[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[Ser Creighton]

True enough, but also, why is everyone bringing up only Cersei as example, or talking about LF pimping his employees, when we know that LF pimped himself, successfully, to Lysa?

I don't know what everyone is bringing up or who everyone is brining up. And of course you have the traditional role of women in this particular society. But the pimp, pimps people and uses them. He did pimp hiself to get to Lysa but then used her.

I will say this and it's not canon, but it seems Roz from the show now makes a lot more sense. D&D for some reason decided to give a prostitute a indentity on the show. This though allowed for insight in how LF uses people. He raised her up, made her feel like his assistant and partner, took on a mentor role with her, made it seem as though he was helping improve, but in truth he was only ever using her. But that is what little finger does, I don't know that it ends the same, but he is more than likely just using her for his own use and goals as he always does. Weather or not she can overcome that remains to be seen, but as of now she seems very much to be embracing her role as his partner and assistant as he sells her to Harry and uses her with Robin. She is at the front of his plans and he is at the back in the shadows as usual, we see her all over the moon gate and talking with people, while he down below hidden away conducting other buisness. She is the face of his franchise but he is still the owner of said franchise.

[Dragon of Valyria]

Good heavens. This was the controversy? This is what had me dreading this book for so long? I guess it's the hype machine combined with over imagination given what often happens in this series.

As a big Sansa fan, I loved the chapter.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Shadric works for Varys, and I wouldn't be surprised that at this point he already passed the information of where Sansa is to Varys. Varys doesn't need to have Sansa to wreck LF's plans, all he needs is to share that information with certain people.

Agreed. The way I see it, the Shadrich thing can go in one of 3 ways:

1) As Colonel Green said above, he fails in his attempt to abduct Sansa but outs her to someone else

2) As you mentioned, he can feed intelligence to Varys, which could in turn prompt a countermove from Team Aegon, like an assassination attempt on LF or Harry (my theory is Illyrio is going to drop by at the House of Black and White on his way to Westeros for this very purpose)

3) Shadrich can help Sansa escape in the event of an emergency and work as a link to Team Aegon

And I guess for completion's sake I should include the possibility of Shadrich being successful in the abduction, especially if he has help in that regard

[Harry the Hair]

Anyone else found Ser Shadrich super creepy in this chapter?

“We mice are quiet creatures.” Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have.

“A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

It looks like GRRM is pretty much telling us that the Mad Mouse is on to her (since Varys offers him a plump bag of gold for her). And judging by the quiet creatures part it looks like he'll try to kidnap her, maybe during the tourney.

[James Arryn]

Agreed.

It's sad some people just see a random douchebag although Martin is so talented in builing up characters.

Oh, I also liked how he spoke about his children. Not so much their mothers, which seemed firmly centred on how attractive he found them in the present, but he spoke of his children with no shame, with a kind of unvarnished easy pride in them as beings rather than as an extension of himself/comment on his honour or w/e. That was refreshing in a series where everyone's children are part of the story of themselves, good or bad.

It was pretty quick so I'm possibly loading this too much, but I just remembered being impressed with that at the time.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Fun read

Is nice writing and character development, eg you can see she still has a fleeting sense of the naive Sansa idealism in much more pragmatic terms ("he only has to like me, not love me") and she is still thinking in terms of the romantic match-ups etc but that is snuffed out as soon as HtH starts treating her like a Bastard. That is the moment the last vestiges are flushed out

So this Chapter is the switching/pivot point

In this very chapter at the end she is showing what I see as a mix of the Margaery (publicity nurturing [dances] + dealing with Sweetrobin similar to how Marge deals with Joffrey and especially Tommen) and Tyrion (wit, especially towards Harry the Heir) influences, by the end of the chapter she is smart enough to know not to give Harry her favour, IMO she will probably choose the Mouse guy or basically someone who is the opposite of what Harry appears to be (a muscular ideal person born to leadership it seems,

This is all a subtle process and it will be very interesting to see where it leads in subsequent chapters, my suspicion is it will relate to being a decisive factor in the Baelish versus

Massive lol if/when HtH realises she is Sansa and well above him in the prestige stakes as a Stark/Tully

For my part I noticed she took note of Littlefingers (or rather "Petyr" which is an important distinction) coaching, but adapted it her own way (based on Marge's influences IMO), importantly she was subtly smart to reinforce the notion of Marillion killing Lysa - this is all in contrast to the who Malefisansa stuff we are seeing and much better than "shall we go" IMO which is too much of a radical shift

