Heresy 148

[Black Crow]

If the Children are able to predict the seasons, does this stem from a greenseer using the weirnet to see the past and somehow figuring things out that way?

Quite possibly or even simply down to natural observation, although greenseers are probably more in keeping with the story.

[King Tyrion XX]

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror.He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men.

This quote reminds me of the NK. Except he enslaved his people instead of NW, married a tiger woman instead of ice, cast down the true gods to worship a black stone= sacrificing to Others. With the Maiden Made of Light being the COTF who couldn't be found and Lion of Night the WWs/wights.....

Which leads me to a pot so cracked it's blowing in the wind....the Night's King started the Long Night.

[MaesterSam]

Welp, since the last few pages have essentially been questioning whether or not the WB is just muddying the waters without actually revealing anything, there's this appropriate image:

http://i.imgur.com/cNpgK8m.jpg

The full video: http://bcove.me/mh18wlmq

David Benioff, one half of D&D from the show adaptation, wearing a Ralph Lauren polo with a very obvious "R+L=(Jockey)" in the upper corner, while being interviewed about Game of Thrones playing at IMAX. That's some master-level trolling

Jockey: someone who rides. "Three mounts must you ride..." Rhaegar + Lyanna = Dany

[Summer Is Coming!]

This quote reminds me of the NK. Except he enslaved his people instead of NW, married a tiger woman instead of ice, cast down the true gods to worship a black stone= sacrificing to Others. With the Maiden Made of Light being the COTF who couldn't be found and Lion of Night the WWs/wights.....

Which leads me to a pot so cracked it's blowing in the wind....the Night's King started the Long Night.

The Bloodstone Emperor isn't the only person from Essos similar to the Night's King. We also have the Empress of Leng who was finally overthrown by Yi Ti. It's interesting that both the Long Night and the Night's King have very similar counterparts throughout the world. All we need is the Rhoynar version of the Night's King.

[Voice]

I'm far behind after a busy week and starting a new book ;)

Delurking and catching up now...

Quite possibly or even simply down to natural observation, although greenseers are probably more in keeping with the story.

If the seasons exist, as they are, due to magical cause(s), must not such seasonal analysis also be "magical" (rather than "natural")?

[Matthew.]

Since half of the stuff in the WB comes with a built-in disclaimer ("...but we at the Citadel think this tale is bullshit"), I think things like the Bloodstone Emperor represent an opportunity to have some fun with the setting, and maybe let a little bit of his sci-fi roots show, without it being treated as canon. The Emperor being a part of the Long Night, and worshiping a black stone from the sky is sort of sci-fi appropriate-- meteoric impact happens to be one of the things that could scientifically cause Long Night-esque conditions.

And, more broadly, all of these tales reinforce the theme he was going for with the Red Comet in aCoK, where we get several interpretations of the same event, all influenced by personal and cultural biases and legends.

[Black Crow]

I'm far behind after a busy week and starting a new book ;)

Delurking and catching up now...

If the seasons exist, as they are, due to magical cause(s), must not such seasonal analysis also be "magical" (rather than "natural")?

That might be the case. It's well known that birds and other animals are far more sensitive than we are to approaching events such as a bad winter or even earthquakes, and that those familiar with said birds and animals can make predictions based on their behaviour. The children would appear to be well suited to making such observations and interpreting them, but I do agree that it would be more consistent with the story as told so far that it might more likely be through the practical application of magic and perhaps by virtue of their connection to the weirwoods, that greenseers should be particularly attuned to what's looming - and that's why the old powers are awakening and Bran has been summoned or lured [take your pick] northwards because they, Bloodraven and any other living greenseers, are aware that Winter is coming.

It may likewise be significant that the maesters of the Citadel are able to predict the coming of Winter, albeit not quite so quick off the mark as the greenseers, because they were long long ago taught the lore and how to look out for squalls, which of course is why they have those white ravens who hate the black summer ones.

