markg171 Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 You are correct. Mark hasn't bothered to read the rules for the joust, as usual. In the beginning the four Whent brothers and an uncle were the initial champions. They could be challenged individually by any newcomers. We know that at some point during the jousts (lasting ten days, as I recall, though someone had found an indication it may have lasted longer) the Knight of the Laughing Tree challenged a pitchfork knight (House Haigh), a porcupine knight (House Blount), and the last a knight of two towers (House Frey). There were two more champions which were not challenged. Rightfully the Knight of the Laughing Tree had taken the position of three champions, which would make the total champions number three at that point, unless GRRM has other rules in mind. ETA: Perhaps by not returning the next day, the KotLT forfeited the position as a champion. Then it reverted to the previous three, as in the end Rhaegar defeats five champions. - When the KOTLT didn't show up, there were 2 champions, not 5 “No,” said Meera. “That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end.” - The jousting lasted 5 days, not 10. “Five days of jousting were planned,” she said. “There was a great seven-sided melee as well, and archery and axethrowing, a horse race and tourney of singers. ..” - Nothing says the other 2 champions weren't challenged. We know only that the KOTLT challenged the 3 who mattered to them. But Rhaegar and Barristan must have been the other champions and they had challengers “The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a melee in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all.” If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Barristan says that Rhaegar beat everyone, and that he beat everyone but Rhaegar who he faced in the final. So they were both in the tournament from the beginning. They didn't just show up on the last day. So Rhaegar was one of the champions, then when he beat Barristan, who must have been the other champion, he became the champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Actually, speaking of Harrenhal, Oswell is never specifically noted as having been beaten like the other champions were. Yet he must have been for Barristan and Rhaegar to have been the finalists.Barristan says that Rhaegar had his secrets and specifically linked those secrets to Harrenhal and trusting Arthur. And Lord Whent called the tournament after a visit from Oswell. So if I had to guess, I'd guess that Rhaegar's championship lineage came from Oswell and not one of the brothers. So Oswell could have been in on things more than simply giving his brother the idea to call the tournament as a pretext to having all the Lords assemble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helstark Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Hi *waves* new to the thread and new(ish) to the boards. I feel that even if Jon finds out who his parents are that he won't go around proclaiming who he is. I don't think he will interact with fAegon, he will be used to develop danys arc to bring her to westeros. If Jon sits on the iron throne he will do so inspite of his heritage, it will be because of his honour to the NW and a natural progression in his fight with the othors. However by doing this he embodies his bloodlines completely. Sorry if this has been said just wanted to put this down somewhere and no one I know reads the book and the show watchers haven't got R+L=J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Welcome to the forum and welcome to R+L=J, @Helstark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozemarijn Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I have another question, who are the 'they' who found Ned holding Lyanna? Howland and ...I was thinking, Ned said Arthur might have killed him if it were not for Howland. We all think he did it by a smart fighting move, but maybe it was something more to do with calling a truce. If those three were the last standing, maybe they discovered there was a babe and not just Lyanna. And maybe Howland was the one who realised this was the new heir and stopped Arthur by pointing out he needed them to keep his friend's child safe.Only question is, where is Arthur now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 I have another question, who are the 'they' who found Ned holding Lyanna? Howland and ... That is a good question that has not yet been answered. A simple suggestion is "the wetnurse" who might or might not have been the fabled Wylla. Others think there may have been a few more servants at the Tower of Joy. We'll have to wait to be told more in upcoming books. And another question: Only question is, where is Arthur now? Under one of the eight cairns made from the stones of the Tower of Joy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Only question is, where is Arthur now? Somewhere around WF. He could be the Hooded man from all we know this far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, I don't see Dayne being alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, I don't see Dayne being alive. I find your lack of faith disturbing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Welcome to the forums and RLJ, Helstark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Welcome to the forums and RLJ, Helstark! Ditto! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSarellaX Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'd love it if Dayne was alive, but IIRC, Ned thinks of him as dead in his POV, and I see no reason for him to lie to himself. :( So, if Jon had grown up with R and L (let's ignore Elia for a moment as that would only complicate things) do you think he would get along with his parents? I think he would love Lyanna, but I wonder if Rhaegar wouldn'd be too distant and expect too much from Jon for them to grow close to each other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's Penguins Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Why the hell bother to make up a new mother for Jon everybook yet still stuff it with foreshadowing why would he do that whyyyyy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Creighton Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, I don't see Dayne being alive.Shhhhh, you need to be more careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blonderaven Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I have another question, who are the 'they' who found Ned holding Lyanna? Howland and ... I'm more likely to believe that this was a grammatical error, considering the other minor typographical errors and inconsistencies we've seen before. Only question is, where is Arthur now? It would be a rather neat plot device to have him around to be a reliable source of revelation. But by neat I mean too convenient. I, for one, would be disappointed. Also, as said before, Ned thinks of him as dead. GRRM seems to have gone to pains to make sure that Ned's thoughts concerning Jon leave the requisite doors open for R+L=J to work. It wouldn't follow if he suddenly developed Unreliable Narrator syndrome just to keep alive a fringe character for some Deus Ex later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozemarijn Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'd love it if Dayne was alive, but IIRC, Ned thinks of him as dead in his POV, and I see no reason for him to lie to himself. :(Do you have textual evidence for this?About the servants: lords and ladies do not have servants, especially kings and queens. Which is why so many of them die in childbirth, the people who 'serve' them are not taken on because they are capable but because they have a certain position. Like Robert, his servants were Lannister family members of noble birth, Margaery has her cousins, Tyrion has Podrick. Lyanna might work with servants because she is not important enough, but not Rhaegar surely?All right another guess at who might be there: Ashara? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helstark Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I thought maybe it was wylla who was one of the 'they'. She would have been near the ToJ and would fit the bill of a midwife/wet nurse. This would also help with the 'cover up' and a wet nurse would be needed for a new born baby with a dead mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I thought maybe it was wylla who was one of the 'they'. She would have been near the ToJ and would fit the bill of a midwife/wet nurse. This would also help with the 'cover up' and a wet nurse would be needed for a new born baby with a dead mother. I agree. I think it was Wylla and a few select servants. After Lyanna dies, Ned pulls down the TOJ. Since baby Jon was likely at the TOJ, he is now a starving infant without his mother's milk (since L is dead) but Ned takes the time to pull down a tower and bury 8 people? Not likely if Jon is screaming for food. So, Wylla was there and could provide Jon with milk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woofless Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I presumed the 'they' was their retinue. And servants in the Tower.Despite the artwork out there, would lords of Westeros really be by themselves? Whether traveling across country or staying at the the TOJ?They would have squires at the very least, cooks, grooms etc. And I suspect some minor lordlings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helstark Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 It would also explain why wylla is an accepted mother substitute. The next time bed would be seen by anyone he turns up with a very stark looking baby and a lactating 'mother' which means bed wouldn't have to outright lie just deflect which, as we know, he was very good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.