Outside of that, looking at the larger picture, Sansa has bottomed out in KL, but is re-ascending as "Alayne" and is back to where she was in AGoT (in fact she becomes a perfect inverse of Sansa in AGoT which is why it is aptly named "Alayne" in this chapter and she is presumably going to ascend further, the Chapter has the feel of those early feasts and the hands Tourney, in this case we have Myranda Royce as an inverse Jeyne Poole, HtH is a mix of an inverse Joffrey and herself (regarding her attitude to Jon Snow?), Sweetrobin is possible a mix of Joffrey (who she deals with better than Joffrey) and Arya who is the younger sibling with tricky character traits requiring careful management

Asides

- Great to hear about the Tapestries, there's something about what is being depicted on them, one to watch

- Great to get a hint of the burgeoning tension between Littlefinger and the Lords Declarant, LD are fools for selling food at the outset of winter,

- Great to hear further references to Sweetrobins "hatred" of singing, he'll listen to music only. Interesting to consider from the perspective he is an anti-Bran type figure in the making who will oppose the CoTF. The continued fascination with Winged Falcons also furthers the notion in my mind he'll warg Falcons at some point

- Corbray, and more specifically LF positioning a merchants daughter in with the old man. Points to a higher issue of LF endgame displacing the traditional Lords with a/the Burgeoise merchant class IMO

[Ghosts Lunch]

Shadrich as Varys plant is interesting

Going by Neds "The Queen will never get this skin" re Lady, Cersei will never get her hands on Sansa and she has escaped Cersei clutches

Varys may want to use Sansa to his own ends regarding Aegon, this would probably revolve around bringing Tyrion back into the picture as Lord of Casterly Rock and Sansa as Lady of Winterfell at the same time to shore up any Aegon reign so I doubt Sansa is in any life-threatening danger from assassins

This could end up like the Theon-Reek-Theon dynamic, if she is rumbled she has to start turning back to Sansa again slowly - with her dealings with Shadrich initially ala Barbrey Dustin, but a wiser, smarter Sansa.

If I was to think in terms of show adaptions, Theon/Reek recognising her in Winterfell could be fulfilling the same purpose? This is where the show gets interesting because we will be looking at how things are to be adapted but in reverse

[Darkbringer]

To me this chapter is boding like all goddamn hell.

Ser Shadrich has either cottoned already on or just did. He is waiting to make an attempt on Sansa.

Lyn Corbray is confirmed as a straight dope killer, and is radiating a Darkstar level of unpredidictability.

Sansa is too damn self congratulatory, she's done well, but her tone is moving close to hubris.

I liked the winged knights thing, and the fact that the Vale is mobilising is great, but naming 8 knights to the guard just to one-up the crown? Dumb.

Tapestries AGAIN. What is the punchline for the damn tapestries?

Bodey, bodey, bodey...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Sansa and Stannis are the 2 characters I personally see as the most injected with rather than inherently possessing those qualities/symbolism seemingly most powerful to many of their fans. I know for example that a lot of the narrative was forced to change when GRRM said in an interview that Sansa did share responsibility for Ned's death, a concept that was damn near a hanging offense prior to that because of sincere and well argued positions which portrayed that argument as indicative of a shortcoming on the part of the reader.

Watching the adjustments after GRRM's quote circulated was uncomfortable enough to witness ( so much so that I intentionally bailed on the board in the immediate wake of his recent 'original notes' because I felt for those to whom that would feel like another unwelcome blow) but it did strengthen my sense that it might not just be me missing what's there, but in fact Sansa becoming representative of a particular narrative important to some people as it reflects on their own lives. That makes th experience more powerful, but it also tends to compromise objectivity more imo, and although this includes many of the best/smartest posters here, I do see a lot stated about Symbolic Sansa that I just don't think is really present in the textual character. I personally rarely debate about my favourite characters (Jaime, Oberyn, formerly Arya, Jon) because I feel too emotionally invested and therefore lacking detachment; my debates center on more intellectualized conflicts about characters like Renly, Stannis, Rhaegar, Robb, Cat, etc, who I wouldn't consider favourites...though over time enough arguing one side kind of moves the center of balance a bit too.

Eh, I have wandered way off my point, but all this was to contextualize the sense that I have never found the Sandor/Sansa dynamic to be any where near as central/loaded as so many involved in Sansa discussions seem to. Otoh I generally get annoyed at the belief that a romantic relationship is the ultimate rendition of human affection/chemistry. I personally find stories about friendship just as or even more moving/dramatic/emblematic as romance, and the assumption that any deep connection must at some level be romantic strikes me as sophomoric and shallow, so there's also that general objection to 'ships' as a rule...but although I think it's possible that the Hound and Sansa might have some future interaction, it has never ever seemed to me either assured or terribly important.