[Joe Pine]

This quote reminds me of the NK. Except he enslaved his people instead of NW, married a tiger woman instead of ice, cast down the true gods to worship a black stone= sacrificing to Others. With the Maiden Made of Light being the COTF who couldn't be found and Lion of Night the WWs/wights.....

Which leads me to a pot so cracked it's blowing in the wind....the Night's King started the Long Night.

The bit about the Sinister Church of Starry Wisdom made me chuckle. Would that be a church with a seven pointed star?

[Black Crow]

And, more broadly, all of these tales reinforce the theme he was going for with the Red Comet in aCoK, where we get several interpretations of the same event, all influenced by personal and cultural biases and legends.

It would be ironic of course if the stories of the Last Hero and the Nights King did not originate in Westeros and were then carried far and wide to be adapted to local cultures as Azor Ahai and the rest, but actually came from say Asshai in the first place and were adopted into Westerosi mythology

[Voice]

All of which comes back to the central thesis that the crypts are nothing of the sort but the caves of a hollow or sidhe hill and that the ringwork and eventual stone castle of Winterfell was built around it. In other words these caves are not merely a feature of Winterfell, they are why Winterfell was built there in the first place and central to the forgotten family secret

I remember you saying this before and I liked it then too. Putting my own spin on it, perhaps this is the very hill/hollow the Last Hero ventured to. If he truly won back what the armies of men had lost, it makes sense if WF was part of the 'cold dead north' for a time.

As to the structure of the crypts, an upside down pyramid is what I'm thinking... the original Stark in Winterfell at the furthest point below, with his progeny spreading out above. A literal 'family tree'... hmmm

[Joe Pine]

Since half of the stuff in the WB comes with a built-in disclaimer ("...but we at the Citadel think this tale is bullshit"), I think things like the Bloodstone Emperor represent an opportunity to have some fun with the setting, and maybe let a little bit of his sci-fi roots show, without it being treated as canon. The Emperor being a part of the Long Night, and worshiping a black stone from the sky is sort of sci-fi appropriate-- meteoric impact happens to be one of the things that could scientifically cause Long Night-esque conditions.

And, more broadly, all of these tales reinforce the theme he was going for with the Red Comet in aCoK, where we get several interpretations of the same event, all influenced by personal and cultural biases and legends.

It's almost like 'what comet' now that we have all this additional background.

[Voice]

That might be the case. It's well known that birds and other animals are far more sensitive than we are to approaching events such as a bad winter or even earthquakes, and that those familiar with said birds and animals can make predictions based on their behaviour. The children would appear to be well suited to making such observations and interpreting them, but I do agree that it would be more consistent with the story as told so far that it might more likely be through the practical application of magic and perhaps by virtue of their connection to the weirwoods, that greenseers should be particularly attuned to what's looming - and that's why the old powers are awakening and Bran has been summoned or lured [take your pick] northwards because they, Bloodraven and any other living greenseers, are aware that Winter is coming.

That might hit the nail on the head. If crows/ravens, as birds, are able to predict the coming season, and a greenseer is slipping into its skin, the magical GS would then sense the coming season via the bird's "natural" senses.

This would also explain the import of ravens/crows for Singers, Weirwood branches, Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch, and even the Citadel and the story itself as a whole.

. . . taking this a bit further, the existential concept of Ravenry, or Crow'ry ;)

this may provide us with the consciousness that is the Three Eyed Crow. Rather than the 3EC simply being Bloodraven's dreamworld manifestation of himself, which never seems to be definitively acknowledged in text, it may instead be that the Three Eyed Crow is the eldest, purest harbinger of Winter. The birds' (Old Gods'?) way of warning the Stark in Winterfell that "he must live" because "Winter is Coming."

It may likewise be significant that the maesters of the Citadel are able to predict the coming of Winter, albeit not quite so quick off the mark as the greenseers, because they were long long ago taught the lore and how to look out for squalls, which of course is why they have those white ravens who hate the black summer ones.

I don't know that the maesters of the Citadel are able to predict the coming of Winter.

