markg171 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Howland seems to have spent most of his life wielding a spear “The lad knew the magics of the crannogs,” she continued, “but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We’re a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces.” “It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a threepronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork.” “Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran. The little crannogman was walking across the field, enjoying the warm spring day and harming none, when he was set upon by three squires. They were none older than fifteen, yet even so they were bigger than him, all three. This was their world, as they saw it, and he had no right to be there. They snatched away his spear and knocked him to the ground, cursing him for a frogeater.” Then suddenly, 2 years after Harrenhal, he now wields a sword In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man’s memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist....Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. And he must've been pretty good with a sword, seeing as he seemingly played a role in killing Arthur Dayne, survived the battle at the TOJ, and all of the other battles in Robert's Rebellion “The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years. “I thank you.” Bran wondered if he would have to eat a frog to be polite. “I offer you the meat and mead of Winterfell.” He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle. And yet Howland Reed had been one of Father’s staunchest companions during the war for King Robert’s crown, before Bran was born. So in 2 years, Howland Reed became fairly good with a sword I'd say if he could survive a fight with 3 KG, and all of the battles of Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've always suspected that Howland had some kind of poison or a dart weapon of some sort. Plus I take it that he's short and a bit agile. Plus I suspect he got Arthur Dayne in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 There were other ways for Howland to be effective besides being good with a sword. We see Meera make good use of the net; who taught her how to do that, I wonder? And there's also the possibility of using poison or some other longer-range weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 There were other ways for Howland to be effective besides being good with a sword. We see Meera make good use of the net; who taught her how to do that, I wonder? And there's also the possibility of using poison or some other longer-range weapon. The net could have been used at the TOJ true, but it's not something he could have fought through Robert's Rebellion with though. Trying to fight with a net would work when you only have 3 possible opponents, but when there's thousands it would simply be impractical. While you're throwing your net or untangling a body out of it in the midst of a battle, someone would just come up and stab you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've always suspected that Howland had some kind of poison or a dart weapon of some sort. Plus I take it that he's short and a bit agile. Plus I suspect he got Arthur Dayne in the back. There were other ways for Howland to be effective besides being good with a sword. We see Meera make good use of the net; who taught her how to do that, I wonder? And there's also the possibility of using poison or some other longer-range weapon. Or the 3 pronged spear, perhaps. In any case, what is know is stated: that he saved Eddard and Eddard killed Dayne. Perhaps it is not as much a case of skill but destiny. Green dreams do not lie. What had to happen happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snark_Tamer Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I almost wonder if Howland Reed maybe used the green sight and CONVINCED Arthur Dayne to let them take the babe and go--this theory leaves Dayne alive (and fled) for some later purpose of protecting the heir. I understand it is crackpot, but Dayne's real goal was protecting the heir, yes? And it seems he might have been convinced that hiding him was smarter that standing as a lone sword to protect him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I almost wonder if Howland Reed maybe used the green sight and CONVINCED Arthur Dayne to let them take the babe and go--this theory leaves Dayne alive (and fled) for some later purpose of protecting the heir. I understand it is crackpot, but Dayne's real goal was protecting the heir, yes? And it seems he might have been convinced that hiding him was smarter that standing as a lone sword to protect him.Some iterations of the "A+H=M&J" theory suggest that Arthur is alive and living in the Neck. I like the theory overall, a lot, but draw the line on Arthur still being alive. However, I'm quite open to different ideas as to how and why he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Or the 3 pronged spear, perhaps. In any case, what is know is stated: that he saved Eddard and Eddard killed Dayne. Perhaps it is not as much a case of skill but destiny. Green dreams do not lie. What had to happen happened. Well Ned's dream says he used a sword, seeing as he's one of the wraiths in the dream and they wield shadow swords. As to the destiny thing, that is curious that you mention that. The text implies that he spent his life wielding a spear, then he visited the Isle of the Faces. Presumably, he learned much there, and possibly his destiny. He then went to Harrenhal, and if he was the KOTLT, he became a fairly decent jouster to have beaten 3 champions without much training, and then he seemingly switched to being a sword wielder as 2 years later it's his weapon of choice against the 3 KG. So the green seers could have convinced Howland he needed to be a warrior as he had a role to play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I almost wonder if Howland Reed maybe used the green sight and CONVINCED Arthur Dayne to let them take the babe and go--this theory leaves Dayne alive (and fled) for some later purpose of protecting the heir. I understand it is crackpot, but Dayne's real goal was protecting the heir, yes? And it seems he might have been convinced that hiding him was smarter that standing as a lone sword to protect him. Unlikely. The oldschool KG bled duty. Prefacing an argument as to why they should abandon their duties with "the trees give me dreams" probably isn't going to be very credible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Unlikely. The oldschool KG bled duty. Prefacing an argument as to why they should abandon their duties with "the trees give me dreams" probably isn't going to be very credible. Whent would have been the better one to try and convince seeing as Harrenhal is by the Isle of the Faces and presumably closer to the old gods. The Daynes in Dorne probably don't give a fuck about the old gods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.P. Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't see any evidence that Howland didn't train with a sword since childhood. Maybe he was good with both sword and spear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Didnot George say that Ned's dream was a fever dream and we should not take everything in that dream as absolute truths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 It can't be poison or similar because then Ned wouldn't have him in such high esteem, life saved or not. It doesn't have to be something marvellous either. If Howland got his sword in between Arthur and Ned at the right moment, giving Ned some time to recover and give Dayne a final blow, that would also be saving his life. That, Arthur got frogged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 It can't be poison or similar because then Ned wouldn't have him in such high esteem, life saved or not. It doesn't have to be something marvellous either. If Howland got his sword in between Arthur and Ned at the right moment, giving Ned some time to recover and give Dayne a final blow, that would also be saving his life. That, Arthur got frogged. :lol: I'm down with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 I don't see any evidence that Howland didn't train with a sword since childhood. Maybe he was good with both sword and spear.Well we actually know that he wasnt that great with a spear. 3 squires managed to beat him up after all, while Lyanna handled them with nothing more than a tourney sword. That could actually have been the turning point where he realized that his spear was good for catching frogs, but not for fighting hence why 2 years later he seemingly brings a sword to fight the Kingsguard instead of his spear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Didnot George say that Ned's dream was a fever dream and we should not take everything in that dream as absolute truths?IIRC yes, but like I pointed out in a previous post, he had to have fought Robert's Rebellion with a sword or similar weapon as the spear and net combo that Meera uses would only get him killed in a large scale battle.So even if he used something other than a sword against the Kingsguard, he still must've have been relatively good with a sword to have survived the war. In which case, if he'd only been using a sword for the last year or two, that's impressive in and itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pajamacowboy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 To me bringing a 3 prong wooden stick to a fight is like a knife in a gun fight I think after he got schooled by squires he decided to learn how to use a sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pajamacowboy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I mean we seen how good syrio forel's wooden stick held up and that was against Marion fucking Traunt I would assume Arthur Dayne with dawn would make fairly short work of a frog spear and eat a sandwich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well as Snark_Tamer pointed out, the guy can literally see the future. I think that's the sort of thing that could give one an advantage in a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleFinger Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I mean we seen how good syrio forel's wooden stick held up and that was against Marion fucking Traunt I would assume Arthur Dayne with dawn would make fairly short work of a frog spear and eat a sandwich He can't do anything if Dawn is ripped from his hands via a net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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