoIaF that could be called humanistic or romantic are often tossed out of the show, and dark things GRRM is content to imply become extremely graphic. I do enjoy the show quite a bit, but in the same way that Peter Jackson's more childish excesses make me wonder sometimes if he was the best fit for Tolkien, I sometimes wonder if D&D were the best fit for Martin. (BTW, when I say "sometimes," I mean "not really, but they do frustrate me a lot.")

[NightGathers998]

Failed: House of the Undying,

Succeeded: Dany in Astapor, Samwell's intro to the Night's Watch

There are others, but I'm drawing a blank

[RezBarbie24]

Well, this thread's expanded a tad bit outside of assessing moments from the book, so I'll be talking about changes made, but, in no real order:

Good in Show

- Sean Bean and Peter Dinklage were impeccably cast.

- Ned (perhaps because he only lasts the one book/season) was one of if not the most successfully adapted principle character. What changes were made did not result in any big shift or betrayal of his core character.

- The battle at Castle Black in Season 4 was much more engaging than in the book IMO.

- Dany taking the Unsullied and burning their masters was extremely well-done.

- They found a way to make the Red Wedding even more brutal, and it actually had a point.

- Tyrion's trial, and the way he stood up to Tywin, had much more impact on me on-screen than it did on the page.

- I found Oberyn a more interesting and fun character in the show than in the book, and thus, his death threw me more in the show.

- Taking advantage of the medium for things like Tyrion's three stories to catch Cersei's spy.

- I think adding in new material for Renly was a smart move. I never understood why people liked him so much in the books; frankly, he struck me as an unnecessary plot flourish a tougher editor would've insisted that GRRM cut. Actually getting to know something of what he thought and what relationships he had, I was glad to have him in the show, brief as his stay was.

- Shae was a much more interesting figure in the show IMO, and I loved what all the new scenes between her and Tyrion brought out of the latter. Her scenes with Sansa, though fewer, were also very nice. She made a better figure for Sansa to put some faith in than Ser Dontos, IMO, even if taking Ser Dontos out meant that his very brief reappearance in Season 4 felt underdeveloped and comical.

- Osha is a much more interesting figure in the show IMO, and her relationship with Bran and the Winterfell household is very touching. Some of my favourite stuff from Season 2.

- Maester Luwin seemed a more solid, warm figure in the show. I wouldn't call BookLuwin cold, and I wouldn't call him inconstant, but he was a tad more...I don't know that "bumbling" is a fair term, but I can't think of a milder one.

- Expanding Theon's brotherly feelings toward Robb down to Bran. Made his actions at Winterfell all the more heartbreaking.

- Related to that - having Rodrik Cassel be the one Theon takes the head off. God, that was sad.

- In simplifying things at King's Landing vis a vis Tyrion's consolidation of power in Season 2, Bronn's part got built up. Good move, 'cause those actors have great chemistry.

- Robb being named King in the North was a great scene.'

- The battle-you-don't-see where the northmen all cried out "King in the North!" was great. Wish the show relied on this kind of "less is more" policy more often.

- Aging the kids up. Technically, most of the characters are aged up, but it makes the most difference with the kids. Dany, Robb, and Jon especially. GRRM does a great job with Dany's chapters, and I don't think of her age when I read them. But that's only due to the quality of the writing; if I stop and think about it, it's a huge demand on suspension of disbelief to buy a girl that young thinking and doing the things she thinks and does. Her story is more believable, especially in cinematic/TV terms, with an older girl. Same goes for Robb. And the instances in AGoT where Robb acts like a hotheaded pouty teenager were cut in adaptation, as is appropriate. Too bad they didn't do that with Jon (more on that later...)

- "Rains of Castamere" sounds great.

Bad in Show

- Taking out the reveal about Tysha to Tyrion. I get the need to simplify things, but that's rather important to Tyrion's character.

- Costume design. Calling this "bad" isn't fair, as I don't really have a problem with the costume design on its own. But as described by GRRM, the costuming of Planetos is so varied, and so well-thought-out, and so interesting, that it's a shame so much of it was discarded. I just know there's a way to get the Boltons in pink without getting laughs!

- I don't think the Reeds are anywhere near as compelling as their book counterparts, Meera especially.

- Somewhat related: Jojen's death, the arrival at the big weirwood, and the appearance of Brynden and the Children of the Forest seemed rather tossed off, and not given nearly enough weight.

