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Annara Snow

[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

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We've seen normal, happy Sansa, back in the beginning of AGOT, and she wasn't like this. Obviously, she's a lot older now, and I don't expect her to be exactly the same as she was back then, but it's like she transformed into a completely different person, with a completely different personality, in that last bit of the chapter. Before, her ability to charm people came from her courtesy and grace. Here, she's sort of this cliche dream girl, spouting sassy lines, and being overtly flirty.

Because she hit puberty. A child won't make as witty jokes as an adult, that's normal.

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There's another war coming: Euron is invading the Reach, Cersei and Margaery have been arrested, Stannis is marching south, Aegon has invaded the Stormlands, the Dornish have mobilised, and Daenerys is preparing her invasion.

Littlefinger will immediately see a way to gain a political advantage from the Vale's food sources - of that I have absolutely no doubt. And then no food will be left when the real threat arrives.

Indeed. If the Others invade the North and thousands of refugees come South on Manderly's boats and through the neck, food is suddenly going to be required for more people than he is expecting. If he tries to keep it from them it would also put him at logger heads with Sansa as they are her people.

On a similar vein he is aware of Dany but he hadn't planned on Aegon. He was imagining a War of the 3 Queens: possibly Cersei, Margery and Dany. He was not imagining Aegon and then a potential war between Aegon and Dany.

Then thirdly stores of food will become a tempting target for the Mountain Clans. There is a lot that could go wrong with the food supplies.

As I pointed out, Littlefinger's comment about importing lemons from Dorne looks like a glaring warning sign. We know that Dorne has mobilised and is preparing to go to war against the Lannisters. There have been hints that war will most likely reach Dorne itself. Littlefinger is taking far too much for granted, and it will be his downfall.

He is over reaching himself drastically.

And just to make myself clear - he's clearly doing the right thing by holding onto food supplies until it increases in value. But I just don't think the food will survive past Dany's invasion. By that point, think how many armies will be mobilised in Westeros: Aegon and the Golden Company, the Lannisters, the Brotherhood without Banners, the Tyrells, the Dornish, Stannis's forces, the wildlings, Euron and the Ironborn, and then Daenerys with her dragons and most likely Dothraki with their horses.

On the plus side for him in terms of food, there will be barely anyone left to feed in Westeros when all this is over.

With this in mind, it looks to me like Alayne I would have been the first Sansa chapter after the five-year gap.

Agreed. It may also be revised further and extended. Given all the POVs he has to cover, this new plot line for her is going to take a few chapters to set up. We are beginning to know the Vale, but there is still a lot of exposition that needed. Hopefully this chapter will be extended to include the Tourney.

The Tourney of the Hand took place over several chapters, but he no longer has the time or enough separate POVs to do this unless Sansa is going to be stumbling into overheard titbits at every turn.

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People seem to think that there will be no food during the Long Night. Let's be clear. If this food from the Vale is not available, then we are seeing a mass die-off during the Long Night and that is not what I think will happen.

What is necessary is a look at the nuance here. Sure things won't go according to plan. But the plan is to use that food as a bargaining tool to advance Littlefinger's wealth and power. Not to feed the starving hordes of Westeros. What will go wrong, is that Littlefinger's plans will go up in smoke - likely due to the Mad Mouse's intervention, coupled with Sansa finally becoming her own agent, rather than simply his puppet.

So Littlefinger's intended use for the food won't happen. Instead, Sansa will take control of it and use it to feed the North. Jon himself mentioned that the likely place to buy food for the Watch with the Iron Bank's money, is the Vale. So the link has already been established.

There's still food in Westeros, though. The War of Five Kings has had a huge impact on food stores, but generally there is enough to last for at least a few years. The current crisis (particularly for the Night's Watch who are aware of the true threat) is that there isn't enough food to survive a winter as long as the long summer. But as readers we can predict that the Long Night won't last that long - at most, I'd argue it'll last for 2-3 years... in which case food shortage won't be a significant problem apart from a few areas (the Riverlands and the North will be hit the hardest, certainly).

With that in mind, something needs to change. There needs to be a food crisis in Westeros as the Long Night approaches.

Frankly I find both your points of view condescending in a concerned-troll kind of way which really bugs me. I would rather go through a full flame war with a Patrick Stormborn or E-Ro or Mladen, even if I don't agree with their interpretations or fan-stan-dom, rather Tha anybody be 'put on the couch'. I think it sucks to not debate the points and tell people that their enthusiasm for a character is just invalid. Have robust debates,sure, but don't characterise peoples choice to support someone as inherently faulty unless you can prove it, which in ASOIAF will be hard indeed.

(for the record I am not a Sansa fan, not particularly anyway)

LOL

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Frankly I find both your points of view condescending in a concerned-troll kind of way which really bugs me. I would rather go through a full flame war with a Patrick Stormborn or E-Ro or Mladen, even if I don't agree with their interpretations or fan-stan-dom, rather than anybody be 'put on the couch'. I think it sucks to not debate the points and tell people that their enthusiasm for a character is just invalid. Have robust debates,sure, but don't characterise peoples choice to support someone as inherently faulty unless you can prove it, which in ASOIAF will be hard indeed.

