Jon's "Resurrection"

[Frey3.14]

AFAIK, there is no reference to a red star, only comments about a red comet which could be associated with blood.

ASOS 25 Davos III

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

ADWD 49 Jon X

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

And he is the sun, not a star.

The sun is a star. The comet isn't a star, but that doesn't seem to be a problem.

[Mithras]

“It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now,” the red woman went on, “but soon the sun will rise again. The war continues, Davos Seaworth, and some will soon learn that even an ember in the ashes can still ignite a great blaze. The old maester looked at Stannis and saw only a man. You see a king. You are both wrong. He is the Lord’s chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!”

“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . . .”

A red star is supposed to bleed according to the prophecies.

“A king’s son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins.” Melisandre’s ruby glowed like a red star at her throat. “Do you think you’ve saved this boy, Onion Knight? When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest, wherever he is hidden. Your own sons as well. Darkness and cold will cover the earth. You meddle in matters you do not understand.”

Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right.

“Lord Snow.” The wildling grinned at them through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. The ruby on his wrist glimmered in the morning light like a dim red star.

Mel’s eyes and her ruby necklace were likened to red stars. Jon remembered Ghost’s eyes blazing exactly like the ruby necklace of Mel which he likened to a third eye. Sounds interesting.

Another of the outlaws stepped forward, a younger man in a greasy sheepskin jerkin. In his hand was Oathkeeper. “This says it is.” His voice was frosted with the accents of the north. He slid the sword from its scabbard and placed it in front of Lady Stoneheart. In the light from the firepit the red and black ripples in the blade almost seem to move, but the woman in grey had eyes only for the pommel: a golden lion’s head, with ruby eyes that shone like two red stars.

The ruby eyes of the golden lion of Oathkeeper were also likened to red stars.

“Like as not,” Ser Balman agreed. “Rosby’s ward was not the only one to vex us, Your Grace. We encountered ruffians on the road as well. Filthy, unkempt creatures, with leather shields and axes. Some had stars sewn on their jerkins, sacred stars of seven points, but they had an evil look about them all the same.”

Meryn Trant reached for his sword, but Cersei stopped him before he could unsheathe it. She had only two knights amidst a sea of sparrows. She saw staves and scythes, cudgels and clubs, several axes. “I will have no blood shed in this holy place, ser.” Why are all men such children? Cut him down, and the rest will tear us limb from limb. “We are all the Mother’s children. Come, His High Holiness awaits us.” But as she made her way through the press to the steps of the sept, a gaggle of armed men stepped out to block the doors. They wore mail and boiled leather, with here and there a bit of dinted plate. Some had spears and some had longswords. More favored axes, and had sewn red stars upon their bleached white surcoats. Two had the insolence to cross their spears and bar her way.

“Is this how you receive your queen?” she demanded of them. “Pray, where are Raynard and Torbert?” It was not like those two to miss a chance to fawn on her. Torbert always made a show of getting down on his knees to wash her feet.

“I do not know the men you speak of,” said one of the men with a red star on his surcoat, “but if they are of the Faith, no doubt the Seven had need of their service.”

The Faith Militant is the military arm of the Faith of the Seven, under the command of the High Septon. It has arisen several times throughout history. It is traditionally composed of two military orders: the Warrior's Sons, and the Poor Fellows, known respectively as the "Swords" and the "Stars" for their respective symbols, which is why the Faith Militant is also known as the Swords and Stars.

The Warrior's Sons are knights and who have renounced their titles, lands, gold and possessions to fight for the Seven. They swear their swords to His High Holiness. They wear inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, rainbow cloaks, and swords with star-shaped crystals in their pommels. They developed a reputation for fanaticism and implacable hatred for enemies of the Faith.

The Poor Fellows are a more humble order for commoners and women. Acting as a militant counterpart to begging brothers, Poor Fellows wander the realm and escort pilgrims between septs. They are lightly-armed footmen, who carry whatever weapons they can make or find, often axes or cudgels, and wear star badges, red on white.

The Poor Fellows wear a red star upon white. They are known as the Stars whereas the other order of the Faith Militant is called the Warrior’s Sons or just the Swords. The Swords and Stars.

The rearming of the Faith Militant is one of those Checkov’s guns. The Tyrells will fight the Faith Militant after Margaery is found guilty and "the Stars" will bleed.