Rather, I think they merely attest to it's arrival once it comes. I'm thinking of the girl in the Lindsay Lohan epic 'Mean Girls' whose nipples can't really predict the rain, but they know once it's raining... :lol:

[wolfmaid7]

It's a good question and I'm rather inclined to wonder whether it is at once unanswerable and incapable of resolution.

This is, [ahem] the Song of Ice and Fire set in a world of strange seasons where long [and occasionally really long] summers and winters alternate. GRRM has told us that there is a magical origin for the dodgy seasons rather than a natural one and so not unreasonably a presumption that it can be fixed and that it will be accomplished or at least the process initiated by the characters here present, and indeed there are some who go so far as to proclaim that Jon Snow who supposedly represents a union of Ice and Fire will be the one to do it.

Really?

There is a bit of a problem with the dodgy seasons concept in that something like that will affect the whole globe in one way or another, which is what I think GRRM is addressing in the World Book, although given what he says of mythos and the mists of time in SSMs I'd venture to suggest that most of it is a deliberate recreation of mediaeval travellers' tales which like those of our world are nonsense.

What I'm rather more strongly moving towards is the post-apocalyptic world which I spoke about last night, albeit a magical rather than a nuclear apocalypse. In other words that it was caused by the black basalt lot long long ago and that to all intents and purposes the world is as it is. The seasons as are they are and cannot be fixed. There always will be seasons of variable length and occasional very long ones. What we are therefore dealing with in this story is how people react to and take advantage of those seasons, and that comes back in large part to what we've discussed before about the Heart of Darkness.

Winter is coming and this is about what happens next, not how it might be averted in one tiny corner of the globe.

I disagree and agree with some of the things you said.I don't think it's a matter of the seasons being fixed more that they will become balanced and that will come at a high price.Something i think will happen in the end not with Jon being the union of but him being a part of it.Being a song and having a song is two different thing and the wider forum is forgetting that.I think what is happening is an Age changing event and that means what was will no longer be and something new will take its place.Let say the black basalt caused this event long ago( very possible) it is not implausible that in the end Westeros gets a balanced season.The bitter sweet ending ofcourse will be what Bran and Jon will constantly have to do( Jon part of that equastion for sure,i don't know about Bran).

I do think the Greenseers have the ability to manipulate the seasons we have seen that very clrealy in the text at lease in my opinion but what i think is happening and it comes down the heart of the Greenseers involve,what their motives are.Greenseers are linked intricately to nature that's which makes them very interesting because they are humans with the ability to link with nature.I believe in the end there will be something to having two brothers being Avatars over different halves of the year or one taking on that role so the other could have a normal life.It can go either way,but i don't think the seasons are going to remain in turmoil.I think for the first time in the memory of man in Westeros there seasons are going to be a refelction of our own and not this crazy lengths.

If it is the case that the magic is all just setting, and isn't essential to the plot, then how do we fit the popsicles/wights into the theory? They obviously are important to the plot. A conflict between popsicles/wights and someone has been set up since the beginning of the novel. If your theory is correct, and its true that popsicles are just part of the new normal cycle in this world, then it seems like any conflict with popsicles is just pointless. The popsicles are going to come south. They'll kill some people. Maybe they get past the wall and kill some more people. Then one day they start pulling out, and all the characters get to dream of the coming spring? Is that all the books are going to end up being?

Yeah i don't by this if it going to be bitter sweet.As i said in my post above this about an age coming to a close and what the next age is going to look like is going to be dependent on what happens at the ending of this one and how the sacrifice of certain characters are going to affect it.Many heresies now i've been saying what is unatural is the Wights that is the breaking of the law of Death.The Popsicles and COTF are natural they are elementals in service to GSs so they must not be destroyed in anyway.Loosing them is loosing the magic ingrained in the seasons.So what has to happen and to go back to an old heresy statement they must be bridled.Bridled by a heart that can overcome darkness,wield power and not abuse it for his or her own can.No what duty for all means.

I think Martin loves laying clues to his story. I firmly believe most of the bizarre details he puts in the books (like the tortuous details he gives during people's meals) are also fairly whimsical clues as to what's happening behind the scenes and where the story is headed.