I am much more concerned with either character's development as individuals than charting their progression towards each other, and I think all the important growth happens to people as individuals rather than as part of a couple. The ultimate journey for Sansa as a character will be alone, whether or not she is alone with someone else. Her growth won't be affirmed or capped off by some romantic final destination, imo.

Anyways, just my 2 cents, though I spent a small fortune in words getting there.

Ha ! Fair point. TBH, I'm not too invested in the characters somehow having a foretold romantic reunion, but having spent some time looking into the various references in Sansa's chapters, and as I mentioned posting with others about the subject, I was just surprised there wasn't more discussion on this matter.

I agree there is a chance, in whatever capacity, that they may meet again, and contrary to how my first post may have come across, I really don't mind how the circumstances leading to this come about. I'm not sure where the Sansa/Hound storyline is, or was going, but I was intrigued at the lack of reference anywhere in the chapter.

Plus, the quotes I posted really hint to a transition in Sansa's thoughts, kind of moving on from the previous thoughts of Sandor. Anyhow, I always, well mostly, enjoy your posts and thoughts, and thanks for your comments. ;)

[Le Cygne]

I gotta say, I was a little disappointed with this. It was one of the things I was looking out for having missed it on first read, and have since posted with some people that helped me gain a greater understanding of that storyline. Oh well, I still enjoyed the chapter immensely ! :)

Maybe the dog hasn't arrived yet. She was looking forward to the dream, but we don't know that she's dreamed it yet. I spotted a few things throughout, like this one, she thought Lothor was Sandor, and she runs into him just the way she ran into Sandor, and he says arse, which we know Sandor likes to say, and best yet, he disses Harry:

Near the keep, she ran headlong into Ser Lothor Brune and almost knocked him off his feet. “Harry the Heir? Harry the Arse, I say. He’s just some upjumped squire.”

There's more, too. :)

[Joseph Nobles]

Rather clever of Sansa to have Littlefinger build her an army, yes? One that will be more loyal to Sweetrobin than him, since she can get Sweetrobin to do anything she desires?

[Le Cygne]

I claimed that perhaps some are more ethical than LF because they don't want to manipulate the market to their own advantage, not that they want to sell now because the prices are good. LF wants to hoard to inflate prices is how I read it. Not a good thing, and LF feeding the smallfolk without extracting every last copper he can from them? Fat chance.

Amen to that.

[Darkbringer]

“I was unforgiveably rude to you in the yard. You must forgive me.”

I actually laughed my arse off out loud for half a minute at this. Dumb and arrogant but hilarious. Agree with previous posters, this is sooper Pride and Prejudice-ey.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Maybe the dog hasn't arrived yet. I spotted a few things throughout, like this one, she thought Lothor was Sandor, and she runs into him just the way she ran into Sandor, he says arse, which we know Sandor likes to say, and best yet, he disses Harry:

Ahh ! Thanks Le Cygne, I wondered what you thought of this chapter. As I mention above, with all we had posted about, I was on the look out, and was a little disappointed. Whether this leads to romance or not, this was something I had spent some time on, and was intrigued as to how the references and storyline would continue. Good point as well, maybe the dog hasn't arrived yet, I hope that's the case. :)

Also the 'Mad Mouse' seems to me to have her number. A month or so to check things out, and the bag of dragons comment was ominous, still unclear as to his to how he may go about this though, I feel there could be a twist. Really enjoyed this chapter, thanks in no small part to some of the discussions we had. :thumbsup:

[James Arryn]

Ha ! Fair point. TBH, I'm not too invested in the characters somehow having a foretold romantic reunion, but having spent some time looking into the various references in Sansa's chapters, and as I mentioned posting with others about the subject, I was just surprised there wasn't more discussion on this matter.

I agree there is a chance, in whatever capacity, that they may meet again, and contrary to how my first post may have come across, I really don't mind how the circumstances leading to this come about. I'm not sure where the Sansa/Hound storyline is, or was going, but I was intrigued at the lack of reference anywhere in the chapter.