[BalerionTheCat]

ASOS 25 Davos III

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

ADWD 49 Jon X

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

The sun is a star. The comet isn't a star, but that doesn't seem to be a problem.

OK, twice Melisandre is using a different formulation. Maybe she has the right translation, maybe not. A red priest would want to see things red. And obviously she is not right on everything. And anyway, Ser Patrek's star is now red with blood.

Sun, stars and comets nature has been discovered by astronomers. But in middle age, the Sun was one thing. The stars, comets and falling stars were another. A comet could be a "bleeding star" or a moving star. But no one was thinking the Sun was a star.

And anyway, I do not insist that Patrek is the "bleeding star". I prefer Barristan maybe comet. But I don't think it is the Martell's Sun.

Mithras Stoneborn:

OK, I missed a lot of "red stars". Most are Melisandre fancy for the red color. But (and I speak here only for myself), I don't know if we must give too much importance to every occurence of the words "star" and "red". They are pretty common, even in conjunction (half the stars are red anyway). And I don't see what the Lannister red rubies have to do in it. Personally, and again, only me, I give more attention to factual evidences than textual coincidences.

Finally, If Aemon is right in seeing "a red star bleeding in the sky", then only a comet will do. Nothing figurative.

ETA: Visions are sometimes difficult to interpret, like Jojen dreaming of the sea in WF. SO Aemon vision may be figurative and not a real comet.

[Greymoon]

The rearming of the Faith Militant is one of those Checkov’s guns. The Tyrells will fight the Faith Militant after Margaery is found guilty and "the Stars" will bleed.

Mel is the bleeding star, imo. If Yolkboy is correct she has King's blood, too...

Though, this thing with the faith militants could well be another 'hint' at a future Tyrell/Stark alliance, like Loras's three roses sigil...GRRM likes to keep the story 'open' to multiple interpretations, so Mel and the faith militants, and Ser Patrick etc. need not be mutually exclusive... A struggle with the faith militants would parallel a struggle with R'hllor followers....Loras is the white cloak to Jon's black one...Both their 'sisters' were betrothed to Joffrey, and their families got involved in a game too big for them, ultimately leading to their destruction.

(an alliance of the 'broken'... like Davos says, only a starving man begs bread from a beggar; and with Margaery's reputation a 'bastard' of house Stark might be the best match she can hope for after all that transpired... The Tyrell's words are growing strong, they will suffer a major set back but come back with a vengeance...what is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger... Winter is Coming for the Lannisters ;) )

I know you rather like the idea of Jon/Shireen, but I really don't think that will happen. Not only is Shireen very young, and will probably never be old enough for Jon to consider her as a potential match, even by the end of the series, but she also has Greyscale, which by all accounts is deadly, seems to be highly contagious, and according to Val (imo, she's right on that point) is only 'dormant' in her. GRRM created Greyscale for a reason, and made Shireen a carrier of it for a reason....

[Mithras]

Denys Mallister represented the nobility and Cotter Pyke represented the anti-nobility. They were put to the extreme ends of the Wall because they could not get on. Yet they ended up supporting Jon for the LC. Jon found himself in the office before he realized what was going on. He was not aware of he games played behind the curtains. I think his ascension to the crown will be similar. He will not have any thought of taking a crown but Sam and Davos will be the ones to sway the Great Council in favor of him.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Not in ASOIAF because it seems that spirits are dissolving into the nature after death. That was what Varamyr was experiencing, what Leaf and the woodswitch told. Gone into the trees, gone into the earth and so on.

Varamyr was experiencing that before true death..It was just his "spirit" out of control trying to find a new "host". And he found it after true death.

Also i´m not sure it is that clear for normal people (not skinchangers) what happens after:

The man’s face grew strange. “Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she’d sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?” Qyburn spread his hands. “The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one.”

[Fire Eater]

Bowen Marsh would never do a LC. He had even less votes than Slynt or Yarwyck. And he attacked his lord without challenge, with multiple accomplices, one of them stabbing Jon in the back. Nothing a king or a knight will excuse.

