Jon's "Resurrection"

[Mithras]

Then consider that GRRM may want us to think of the equation, sun = son.

Well, the sun's son was three days dying at the start of that chapter.

We also have these SanSan shippers but I don't think that has anything to do with here :P

[Mithras]

I think it is implied that there will be a Mel-Val fight over Jon's body. Val apparently knows what Mel sees in her fires, which are "kings" and "dragons". I think Mel will decide to do something to Jon's body and Val will act before Mel gets near and smuggle the body away.

As for Mel's intentions with Jon's body: Most of the people think that she will resurrect him and sacrifice Shireen in the process. But I strongly disagree with this.

First of all, this is not the time for them to burn Shireen as there are better alternatives (Gerrick) right now. It is not set in stone that Shireen will be burned. I agree that there might be an attempt later on but I believe she will be saved.

Second, I think it is far more likely that instead of saving Jon, Mel will try to burn him as a blood sacrifice to wake a dragon. Jon made it clear that he would not trust Mel ever again. He acted against her wishes (as in the case of Hardhome). He did not pay attention to her warnings and now he is dying. Mel lost all her hope to make shadowbabies with Jon, something she definitely wanted. Before his precious kingsblood is wasted, the only thing Mel can do at this particularly desperate time is to burn Jon, not save him. Perhaps that is how she will interpret her visions in which she cannot see Stannis but she sees Jon. After having learned that Stannis is in grave danger, perhaps she will conclude that she must burn Jon to send Stannis the dragon he needs before it is too late.

This is where Val interferes and smuggles Jon’s body before Mel does something stupid.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Great discussion and making me think of things in a different light

Wonder if both Robb and Jon as KiTN in the will are the two Kings

Alternatively there is Aemon Targaryen with Kings blood and Jon perhaps

Jon is interesting, think the Stone Dragon is fascinating because he prospectively is a King on two accounts, eg as Rhaegars heir if R=L=JS has some truth and it was a polygamous marriage and also as KiTN in Robbs willW

The whole warg thing with living like a King in a Direwolf line from Varymyr is interesting too, could mean Ghost gets killed but not sure this is the case, a bit like how Arya is half cat warg and half Nymeria warg, am wondering if Jon will be half Ghost and half dragon (white one?). Slightly unrelated but I wonder if there are any Hounds Sansa will start warging or Falcons for seetrobin

Asha is interesing too, Theon hasn't made a claim as he didn't attend the Kingsmoot so he is still "Crown Prince" so to speak, but Asha did make a claim, wonder if that whole Weir Tree holds some validity if her blood soaks onto it given she attended the Kingsmoot etc

Will be interesting to see how it all unfolds

[Greymoon]

Jon brought two corpses from the grove and they are still in the ice cells where Jon will shortly be put in. In the quote above, just after Jon was stabbed, we have the Barristan chapter starting with "The Dornish Prince was three days dying." We can assume that Jon will be "dead" in the ice cells for three days which makes it another parallel between Jon and Jesus. Those two corpses Jon brought from the grove might be the two witnesses but I don't know what purpose will they serve.

Why would Jon be in the Ice cells though? Isn't it said in DwD, that if the Night's Watch doesn't do something about it, that the ice cells will soon become inaccessibly and that they have to move Gregan Karstarck because of that? With Jon taking a 'break of duty', who will care about shoveling snow out of ice cells? and if Jon is dead, why lock him in a cell at all?

With the recurrent cannibalism theme, (among Stannis's men, and the people at Hardhome, the Frey Pies, the Rat Cook's tale....) and the fact that the Night's Watch lacks in food, Jon being 'stored' for meat is a very real possibility, imo, especially considering the foreshadowing in Jon IV of DwD... Not everyone at the watch needs be aware of it -- just the stewards responsible for the rationing of stores.... it might take three days for those loyal to Jon to figure out what was done with his body, and decide to 'steal' it away and bring it out to the weirwood groove....

