Jaime Lannister: Anti-Hero, Villain, or Hero-in-the-Making?

[scotcat]

It's up to the reader to decide for themselves if Jaime deserves redemption or not/is a villain/is a hero. I can understand why he did the things he did - yes, the Bran thing was vile but in another novel, Jamie's killing of an insane monarch (Aerys) would have made him the hero of the book. Do I think he's going to emerge the hero of this series? No.

But would I like him to be redeemed? Yes, I think I would. Ultimately, whether or not he actually succeeds in getting his redemption is of less interest to me than the journey of getting - or not getting - to that point.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But, again, jaime has made no choice here in actually leading to catelyn and Robb's deaths. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not a crime.

Instigating somebody to commit let's say a robbery, with said robbery turning out to be murder, and not being guilty of ading and abetting? Please.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Instigating somebody to commit let's say a robbery, with said robbery turning out to be murder, and not being guilty of ading and abetting? Please.

Huh?

How did Jaime "instigate" anything? He is Roose's prisoner. Basicaly Roose is saying, "so if I send you home please put in a good word with your dad ok?" And Jaime says "sure, and say hi to your Boss."

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Huh?

How did Jaime "instigate" anything? He is Roose's prisoner. Basicaly Roose is saying, "so if I send you home please put in a good word with your dad ok?" And Jaime says "sure, and say hi to your Boss."

"Lannister friendship could mean much." Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well? He dare not look to see.

They are discussing Roose's treason.

[Alternis Dim]

Have you read his interview in Rolling Stones?

Perhaps you will find it interesting, particularly the following parts:

Redemption is one of the themes that GRRM explores in Jaime's arc

You can find the rest of the interview here

Yes, I did read the interview, it was linked in the post I quoted.

I understand what Martin is saying, but for me the necessary condition for redemption is taking responsability for what someone has done. Jumping in the bear pit to save Brienne does not cancel killing Ned's men or throwing Bran from a tower.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

"Lannister friendship could mean much." Jaime thought he knew the game they were playing now. But does the wench know as well? He dare not look to see.

They are discussing Roose's treason.

At that moment, what choice does he have other to play along with whatever Roose says?

That is not in any way shape or form equivalent to accessory to murder. I suppose you could say he knew something and didn't report it to authorities, but he never had the chance. Maybe he could have sent a raven from King's Landing, but by then it was far too late.

[imaginepageant]

I'm leery of saying Jaime has a "redemption" arc, because I think it's really who he was all along, buried beneath cynicism and disappointment.

I agree with your entire post, but this part especially. Jaime was a villain in the beginning of the series because that is the perspective of him we were given. Later, when we see from his own perspective, we start to discover that the "villainous" things he did earlier had much less villainous reasons behind them than we'd thought. Our perception of him shifts. So, while he does have something of a redemption arc in terms of linear narrative, I don't think he ever truly was that villain in terms of his character.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

At that moment, what choice does he have other to play along with whatever Roose says?

That is not in any way shape or form equivalent to accessory to murder. I suppose you could say he knew something and didn't report it to authorities, but he never had the chance. Maybe he could have sent a raven from King's Landing, but by then it was far too late.

He could ask to be kept as a POW, like he was the entire time.

Sure, that wouldn't be exactly comfortable, nor would it help his family. But since that's basically what a lot of the Mafia is about...

[Dolorous22]

I agree with your entire post, but this part especially. Jaime was a villain in the beginning of the series because that is the perspective of him we were given. Later, when we see from his own perspective, we start to discover that the "villainous" things he did earlier had much less villainous reasons behind them than we'd thought. Our perception of him shifts. So, while he does have something of a redemption arc in terms of linear narrative, I don't think he ever truly was that villain in terms of his character.

Yep, agree entirely. It's all about perspective.

[Ingelheim]

Anti-Hero. One of the most complex characters Martin has ever written.

[imaginepageant]

Jaime Lannister is true hero,

he saved whole population of KL from terrible death and "almost" as impressive is him not bragging about it ........he is not as some whos mouths are full of honor while their hands are covered with blood of women & children

Yes. If you measure "hero" by "number of lives saved," Jaime is absolutely the biggest hero in the series.

I don't think him explaining himself is necessarily the same as "bragging about it." I think one of his most childish acts, actually, is never explaining to Ned, Jon or Robert why he killed Aerys, yet all the same acting put out and offended when people question his honor. Well no shit they question his honor if they have no idea why he did what he did. He has to know how bad the optics look: Jaime Lannister doesn't lift a finger to stop Aerys until his own daddy is at the gates of the city. Is he really that shocked that he's treated with contempt when he makes absolutely zero effort to explain his actions? It's not as if the story can't be corroborated; there was (is) actually wildfire all over the damn city and there would still have been pyromancers who could testify.

I believe Jaime didn't tell anyone why he killed Aerys because doing so would put King's Landing back into danger from the wildfire. If nobody knew about it, nobody could use it the same way Aerys meant to. This heightens the heroism of Jaime's character: he sacrificed his public honor and reputation (and, potentially, his life—slaying a king is typically high treason, no matter who that king is) for the sake of keeping hundreds of thousands of people safe.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I believe Jaime didn't tell anyone why he killed Aerys because doing so would put King's Landing back into danger from the wildfire. If nobody knew about it, nobody could use it the same way Aerys meant to. This heightens the heroism of Jaime's character: he sacrificed his public honor and reputation (and, potentially, his life—slaying a king is typically high treason, no matter who that king is) for the sake of keeping hundreds of thousands of people safe.