- All the changes made to Cersei in the name of making her more "sympathetic." On the score of adaptation, it's resulted in a character that's almost (not quite) a whole different persona from her book counterpart. Taken on her own terms, ShowCersei gets so many speeches devoted to how miserable and damaged she is that it ends up being an exercise in self-pity IMO, and makes her annoying rather than interesting. And, looking at it with cold logic - most of those speeches so far have been to Tyrion, someone she actively hates and distrusts, or to other people she has reason not to be open to. There is no sense in having her be so open, vulnerable, and honest so often to so many figures she doesn't want to let her guard down around.

- Stannis. Again, from an adaptation standpoint, he's rendered into a very different figure than he is in the book. Again, from a logic standpoint, the changes made greatly undermine the faith and loyalty Davos has for him. BookStannis isn't a favourite of mine, and he's clearly an unhappy and unlikable prick, but we do actually see him, and hear of him, being the just man everyone says he is, and he's clearly uncomfortable with aspects of Melissandre's religion and way of building him up. On the morality spectrum, he's pure grey, a Lawful Neutral. ShowStannis is coloured in much too dark a shade of grey to be considered a fair adaptation IMO.

- On a related note: if Bran can be cut out of an entire season (when he still has material from ADwD that could be used), why couldn't Stannis be kept out of Season 4 until the big reveal at the end? Every one of his scenes in that season felt like useless padding.

- On another related note: most of Dany's material in Season 4 felt like useless padding, and the exile of Jorah didn't have nearly enough of a build-up or payoff IMO. Neither did the chaining of the dragons.

- On yet another related note: having so much time between Jon altering the Night's Watch and the actual battle resulted in - you guessed it - useless padding. That escapade at Craster's Keep may have given some action to the series, but it wasn't worth it.

- One one more related note: Arya's adventures with the Hound were needlessly padded in Season 4 (can you tell which was my least favourite season?)

- The Halfhand, and Jon capturing Ygritte, were terribly handled IMO.

- Robert wasn't exactly unfaithfully adapted, but we only saw his oafish side for too much of his time in the show. Aside from the invented scene with Cersei, there wasn't really a whole sequence devoted to his vulnerable side.

- Related note: we only saw Edmure's oafish side.

- I prefer Sansa's story in the Vale the way it is in the books, not the way it seems to be shaping up for the show.

- I get why he's been left out, but I do miss Kevan Lannister.

- I more than understand why they can't do more with the direwolves, but it is a shame we don't see more of them.

- Going way overboard in showing Theon's torture. I get it - you wanted to push the audience and make them uncomfortable with the price Theon paid for his sins. You can still push that too far, to the point it loses its impact and just becomes yet another case of Useless Padding (Copyright 2015).

- Perhaps the worst case of Useless Padding in the entire series: what was the point of Yara going to the Dreadfort?

- I enjoy the Battle of Blackwater Bay in the show, but compared to the book, it does seem quite a bit more simple in terms of strategy.

- The aging up didn't work as well with Jon, at least not in the early seasons, for one big reason: the material that showed Jon acting like a sullen teenage boy wasn't cut or modified to reflect his being aged up, leaving a young man acting like a young boy.

- GRRM has said that his worldview is "anything but nihilistic" in response to criticism (or praise) that ASoIaF was so. He's apparently described himself as a humanist and romantic (not seen those interviews myself, so that may be wrong). And he's flat-out declared the Starks (and the Night's Watch) to be heroes. At a certain point, then, it becomes extremely frustrating to have the show undercut the Starks, and Stark morality, at seemingly every step. Boosting the number of times Ned's called fool/idiot/whatever; boosting the Hound's dark assumptions about the world he tries to pass on Sansa; the Hound mocking Arya's fighting style and Syrio in a scene that's cut together to support everything he says; the Halfhand being turned into such a cynic (a change that has no real payoff, I might add); I could go on. And it's not just the Starks; those aspects of ASoIaF that could be called humanistic or romantic are often tossed out of the show, and dark things GRRM is content to imply become extremely graphic. I do enjoy the show quite a bit, but in the same way that Peter Jackson's more childish excesses make me wonder sometimes if he was the best fit for Tolkien, I sometimes wonder if D&D were the best fit for Martin. (BTW, when I say "sometimes," I mean "not really, but they do frustrate me a lot.")

Everything this guy/girl up[emoji115] [emoji115] here said!!!

[aFeastForDragons]

Stannis absolutely is shown to be saddened by Renly's death in the show. He expresses it in a subdued, Stannis way, but it's there. Watch the very end of this scene - when he's finally left alone, he allows himself to show remorse.

Good spot, never noticed that part.

[sj4iy]

Stannis is also remorseful after his failure at Blackwater. He's like "I killed my brother for this!"