The lack of food, of fresh meat, in particular, appears to be one of Marsh's main concern... though I think this is not the reason he stabbed Jon...DwD Jon IV starts p. 218, US Hardcover:

"Careful of the rats, my lord." Dolorous Edd led Jon down the steps, a lantern in one hand. "They make an awful squeal if you step on them. [...] All of Castle black was connected underground by a maze of tunnels that the brothers called wormways. It was dark and gloomy underneath the earth, so the wormways were little used in summer, but when the winter winds began to blow and the snows began to fall, the tunnels became the quickest way to move about the castle. The stewards were making use of them already. [...] Bowen Marsh was waiting at a junction where four wormways met.

Mention of rats, that squeal if Jon steps on them. Barbrey Dustin likens the maester of the citadel to rats, but metaphorically speaking, 'rats' in modern English usually refers to an informant, a traitor. Careful of the rats, says Dolorous Edd, when he, Jon, Bowen and Wick, go down to check on food stores. They make an awful squeal when you step on them" they will talk, plot, or betray, if you ruffle them.

The idea of betrayal or sabotage is found again it the term wormways. A wormway is left by a worm, synonymous to malware...a worm is parasitic, wormways beneath castle black, would seem to weaken the structure/the watch. There's also the expression, to worm something out of someone, or to worm out of something. To extricate information from someone through manipulation, or extricate oneself from a situation through devious means.... with the wormway being the work of a worm, I see a wormway as a metaphor for a treason/plot...and the stewards were making use of them already.

Bowen Marsh was waiting at a junction where four wormways met.

In the ballad of John Barleycorn, three kings/men vow that John Barleycorn must die. So, I think in a way, Jon's betrayal is the result of more than one plot, coming together, and coming to fruition through Bowen Marsh. Janos Slynt and Bowen Marsh, for ex. were iirc, in contact with Tywin Lannister who promised to aid the watch if Slynt was elected LC.

We know Cersei's plan came to nothing since Kettleblack was arrested... but what about Tywin's promise? what if Slynt and co. made plans on behalf of the Lannisters, hoping that by taking Jon out of the picture, Tywin, and later Tommen would aid the watch? Stannis looks like a doomed candidate, so Lannister gold would have been alluring... Bowen might have thought his best bet for the Watch's welfare was to do the Lannisters a favor, and eliminate the last Stark claimant. With Stannis 'dead' the choice for Bowen would have been all the easier to make.

(Bowen and others speaking out against Jon seem 'conservative', which for me, would imply a pro-Iron Throne stance.To them, Stannis would appear a rebel, and Jon, would appear a potential complication, because he is the son of the traitor Eddard Stark and brother to the other rebel king, Robb Stark.)

from wiki:

Lord Tywin disagrees, arguing that "there is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool". When Tyrion objects that Slynt will sell himself to the highest bidder, Tywin answers that he counts that in the man's favor, as no one is likely to outbid the Lannisters. Ignoring Tyrion's protests that the black brothers chose their own commander and direct support for Slynt would thus be unwise, Tywin orders Pycelle to write a letter to Marsh in the name of King Joffrey, in which the demand for men is rejected for the time being but the "fondest regards to his faithful friend and servant Lord Janos Slynt" are also expressed.

If the plot was a long time in coming, as I suspect, and Slynt had a part in it, Jon's betrayal was inevitable from the moment he became LC, his speech at the shield hall only acting as a catalyst and prompting Bowen Marsh and co. to act, because Jon meant to leave, threatened Lannister allies and wanted to get involved in the war once and for all. Killing Jon before he could leave the watch, that's like doing King Tommen a favor, no?