My guess is Martin's contributions to the World Book basically serve the same purpose. This is the reason Martin gives us the image of the dragon biting its tail, history repeats itself, we just have to decipher exactly how.

I also don't think Martin is a world builder in the vein of Tolkein. I think a lot of the details he provides us about his world probably is to either advance the main plot or to provide clues to the main plot. In many ways Martin is writing the book more like a mystery than a fantasy book. He's subtly laying clues through the tremendous amount of info in his book, and he seems to enjoy a fair amount of misdirection as well.

I think one of his tricks is playing up the paternal Houses. Our attention is always focused on the dragons and direwolves and we don't pay attention to the maternal lines that run between the houses in their crooked ways and don't have a fancy sigil to hold our attention.

This is also why I doubt that the shiny icy creatures that are thrust in front of us are the true antagonists in the story. My guess is we need to expect the creatures that we only see out the corner of our eyes.

Word,i have taken to calling the WWs and i'll put the COTF into that as Westrosi boogie men.If you recall in the Wildling thread i advocated we should entertain the thought that their is a magical matruarchial system in play. At the root of some of these major prophecies and transformation is a woman and we should remember in the Oak and Holy King myth the goddess was the land she who chose her consort king.We can't dismiss that some of these women orchastrated a lot of hook ups and were there for major transformations.

Then their greenseers recognise that Winter is coming and recognise also that it offers an opportunity to redress the balance. Hence their withdrawing from the sight of man and disappearing into their burrows, not because they are responsible for the Winter but because they know what's coming, and then having done so and let the first blasts of Winter do their worst, they then work their magic to sent out the walkers and the wights to complete what the ancient curse has begun.

Because the seasons business is an ancient curse from before the dawn of days there may be nothing they they or anyone else can do to end it, but our characters can deal with those operating under the cover of it.

This i don't quite agree with,i believe the GS can 100% manipulate the seasons and each in their turn have been doing so,they are what is magically wrong and you can't get rid of them now but they can be essential in reshaping.Depending on the heart of the one in the seat.

There is an elephant in the room that we haven't talked about with regards to what magically cold have gone wrong worldwide to mess everthing up. One thing that keeps popping up over and over in other locations hence the repetition of magical stories and it seems to be the root of this- "Massive blood sacrifices" you take the blood ritualistically with intent and merge it nature and you get something new.You get nature awakening by merging two beings together.The Weirwoods know certain blood its tasted it,enveloped it blood awoke it ,so has every creature that has felt mingling of spirit with the likes of Jon it in the blood.Same with the Targs and their Dragons.But we are here now,so what are these sympathetic humans goint to do? What choices,hard choices wil they be forced to make?

[Voice]

Are we talking architecture or Amputechture

Stains fall into the brick wall severed

Four of them were watching

While the other three did hide

The culprit spat the seed from a podium of glass

Shattering the sigil that you thought was deitized

This conjures up some cool ideas.

What if the Wall is simply a window, through which we can see the past sins of Men?

What if the Wall is simply a mirror, from which the sins of Men are echoed?

It's hardly written in stone that Lyanna was the KotLT.

Agreed, but she's on the short-list.

Wow, some of those last posts. lol

In all honesty though, MC just doesn't make sense no matter how I approach it. On top of the things that we know are weird about it, i.e...

1. Its the single best defensive point for the north and yet doesn't have a standing garrison.

2. Its the single most important strategic point if you want to conquer the north, and yet isn't maintained.

3. It features entirely unique Architecture which seems designed specifically to halt an invasion, rather than a normal fortification which is designed for comfort of defenders and protection the defenders, among other things. (such as defensive ability.)

...We also have reports that simply don't make sense. I.E.

1. The Hamr of waters was called down from moat cailin, but the pact was signed on the isle of the gods.

2. Its supposed to predate the pact.

3. CotF didn't build with stone.

...Is there any way all the things we've been told about MC can be true? Is there any way to make sense of claim 1 other than to say that either the Hammer wasn't summoned from Moat Cailin, or the pact wasn't signed on the isle of the gods? I just can't make sense of the place. It doesn't seem to fit.