Except he is worried about the NW being on the losing side, and he opposes Jon's policy of letting wildlings past the Wall and giving them castles. He is forced to extremes. He managed to make a follower out of Alf of Runnymud who likely blamed Jon for sending Garth out. He can likely manipulate the NW's feelings of Jon's supposed betrayal by the wildlings and Selyse's fear of wildlings to get support as LC.

He is described as calculating, and his actions weren't spontaneous. Also, those men screaming were likely people who would give a different story from what marsh would give when he struck.

[BalerionTheCat]

Except he is worried about the NW being on the losing side, and he opposes Jon's policy of letting wildlings past the Wall and giving them castles. He is forced to extremes. He managed to make a follower out of Alf of Runnymud who likely blamed Jon for sending Garth out. He can likely manipulate the NW's feelings of Jon's supposed betrayal by the wildlings and Selyse's fear of wildlings to get support as LC.

He is described as calculating, and his actions weren't spontaneous. Also, those men screaming were likely people who would give a different story from what marsh would give when he struck.

He is good at sums, no one denies that. But calculating is something else. He may have counted his supporters, but he is not inspiring his men. Already Wick is deserting him, realizing what he did:

The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me.

Marsh is the First Steward and was deputy LC before Jon's election. He was in the best position to become the new LC. But he was last and losing votes at each turn.

And the place is calm for now. No general uprising or what:

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin’s Tower

And the queen is neither legitimate nor has the strength to influence what will happen in CB. And her men serve Melisandre more than her:

Queen Selyse descended upon Castle Black with her daughter and her daughter’s fool, her serving girls and lady companions, and a retinue of knights, sworn swords, and men-at-arms fifty strong. Queen’s men all, Jon Snow knew. They may attend Selyse, but it is Melisandre they serve

[Wordsmith1]

Calling it; he didn't die.

Got shanked a lot, sure, probably messed up bad, but I'm guessing he's not dead.

[Fire Eater]

He is good at sums, no one denies that. But calculating is something else. He may have counted his supporters, but he is not inspiring his men. Already Wick is deserting him, realizing what he did:

The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me.

That is stretching it. You're saying Wick just attacked Jon, and then changed his mind right on the spot? He has been calculating as he when he mentions that Jon intends to let more wildlings through the Wall in the chapter Val left, Jon notes that he said it as if he knew all along. Marsh has been thinking about what Jon will do, and likely been thinking about how to deal with it.

Marsh is the First Steward and was deputy LC before Jon's election. He was in the best position to become the new LC. But he was last and losing votes at each turn.

And the place is calm for now. No general uprising or what:

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin’s Tower

Now he has a better opportunity given the chaos of the situation, and he wants a LC who would promote his agenda. Rallying the NW men on behalf of Jon would be a good way to win support. Jon heard men screaming behind him just when Wick attacked him.

And the queen is neither legitimate nor has the strength to influence what will happen in CB. And her men serve Melisandre more than her:

Queen Selyse descended upon Castle Black with her daughter and her daughter’s fool, her serving girls and lady companions, and a retinue of knights, sworn swords, and men-at-arms fifty strong. Queen’s men all, Jon Snow knew. They may attend Selyse, but it is Melisandre they serve

That didn't stop Selyse form naming Gerrick the King of the Wildlings. There is also precedent for a monarch naming the LC when the King of Winter had 10 year-old Osric named LC of the NW, I think. With the LC dead, and no time to call an election, especially since they believe the wildlings are launching an assault. I doubt Melisandre would try to defy Selyse or Selyse's sworn swords would for that matter.

[Durran Durrandon]

What are the numbers of the wildlings present compared to the Night's Watch and the Queensmen? Because the windings w were all ready to follow Jon into battle, and I wouldn't be surprised if over half the Watch either joins the wildlings or does nothing to save Marsh, when the wildlings try to kill him.

[Fire Eater]

What are the numbers of the wildlings present compared to the Night's Watch and the Queensmen? Because the windings w were all ready to follow Jon into battle, and I wouldn't be surprised if over half the Watch either joins the wildlings or does nothing to save Marsh, when the wildlings try to kill him.

The Shieldhall was described as being able to seat 300 men. Of the people there in the Shieldhall at the time of Jon's speech, five-sixths are wildlings, so that makes 250 wildlings in the Shieldhall. Subtract the men of CB lost in Mormont's ranging and a few killed at the Battle of CB and the Battle of the Bridge of Skulls, there are around 400 NW men at CB. Not all the men of the NW were there with Jon, and if Marsh decided to move now he could have had his men (stewards and builders) move to kill off Jon's supporters as well. We aren't given a lot of details.