Mance, Selyse, even Melisandre -- all can be suspects in a plot devised to take Jon out of the picture, too. Mel, because another LC might prove more cooperative (while Ghost seems bewitched by Mel, he also almost attacks Devan Seaworth; Mel's 'assistant' same chapter p. 221 DwD); Selyse, because she might find Jon is a rival to Stannis's and her authority on the wall; he keeps contradicting her, after all, and she has grand plans with Val and the wildlings :) not to mention that Ser Axell has no love for Jon and claims the title of 'Hand of the Queen'... and Mance, for obvious, personal reasons, and because of the reference to Abel and Cain, and to the Wicker Man, in Mance's choice of alias and his choice of wildling women (Willow and Rowan).

So between Lannister loyalists, Florents/Queen's men and Mance (+ Mel, though she's the weakest candidate imo), we can find, at the very least 'three Kings' (or three parties of people acting on behalf on this king or that Queen) vowing that Jon must die... that makes for three wormways, the fourth, being represented by the watch's interests, or what Bowen believes to be in the watches best interest.... (No Stannis, no widlings, no Stark claimants, and more food/gold with the support of the Iron Throne)

After meeting Jon at the four wormways, Bowen, Jon and Wick, go through the storage rooms....

Before long Jon could see their breath frosting in the lantern light. "We're beneath the Wall."

"And soon inside it," said Marsh. "The meat won't spoil in the cold. For long storage, it's better than salting."

The next door was made of rusty iron. Behind it was a flight of wooden steps. Dolorous Edd led the way with his lantern. Up top they found a tunnel as long as Winterfell's great hall though no wider than the wormways. The walls were ice, bristling with iron hooks. From each hook hung a carcass: skinned deer and elk, sides of beef, huge sows swinging from the ceiling, headless sheep and goats, even horse and bear. Hoarfrost covered everything.

As they did their count, Jon peeled the gloves off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There's a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than ever Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.

This passage, with Dolorous Edd lightning the way, reminds me of Theon and Lady Dustin, exploring the crypts of Winterfell....Iron swords are said to keep the spirits of the dead at bay. An iron gate guards the godswood in Winterfell...and Iron door guards the meat at castle black in a room that is colder than it should be and is located beneath a mountain of ice.

[sammy~two~swords]

I think its got to be either bran or mel who will revive jon or maybe both have a hand in it . Or he is just badly injured. With the amount of clothing they ware at the wall & maybe even a mail shirt on , the blades might not have penertrated to deep .

[Mithras]

Why would Jon be in the Ice cells though?

There is some foreshadowing for that.

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There’s a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.

Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

As for the storywise reason; I think Bowen will succeed in having a short-lived reign as the LC of the NW. He will want to keep Jon's body to show Ramsay as a sign of their loyalty to the IT and the Warden of the North.

[Greymoon]

There is some foreshadowing for that.

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There’s a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.

Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

As for the storywise reason; I think Bowen will succeed in having a short-lived reign as the LC of the NW. He will want to keep Jon's body to show Ramsay as a sign of their loyalty to the IT and the Warden of the North.

but this is not the ice cells! that's where they store the meat, which was exactly my point. The ice cells is where they keep prisoners....

[Mithras]

The second quote is from the ice cells. Besides, the stores are carved into the Wall too.

[Greymoon]

I think it is implied that there will be a Mel-Val fight over Jon's body. Val apparently knows what Mel sees in her fires, which are "kings" and "dragons". I think Mel will decide to do something to Jon's body and Val will act before Mel gets near and smuggle the body away.

As for Mel's intentions with Jon's body: Most of the people think that she will resurrect him and sacrifice Shireen in the process. But I strongly disagree with this.

First of all, this is not the time for them to burn Shireen as there are better alternatives (Gerrick) right now. It is not set in stone that Shireen will be burned. I agree that there might be an attempt later on but I believe she will be saved.