Plus, the quotes I posted really hint to a transition in Sansa's thoughts, kind of moving on from the previous thoughts of Sandor. Anyhow, I always, well mostly, enjoy your posts and thoughts, and thanks for your comments. ;)

Oh, I think you made your point well about her change, though imo she was previously sort of scrambling for any emotionsl debris to cling to like a shipwrecked passenger. For me her most telling line was feeling alive again for the first time since Ned's death...though that was oddly formally phrased, Lord Eddard Stark rather than father or w/e, and not explained by staying in character as why would Ned's death impact Alayne from the Vale?...maybe tweaked in editing but if not kinda curious...anyways, I agree she seems to have moved on as you demonstrated. I was just explaining why that didn't have the impact for me it did for others, not that I disagreed that it had happened.

[Darkbringer]

I think she ruin the plan because she wants HTH for herself, she's more into power and raising her status.

And if LF's blockade starts a barney with Bronze Yohn I can see Myranda taking a more cunning and self centred road as well...another boding element to this chapter full of forboding.

[James Arryn]

Amen to that.

I could see him learning from the Tyrells and 'spending' the currency politically rather than financially, but it certainly won't be altruistic.

[Le Cygne]

Ahh ! Thanks Le Cygne, I wondered what you thought of this chapter. As I mention above, with all we had posted about, I was on the look out, and was a little disappointed. Whether this leads to romance or not, this was something I had spent some time on, and was intrigued as to how the references and storyline would continue. Good point as well, maybe the dog hasn't arrived yet, I hope that's the case. :)

Also the 'Mad Mouse' seems to me to have her number. A month or so to check things out, and the bag of dragons comment was ominous, still unclear as to his to how he may go about this though, I feel there could be a twist. Really enjoyed this chapter, thanks in no small part to some of the discussions we had. :thumbsup:

Also the Gulltown reference is interesting, there's a song about stealing a sweet kiss from a maid in Gulltown.

Dunk sings it as he's digging a grave on a slope, and Tom Sevenstrings sings it just before Sandor reappears in the narrative in book 3. And then he's digging a grave on a slope...

And GRRM said the kiss would come up in future volumes, and there has only been one since then...

I also meant to say I agree, Mad Mouse has her number. :)

Also there's a bunch more Dunk parallels, and here's the song:

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho

I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho

I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho

[YorEmixam]

Could kidnapping sansa after a certain wedding be LF plan to get the army of the vale on the move? An army on the run needs food too..

I too felt it was different writing than asoif, less description like the food most of all and clothing, its a feast and not much of it. Felt like Dunk and Egg a little bit.

Is it not only a small part of the chapter? maybe the big controversy is in that chapter, but not in the part we got? Maybe what we got was a resume or something edited.

Sansa's story is a tragedy, which means when things go better, its just to put you deeper in mysery.. that + not in the big 5 , I think we can start to worry for sansa..

[Ghosts Lunch]

He seems intelligent though, and sounds pleasantly surprised that Sansa is clever. I don't think he'll be as easy to manipulate as LF thinks.

Harry the Hier sounds like a total douchebag.

To be fair, he is probably coming in, is intelligent enough to know he is being dragged into some scheme of Littlefingers and lady Waynwood and his bitterness as being "manipulated" against his will comes out as scorn towards 'Alayne' at the Gate. "Petyr" seemed quite certain Harry would ask Alayne to dance, but he has left it right until the very end which for mine implies he is fulfilling an 'obligation' to Lady Waynwood

There are some signs though through how he talks about his bastard daughters with genuine affection Oberyn style and the interactions between the two where pretense has been done away with that I think that within the machinations of Baelsih/Waynwoods both will do their own thing and Harry will be the first loyal ally Sansa courts

I found it coma inducing.

I enjoyed the writing

Think as well as plot points not being spoiled by show ala Mercy he released this to contrast Book Sansa with Malifisansa on the show which lacks all subtlety or literary character development skill

Spicey Sansa! She seems to be increasingly enjoying the Alayne persona, and the chance to be a little bit "wicked." But I couldn't help but to notice that she's anticipating the chance to laugh about it later with Petyr.

Lol at the giant lemoncake!

Did chuckle about that, LF flaunting the fact he has Sansa in front of everyone?

Probably important symbolically though as to how Sansa is slowly taking over, eg LF is playing with the LD but she is gaining influence over Sweetrobin who everyone thinks is going to die but he is set to get stronger as inferred by the fact he is getting his own bodyguard unit for a start and not being smothered by Lysa etc

I suddenly want Sweetrobin to survive a lot more than I did before.

Same here

anti-Bran Sweetrobin to defy everyone to become quite powerful I suspect

But they haven't casted Harry the Heir for the show, so this storyline is probably not going to happen.

Lol

A mix of Ramsay the Heir and Alayne Poole-Manderly-Dustin perhaps?