I see two explanations for them all to fit.

1. (admittedly, not very satisfying)

MC is a slightly modified natural outcropping that is simply easy to defend from the North side, at a moment's notice, in any state of (dis)repair.

2. (crackpot alert...or is it just heresy lol)

Just as First Men cloak themselves in Black upon frosty White blocks of Ice to stave off Cold beings...

the Others cloaked themselves in White upon oily Black blocks of Rock to stave off Hot beings...

This second option would make Moat Cailin a fortification belonging to the Others in the Long Night. The crackpot alarum has already been given, so I'll just prattle on anyway :D

Such a balance in appearance and color-choice of walls to watch from is quaint and all, but the real reason I suggest it is that according to Old Nan (here I go again) the Last Hero won back what the armies of Men had lost.

That means, if the LH was victorious, the present location of the Wall likely lies on the northern edge of the territory lost by Men, rather than south of it. Winterfell's crypts/Sidhe hill could be the very one the Last Hero had to venture to, as I said in another post, and the lands north of the Neck at that time were likely all lost. (as an aside, this would also explain Bran the Builder's "southron" building projects...in those days, that was the North)

[Matthew.]

It would be ironic of course if the stories of the Last Hero and the Nights King did not originate in Westeros and were then carried far and wide to be adapted to local cultures as Azor Ahai and the rest, but actually came from say Asshai in the first place and were adopted into Westerosi mythology

I wouldn't be surprised if, as far as history goes, all we really learn about is the relationship between the Others, the Singers, the Wall, and House Stark, with many of the broader mysteries of the Long Night left unanswered, and open to interpretation.

At the least, Asshai is still semi-relevant to the current story of Westeros. Mel, MMD, and Marwyn all trained there, and Quaithe seems to be a true Shadowlander. Related to GRRM having grown up in the Cold War era, Mel (and possibly Quaithe) seems to view Westeros as the latest battleground for some kind of metaphysical proxy war.

[Black Crow]

I wouldn't be surprised if, as far as history goes, all we really learn about is the relationship between the Others, the Singers, the Wall, and House Stark, with many of the broader mysteries of the Long Night left unanswered, and open to interpretation.

I rather agree, which is why I'm inclined to interpret both the black ruins, including Moat Cailin, and the dodgy seasons as a legacy from an unknown and unknowable apocalypse, and that this story is not about that apocalypse and its consequences but rather that it shaped the environment in which the present protagonists exists, and that while ultimately we ought to learn of the secrets of the Stark connections to Winter, the children and the walkers, we will see a resolution of that but not the original cause of it all.

[Summer Is Coming!]

I wouldn't be surprised if, as far as history goes, all we really learn about is the relationship between the Others, the Singers, the Wall, and House Stark, with many of the broader mysteries of the Long Night left unanswered, and open to interpretation.

At the least, Asshai is still semi-relevant to the current story of Westeros. Mel, MMD, and Marwyn all trained there, and Quaithe seems to be a true Shadowlander. Related to GRRM having grown up in the Cold War era, Mel (and possibly Quaithe) seems to view Westeros as the latest battleground for some kind of metaphysical proxy war.

If the saga is going to finish with A Dream of Spring being the 7th book then I agree with your idea about the the Others, Wall, and Starks being the focus of illumination. I do think that through these revelations we will see a fair amount of what did or probably did cause the Long Night.

I completely agree with the value Asshai still has. Even from characters who are probably tangential, such as Euron Greyjoy or Marwyn, we may be hearing more about Asshai. Quaithe's strange prophecy to Dany seemed to indicate that she would go through Asshai, but that seems less likely now. I'm wondering if a magical connection between Asshai and the old powers will be revealed. The Shadow City is one dark place for people to exist.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I rather agree, which is why I'm inclined to interpret both the black ruins, including Moat Cailin, and the dodgy seasons as a legacy from an unknown and unknowable apocalypse, and that this story is not about that apocalypse and its consequences but rather that it shaped the environment in which the present protagonists exists, and that while ultimately we ought to learn of the secrets of the Stark connections to Winter, the children and the walkers, we will see a resolution of that but not the original cause of it all.