Second, I think it is far more likely that instead of saving Jon, Mel will try to burn him as a blood sacrifice to wake a dragon. Jon made it clear that he would not trust Mel ever again. He acted against her wishes (as in the case of Hardhome). He did not pay attention to her warnings and now he is dying. Mel lost all her hope to make shadowbabies with Jon, something she definitely wanted. Before his precious kingsblood is wasted, the only thing Mel can do at this particularly desperate time is to burn Jon, not save him. Perhaps that is how she will interpret her visions in which she cannot see Stannis but she sees Jon. After having learned that Stannis is in grave danger, perhaps she will conclude that she must burn Jon to send Stannis the dragon he needs before it is too late.

This is where Val interferes and smuggles Jon’s body before Mel does something stupid.

iirc, Yolkboy argued that Mel is the bleeding star.

If it comes to a fight between these two, Mel's weapon is fire, Val's is a dagger...these two fight, it's possible, both end up dead....

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I think someone (Mel?) will free Ghost and he will escape before the conspirators find a chance to kill him. While Jon is in the ice cells (probably for three days), Ghost will be out there somewhere and his howling will be heard everywhere in CB. It will be an ominous sign for Bowen.

It would be very interesting indeed if Ghost were howling. Ghost never howls or growls. Other than his first little cries that only Jon heard when he was just a pup with his dead mother, Ghost has been the "Quiet Wolf." I'm pretty sure the only dire wolf with golden eyes was Grey Wind. Which of course would be a odd coincidence as both he and Eddard were beheaded.

There is something I have a question about though, as I have read this part quite recently, why would Ned feel shame? There is also a part where he regrets broken promises. I understand regret, but why the shame? What shameful thing did our honorable Ned Stark do that he feels so much self recrimination? He said he lied to Robert, but we always knew that, he thinks he caused his death, but in reality, Cersei was only biding her time, she would have killed him anyway. I admit, Ned may not have figured that out.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

There is some foreshadowing for that.

As they did their count, Jon peeled the glove off his left hand and touched the nearest haunch of venison. He could feel his fingers sticking, and when he pulled them back he lost a bit of skin. His fingertips were numb. What did you expect? There’s a mountain of ice above your head, more tons than even Bowen Marsh could count. Even so, the room felt colder than it should.

Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

As for the storywise reason; I think Bowen will succeed in having a short-lived reign as the LC of the NW. He will want to keep Jon's body to show Ramsay as a sign of their loyalty to the IT and the Warden of the North.

It could also be the dead man that they stored down there in one of the cells. He may have become a wight. That was what I thought immediately when I read that, and I still do.

By the way, I do not see Bowen Marsh as succeeding Jon as the LC. That would be Alliser Thorne, the one who put the plot in motion. Just my opinion, but he did not go on that ranging North of the Wall.

[Greymoon]

The second quote is from the ice cells. Besides, the stores are carved into the Wall too.

I'm not arguing against Jon ending up, encased, entombed, in the wall somehow...just against him being locked in the the ice cells....I find there's a better argument to be made of Jon being stored among dead sheep and pigs, as food...if he's dead, he doesn't need to be chained, or locked, inside a cell, and Bowen is horribly worried about not having enough meat to get through the winter...

[Mithras]

I'm pretty sure the only dire wolf with golden eyes was Grey Wind.

Actually all the direwolves except Ghost and Shaggy have golden eyes and grey fur. Ghost has red eyes, white fur and Shaggy has green eyes, black fur.

[UtherSnow]

Curious...... Has anyone seen direwolves north of The Wall? Other than Bran's and Jon's. I can't think of any reference to any at all. Does that make anyone wonder where they went?

Surely, the one (killed by a stag) that birthed those we know can't be the sole survivor from beyond The Wall. Unless it was always south of The Wall and not from beyond....

Which gets me thinking about Nymeria's pack heading towards The Wall, to join up with Ghost. Aren't they able to sense each other? If Ghost was in danger...... What if Nymeria links with Ghost, while Jon's inside.....? Then links with Arya in one of her 'wolf dreams'..... Arya discovers Jon's in danger..... Too fairy-tale? I'm not putting it forward as any kind of theory, simply a connection of possible dots, easily scrubbed out.