[bemused]

What are the numbers of the wildlings present compared to the Night's Watch and the Queensmen? Because the windings w were all ready to follow Jon into battle, and I wouldn't be surprised if over half the Watch either joins the wildlings or does nothing to save Marsh, when the wildlings try to kill him.

I think there are definite signs that the builders are not with Bowen. I think Othell will repeat the pattern we saw during the election. He's said to be a follower, and he seemed to be with Thorne and Bowen, when Jon overheard them pre-election... but in the end, he thought better of it, and told his supporters to vote their conscience, after comparing Slynt to Jon...

“Anyway, now that I’m standing here, I don’t recall why I thought Slynt would be such a good choice. That would be sort of kicking King Stannis in the mouth, and I don’t see how that serves us. Might be Snow would be better. He’s been longer on the Wall, he’s Ben Stark’s nephew, and he served the Old Bear as squire.” Yarwyck shrugged. “Pick who you want, just so it’s not me.” He sat down.

Add to that the implications in the fact that every time Jon offers his personal hospitality to Bowen and Othell, Bowen always refuses food and drink ,while Othell accepts double helpings. It's refusing and accepting guest right on a small scale. Bowen shows enmity - Othell, goodwill.

In the shieldhall, Bowen has two stewards with him and one builder, Alf, who has a very personal grudge against Jon. (He also appears to have Mully assisting him, and probably a few more, including, I beleive, Thorne, offpage).

Othell is "surrounded" by his builders, but because Bowen's group and Othell's are described somewhat separately (not just as "Bowen and Othell with their men",e.g.), I don't think they're in lockstep, here.

GRRM names them together at first, then goes on to distinguish between them. I'd bet anything that Othell and the builders in general are not on board with the assassination, however distrusting of the wildlings they may be.

To his left he saw Marsh and Yarwyck. Othell was surrounded by his builders, whilst Bowen had Wick Whittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd beside him.

As to numbers, the total strength of the NW was less than 1,000 when Mormont went ranging. That means roughly 325 men or so each for CB, EW and the ST ( or maybe slightly more for CB, less for the other 2)... “The Old Bear is taking two hundred seasoned men, three-quarters of them rangers. Qhorin Halfhand will be bringing another hundred brothers from the Shadow Tower... " (ACOK)

.. of the CB men.. Noye said a dozen made it back... who?”

“Dywen did. Giant, Dolorous Edd, Sweet Donnel Hill, Ulmer, Left Hand Lew, Garth Greyfeather. Four or five more. Me.” (Grenn, ASOS)

..and of course Sam made it back a little later , running into the bridge of Skulls survivors on the way. Besides Marsh he only names 3..

When Sam saw Dywen, Giant, and Dolorous Edd Tollett, he broke down and wept.

There can't have been many more because we're told that Mormont lost 200 while Bowen lost 100 even if a few of Qhorin's men made it back.. the total watch can only number something over 600. (Certainly less than 700) That's 200 or so at CB (maybe less, considering Jon has sent a few men here and there to the other castles.)

Considering the sheildhall had some standees there could have been more than 300 total inside and there could have been more wildlings outside. It was the leaders that were asked to the shieldhall ( not all the wildlings had to be there). Jon had still not made assignments for at least two castles, and some that had been assigned (e.g. Soren / Stonedoor) had not left CB yet. One leader at least ,Morna, was conspicuously not mentioned.

Flint and Norrey were apparently still there (Jon noticed northmen on the stairs) and they brought 17 fighting men with them.

We know Mel's guard of 12 is pretty useless. I doubt Selyse's is much better, but she had.. a retinue of knights, sworn swords, and men-at-arms fifty strong. (ADWD)

So that's:

NW................... 200 -225 max.

Wildlings............ 300 -350 min.

Queen's men....... 49 (RIP Ser P.)