Of course it also left the wildfire straight where it was. It would only take a spark in the wrong place and boom. We even know that wildfire grows more volatile as it ages, more prone to self ignition.

So, in which way is it heroic to let a timebomb tick away instead of getting the damn thing disarmed?

[Pigeon Pie]

This is ASOIAF, he's probably all three.

1. Villain: Bangs his own sister causing a war, throws a child out a window, etc.

2. Anti hero: Not your typical knight in shining armor, killed his king (and I won't consider that a villainous act, considering what Aerys was up to and all)

3. Hero-in-the-making: His arc in FfC and DoD, punishing the men who raped Pia, slapping the guy who insulted Brienne... I believe he'll have quite a heroic part in the Ice and Fire war

[SeanF]

Instigating somebody to commit let's say a robbery, with said robbery turning out to be murder, and not being guilty of ading and abetting? Please.

Aiding and abetting robbery, but not necessarily aiding and abetting murder.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Aiding and abetting robbery, but not necessarily aiding and abetting murder.

Maybe I should have written manslaughter instead.

[imaginepageant]

Of course it also left the wildfire straight where it was. It would only take a spark in the wrong place and boom. We even know that wildfire grows more volatile as it ages, more prone to self ignition.

So, in which way is it heroic to let a timebomb tick away instead of getting the damn thing disarmed?

Aerys's wildfire caches were buried under King's Landing; it isn't likely a stray spark could get to them, if people couldn't even get to them. It probably would've been more dangerous to try to remove them, especially since the pyromancers who placed them were now dead.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Aerys's wildfire caches were buried under King's Landing; it isn't likely a stray spark could get to them, if people couldn't even get to them. It probably would've been more dangerous to try to remove them, especially since the pyromancers who placed them were now dead.

...which would leave self-ignition due to old age.

Or somebody digging a fundament for his new home.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Instigating somebody to commit let's say a robbery, with said robbery turning out to be murder, and not being guilty of ading and abetting? Please.

He didn't instigate anything. At that point I believe Roose was already negotiating with Tywin. How else would the Goat have smelled the danger and then crippled Jaime as an attempt to prevent Roose switching side?

All this scene shows is that Jaime understood a defection was in the work and accepted to play a tiny part by making it clear the mutilation was beyond Roose's control. Otherwise, Roose and Tywin were obviously in some form of communication and discussing terms.

Beside, Robb didn't feel bad about convincing the Westerling to betray the Lannisters, did he?

[WSmith84]

Jaime is a very interesting character. I flip-flop between liking and disliking him constantly, but when one considers the evidence against him it is pretty damning.

- Killing Aerys? Fine. Good, in fact. But Jaime can't get all pissy when people think he was behaving treacherously, because he looked so treacherous right there. If you do something that looks so damning to everybody else, you need to explain why it's not.

- Not telling anyone about the wildfire and putting everyone in danger? Nice one Jaime. It's not like you, your sister/lover/mother-of-your-children and your children live there. I don't know if this was just because of his reluctance to explain his motives or if it was because Jaime was too dumb to realise the threat of wildfire just being left there.

- Pushing Bran out the window? Well, understandable. But, it was Jaime's actions that put his kids in danger in the first place, so the whole 'protecting his kids' angle rings a bit hollow. You want to protect your kids Jaime? Stop doing the thing that will get them killed if it's found out.

- Not protecting Elia and her kids after killing Aerys? This one I find a little baffling to be honest. Jaime didn't think Tywin would hurt them? Does he not know who his father is? Did he forget the fates of House Reyne and House Tarbeck?

Also, I suppose you have to decide whether it's a persons actions or inner personality that matters when calling them 'good' or 'bad'. I generally think its a combination of both, but when nearly everything you do is bad, it's hard to maintain that.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Jaime is very tricky, which is what makes him interesting. I think, despite everything, he's fundamentally a good person. I'd call him a better person than Tyrion.

I think Jaime is a case where the "songs" end up betraying the men and not just the women. Sansa isn't the only one who had to get slapped upside the head that perfect stories of chivalry and glory are just that, stories. "The boy had wanted to be Arthur Dayne but became the Smiling Knight instead." Jaime had visions of glory and adventure and then grew up and got, at face value, more or less what he wanted, but it was hollow. He was a Kingsguard but he was hated, and he had Cersei, the woman he loved, but she was married to someone else, he couldn't publicly acknowledge his kids and the kings he served were all unworthy in their own ways.

I think that sense of "Is this it?" is a big part of what jaded Jaime. I'm very hesitant to blame all of his issues on Cersei, because it takes away his own agency and responsibility. No one but Jaime is responsible for what he's done. But I think his relationship with Cersei is another case of a hollow victory: He got what he wanted but it ended up being poisonous.

I'm leery of saying Jaime has a "redemption" arc, because I think it's really who he was all along, buried beneath cynicism and disappointment. He's a very fascinating character and I'm curious to see what he does next, but most of all I hope he simply becomes his own man. Not just independent of Cersei, but also of his father's legacy and his own reputation.

Really like this.