Back to Jon..... Looks like he's still in a death-like sleep. To be woken with True Love's kiss? Perhaps Val knows there is another kiss. It keeps this balance of Fire and Ice going if she possess an ability similar to what Mel should be capable of.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Is there any evidence at all in the books that sacrificing to the old gods can resurrect life? I believe that ice magic and fire magic are two sides of the same coin. Blood Magic. But we have yet to see the old gods resurrect any one no?

Doesn't it seem more likley that Mel will do some Moqurro type magic to heal his body while Jon is on vacation inside of Ghost?

Victs hand was pretty much fire made flesh.

"The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand."

"Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester."

"The arm the priest had healed was hideous to look upon, pork crackling from elbow to fingertips. Sometimes when Victarion closed his hand the skin would split and smoke, yet the arm was stronger than it had ever been."

Point is, Mel seems to know the same magic Moqorro used based on the fact her blood / body seems be fire made flesh also.

I agree with you about the dreams and Ned etc.. But to me it just seems more likley that Mel will heal Jons body. Jon has the blood of the dragon after all.

Maybe they resurrected the Others.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Curious...... Has anyone seen direwolves north of The Wall? Other than Bran's and Jon's. I can't think of any reference to any at all. Does that make anyone wonder where they went?

Surely, the one (killed by a stag) that birthed those we know can't be the sole survivor from beyond The Wall. Unless it was always south of The Wall and not from beyond....

Which gets me thinking about Nymeria's pack heading towards The Wall, to join up with Ghost. Aren't they able to sense each other? If Ghost was in danger...... What if Nymeria links with Ghost, while Jon's inside.....? Then links with Arya in one of her 'wolf dreams'..... Arya discovers Jon's in danger..... Too fairy-tale? I'm not putting it forward as any kind of theory, simply a connection of possible dots, easily scrubbed out.

Back to Jon..... Looks like he's still in a death-like sleep. To be woken with True Love's kiss? Perhaps Val knows there is another kiss. It keeps this balance of Fire and Ice going if she possess an ability similar to what Mel should be capable of.

There has to be direwolves North of the Wall. It was South of the Wall that they hadn't been seen in a few hundred years. The she wolf that gave birth to the Starks wolves had to get pregnant by some male of her species. That is a logical assumption and not based on fantasy or dark, blood or any other kind of magic.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Actually all the direwolves except Ghost and Shaggy have golden eyes and grey fur. Ghost has red eyes, white fur and Shaggy has green eyes, black fur.

I know Shaggy is the only one with green eyes, Ghost has Red eyes, (fire and ice again). I think Ghost and Shaggy will have a lot going on in the last 2 books. I think Summer (the name seems to foreshadow that) may just survive, in either event, I am of the opinion that the books will end where they began, with Bran. They began with Bran the Builder and they will end with our young Bran.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I'm not arguing against Jon ending up, encased, entombed, in the wall somehow...just against him being locked in the the ice cells....I find there's a better argument to be made of Jon being stored among dead sheep and pigs, as food...if he's dead, he doesn't need to be chained, or locked, inside a cell, and Bowen is horribly worried about not having enough meat to get through the winter...

Bran sees a vision of Jon there with all warmth leaving him ... seems to foreshadow that he will indeed be placed in an ice cell.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Gerrick is no king, his sacrifice should have no magical effect.

but asha and his unborn son (if she is indeed pregnant) could do the job. :dunno:

How about Aerys & Viserys? or, Robert & Joffrey? Robb & Renley?

[Greymoon]

Bran sees a vision of Jon there with all warmth leaving him ... seems to foreshadow that he will indeed be placed in an ice cell.

No. It seems to foreshadow that Jon will be placed somewhere, beneath the wall. Both the ice cells and storerooms are cold and beneath the wall. And there's lots of foreshadowing for Bowen Marsh's treason in Jon IV, the chapter where he and Bowen, Wick and Edd visit the storerooms. cf. post 104.