Mel's guard......... 12

Northmen........... 19 (incl. Flint and Norrey)

Angry giants......... 1

I'll be kind to Marsh -say he has 1/2 each of the Watch & Queensmen = 113 +25 = 138

And unkind to Jon -1/2 Watch + min. Wildlings + Northmen + Giant) = 112 +300 +19 =1 = 532

The odds are very much against Marsh. Mel's guards are so few, they'd have to be strictly guarding her. Selyse has already been keeping her men close out of fear (knights with her, guards on every landing), so I think I really am being generous to Marsh in allotting him half her men...and stingy with Jon,who could easily have another 100 wildling fighters very nearby.

ETA: Should an angry Giant (even wounded) count as 1 ? ;)

[Mithras]

A dozen men started to talk at once, each trying to drown out the others, and before long half the hall was shouting once more. This time it was Ser Alliser Thorne who leapt up on the table, and raised his hands for quiet. “Brothers!” he cried, “this gains us naught. I say we vote. This king who has taken the King’s Tower has posted men at all the doors to see that we do not eat nor leave till we have made a choice. So be it! We will choose, and choose again, all night if need be, until we have our lord . . . but before we cast our tokens, I believe our First Builder has something to say to us.”

Othell Yarwyck stood up slowly, frowning. The big builder rubbed his long lantern jaw and said, “Well, I’m pulling my name out. If you wanted me, you had ten chances to choose me, and you didn’t. Not enough of you, anyway. I was going to say that those who were casting a token for me ought to choose Lord Janos . . .”

Ser Alliser nodded. “Lord Slynt is the best possible—”

“I wasn’t done, Alliser,” Yarwyck complained. “Lord Slynt commanded the City Watch in King’s Landing, we all know, and he was Lord of Harrenhal . . .”

“He’s never seen Harrenhal,” Cotter Pyke shouted out.

“Well, that’s so,” said Yarwyck. “Anyway, now that I’m standing here, I don’t recall why I thought Slynt would be such a good choice. That would be sort of kicking King Stannis in the mouth, and I don’t see how that serves us. Might be Snow would be better. He’s been longer on the Wall, he’s Ben Stark’s nephew, and he served the Old Bear as squire.” Yarwyck shrugged. “Pick who you want, just so it’s not me.” He sat down.

Janos Slynt had turned from red to purple, Jon saw, but Ser Alliser Thorne had gone pale.

Obviously, Thorne convinced (maybe even threatened) Othell to remove himself from the election in favor of Slynt. But Othell changed his mind as he spoke and that was a shock for even Thorne.

[bemused]

Obviously, Thorne convinced (maybe even threatened) Othell to remove himself from the election in favor of Slynt. But Othell changed his mind as he spoke and that was a shock for even Thorne.

Yes, after that, I don't think he'd ever have been trusted to know their innermost plans.

[Durran Durrandon]

The odds are very much against Marsh. Mel's guards are so few, they'd have to be strictly guarding her. Selyse has already been keeping her men close out of fear (knights with her, guards on every landing), so I think I really am being generous to Marsh in allotting him half her men...and stingy with Jon,who could easily have another 100 wildling fighters very nearby.

ETA: Should an angry Giant (even wounded) count as 1 ? ;)

This was along the lines of my thinking. Thanks for doing the numbers.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

ETA: Should an angry Giant (even wounded) count as 1 ? ;)

I have always thought there will be more of a purpose for Wunwun than just making us sympathize with giants. Jon's kindness has to have some sort of reward, other than getting stabbed several times of course.

[Mithras]

I have always thought there will be more of a purpose for Wunwun than just making us sympathize with giants. Jon's kindness has to have some sort of reward, other than getting stabbed several times of course.

The snow would bury the gates of the ice cells. Jon said them to use Wun Wun in clearing the snow up and removing the prisoners. Jon thought that the gates would be buried by the morrow anyway. I think Wun Wun will help Val by digging the snow up and take Jon from the ice cell.

[Frey family reunion]

delete

[BalerionTheCat]

...

The odds are very much against Marsh. Mel's guards are so few, they'd have to be strictly guarding her. Selyse has already been keeping her men close out of fear (knights with her, guards on every landing), so I think I really am being generous to Marsh in allotting him half her men...and stingy with Jon,who could easily have another 100 wildling fighters very nearby.

ETA: Should an angry Giant (even wounded) count as 1 ? ;)

Thank you for all these numbers.

Marsh may have the support of half the brothers. But I see some differences between supporting someone in speech and going into fight against superior forces or against your own brothers.