I agree with this on the whole, but we may see the origins of the darkness. Not the way back when the crazy seasons began but the darkness of the long night of lore. I think we will not see the seasons righted but stories of surviving through it and all the battles and magic wielding that goes with it. And of course on a more personal level- how it affects individuals and what they do to overcome the oppression that is darkness and winter. Wins and losses and stalemates; the outcomes whether they be good or bad and all in between.

Unless all the magical peoples of Planetos join together for a multi-week long round of mystical Kumbayah , but I doubt that will happen.

[Joe Pine]

This conjures up some cool ideas.

What if the Wall is simply a window, through which we can see the past sins of Men?

What if the Wall is simply a mirror, from which the sins of Men are echoed?

I think there are alternate thoughts to be had on the wall, but I think there's issues in terms of information as we've seen exploring the Nightfort and the gate through the wall there.

Agreed, but she's on the short-list.

The KotLT was short too so, it's either Lyanna or Howland Reed.

I see two explanations for them all to fit.

1. (admittedly, not very satisfying)

MC is a slightly modified natural outcropping that is simply easy to defend from the North side, at a moment's notice, in any state of (dis)repair.

Fair enough, it's simply been built on some mysterious stones from long long ago.

2. (crackpot alert...or is it just heresy lol)

Just as First Men cloak themselves in Black upon frosty White blocks of Ice to stave off Cold beings...

the Others cloaked themselves in White upon oily Black blocks of Rock to stave off Hot beings...

This second option would make Moat Cailin a fortification belonging to the Others in the Long Night. The crackpot alarum has already been given, so I'll just prattle on anyway :D

Ok <tinfoil hat on> The point of MC is to stop men getting North, was then the North the agreed retreat of the children of the forest at one point or in one pact or whatever?

Such a balance in appearance and color-choice of walls to watch from is quaint and all, but the real reason I suggest it is that according to Old Nan (here I go again) the Last Hero won back what the armies of Men had lost.

We're speculating I guess, but in the absence of anything else it's plausible, but how did the last hero win it back? Was it magic sword stuff or a Lann-the-clever type situation? - after all, he's on his own.

That means, if the LH was victorious, the present location of the Wall likely lies on the northern edge of the territory lost by Men, rather than south of it. Winterfell's crypts/Sidhe hill could be the very one the Last Hero had to venture to, as I said in another post, and the lands north of the Neck at that time were likely all lost. (as an aside, this would also explain Bran the Builder's "southron" building projects...in those days, that was the North)

As a theory, fair enough, until it's explained any further, it would serve.

I was going to make a point on the Planetos-wide links and series of events, then are the timing of the Long Night and the imbalance of the seasons, the same?

Could The Others be seeking to restore the balance of the seasons?, especially if they are trapped in The Land of Always Winter that's attached to Westeros, I'm presuming they previously have had access across Planetos's Arctic regions before whatever tipped off the seasons and with normal winters coming and going, they occasionally went further south, in a nomadic way before returning North again in autumn.

There might not be any great evil involved in that being their motivation, but with the planet being out of synch for so long and no meaningful way to communicate with Men after the Children of the Forest started to diminish in their numbers and territory, leaving the Others only able to use their magic to try and force a solution.

[Summer Is Coming!]

I agree with this on the whole, but we may see the origins of the darkness. Not the way back when the crazy seasons began but the darkness of the long night of lore. I think we will not see the seasons righted but stories of surviving through it and all the battles and magic wielding that goes with it. And of course on a more personal level- how it affects individuals and what they do to overcome the oppression that is darkness and winter. Wins and losses and stalemates; the outcomes whether they be good or bad and all in between.

Unless all the magical peoples of Planetos join together for a multi-week long round of mystical Kumbayah , but I doubt that will happen.

The Rhoynar claim there was an amazing chorus on their river during the first Long Night, maybe if they add in the Children of the Fores Singers and Jon gets that harp . . .