(for the record I am not a Sansa fan, not particularly anyway)

Well said.

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'Alayne' is with Myranda (daunter of house historically linked to the Starks) and May (daughter of her father's best friend). I think they will have her back.



On the other hand, harry's having bastard children links him to Robert Baratheon, making Sansa a bit of a Lyanna. (A bit of a stretch I know).



Note the parallels between this chapter and the Arya/Mercy chapter, the tow girls using their sexuality, but in a knowing, distanced way,to advance their objectives.


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There's still food in Westeros, though. The War of Five Kings has had a huge impact on food stores, but generally there is enough to last for at least a few years. The current crisis (particularly for the Night's Watch who are aware of the true threat) is that there isn't enough food to survive a winter as long as the long summer. But as readers we can predict that the Long Night won't last that long - at most, I'd argue it'll last for 2-3 years... in which case food shortage won't be a significant problem apart from a few areas (the Riverlands and the North will be hit the hardest, certainly).

With that in mind, something needs to change. There needs to be a food crisis in Westeros as the Long Night approaches.

With many wars going on at the same time and many armies needed, there won't be as much food as people expect, plus with the Others, daragons etc. you really don't need a food crisis to make the scene any more dramatic.

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There's no way the food won't survive until winter. Winter is already there.

No. It's still autumn in the Vale. And probably elsewhere as well. Chapters are not necessarily presented in chronological order.

And remember the foreshadowing inherent in Tyrion's draconic ambition to turn the Vale into a smoking wasteland.

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No. It's still autumn in the Vale. And probably elsewhere as well. Chapters are not necessarily presented in chronological order.

And remember the foreshadowing inherent in Tyrion's draconic ambition to turn the Vale into a smoking wasteland.

Was that just post-his kidnap or later?

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Yep. Showing some appreciation for sassy banter doesn't quite make him an intellectual yet. I guess it's nice that he can handle a bit of backtalk from a girl, but you're all setting the bar really low if you're already taking that as a sign for a desire for a marriage of the minds. (Remeber how Theon was so into being sassed by not-yet-revealed-as-Asha? Still a proper douchebag through and through at this point).

Like, I won't rule out that he'll pull an Oakheart and prove tragically devoted down the road, but I'd be sorely disappointed in Sansa if she relied on him too much too fast.

And Asha's banter was far wittier IMO, so I find Theon considering her interesting far more justified than Harrold finding Sansa clever.

So we agree he is at least as intelligent as most people in the books?

I'd reckon that he is likely of average intelligence or close to it, at least from what we have seen. However, most of our POV's are above average intelligence, despite all their flaws. The same goes for many major non-POV's characters.

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No. It's still autumn in the Vale. And probably elsewhere as well. Chapters are not necessarily presented in chronological order.

And remember the foreshadowing inherent in Tyrion's draconic ambition to turn the Vale into a smoking wasteland.

How many chapters do you think will be there before winter starts? Not many. Certainly not enough to waste the entire resources of the Vale, much less so since Petyr plans to store the food.

How is Tyrions plans foreshadowing to the Vale not having enough food? He didn't even mention people starving. And how does Tyrion arrive before winter?

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I'd reckon that he is likely of average intelligence or close to it, at least from what we have seen. However, most of our POV's are above average intelligence, despite all their flaws. The same goes for many major non-POV's characters.

People can seem more intelligent if you know there thoughts though. Just look at Sansa, she would seem pretty stupid without knowing what she thinks.

I still wait for more of Harry, but so far he doesn't seem stupid or above average intelligence to me.

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With many wars going on at the same time and many armies needed, there won't be as much food as people expect, plus with the Others, daragons etc. you really don't need a food crisis to make the scene any more dramatic.

I'm sorry but whether you personally think it's needed is irrelevant. I'm looking at the symbolism, tone and foreshadowing in the chapter and the series as a whole, and it looks like GRRM is setting the stage for a major food crisis. That's important because it will have the biggest impact on the lower classes and will also affect how readily Westeros can mobilise against the Others.

I don't see anything in Alayne I suggesting that she will arrive in the north and distribute the food stored in the Vale. That is my original point, and I stand by it. The impression I got from the chapter was that it's still autumn in the Vale, and winter is coming.

How many chapters do you think will be there before winter starts? Not many. Certainly not enough to waste the entire resources of the Vale, much less so since Petyr plans to store the food.

How is Tyrions plans foreshadowing to the Vale not having enough food? He didn't even mention people starving. And how does Tyrion arrive before winter?

As I've repeatedly stated, by "winter" I meant the Long Night - i.e. the REAL winter. Tyrion, Dany, et al. should be there before that happens, considering that ASOIAF is structured as thus: War of Five Kings, Dany's invasion, invasion of the Others.

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People can seem more intelligent if you know there thoughts though. Just look at Sansa, she would seem pretty stupid without knowing what she thinks.

I still wait for more of Harry, but so far he doesn't seem stupid or above average intelligence to me.

Pretty much agree. What I am interested in seeing also is whether SW's assessment of Harry's scheming is on the money or a paranoid hangover from Lysa's own paranoia. Or both are true?

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