[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[PatrickStormborn]

Thinking about this chapter again... I thought it was appropriately-paced for an opening chapter, but unfortunately it may suggest a very slow opening for TWoW. It would have been a great chapter back when GRRM only had 8-10 POV characters, but with 20 POV characters, a prologue and two battles to cover... I'm expecting a very weak structure. Based on just what has been confirmed so far, here's a very rough prediction of how it could be structured:

Prologue - Barristan I - Victarion I - Tyrion I - Barristan II - Tyrion II - [other Battle of Meereen chapters] - Theon I - [other Battle in the Ice chapters, including Asha and possibly Bran] - Arianne I - Alayne I - Mercy - Damphair - [rumoured Jon Connington(*)] - Arianne II.

And all of that is without even addressing the most pressing cliffhangers with Jon, Dany, Jaime/Brienne, and Cersei. Presumably GRRM can get away with delaying Jon, Dany and Cersei because they all featured in the final chapters of ADwD (and as such they are ahead of other characters in the timeline), but how long can he realistically delay them when they're likely to have a significant portion of chapters in the book?

Bringing it back to the sample chapter, when will the follow-up take place? It looks like it has to take place soon in the timeline, but juggling so many POV characters would make it difficult to have the chapters placed close together.

(*) Included because GRRM has spoken about including a chapter between the two Arianne chapters.

The plotline is fairly obvious.

Sansa saves the day by making Harry infatuated with her as a person, without knowing about her title.

Sansa obviously has to sleep with him eventually, and once they are married, he becomes her puppet.

The food being stored will obviously end up feeding the North, once Littlefinger is removed and Sansa comes charging up the Neck in the redemptive snowcastle building arc that is so obviously intended for her.

Excuse me while I gag a little.

I got completely the opposite impression...

Things are going far too well for Sansa in the Vale, so everything is about to explode: Shadrich most likely knows who she is, Petyr is being careless with food(*), and Osney most likely has urgent news from Gulltown(**). My guess is that Sansa wins Harry over, but her position is endangered by Shadrich. As for the food stores... I'm expecting LF to use them as a political tool and for them to be all but depleted by the time the Wall falls. There's no way that food survives until winter.

(*) He only used up all the lemons, I know... But he expects to be able to import them from Dorne, whilst we know that Dorne is preparing to go to war and may be invaded by Daenerys.

(**) Osney's lathered horse clearly suggests that he heard something important in Gulltown. My guess, based on the fact that no one seems to be talking about it yet, is that he heard about Cersei and Margaery's arrests. This would fit if we assume that this chapter would have been the first Sansa chapter after the five-year gap, in which case it's probably too early for Osney to have heard about Aegon. I would expect some kind of reaction to Cersei's situation in the next chapter, although I'm not too sure the walk of shame will have taken place by that point. Basically the timeline is all over the place now that GRRM has caught up with the five-year gap.

And chalk up yet another point for Lemon Trees belonging in Dorne.

We already know that lemons are bought from Dorne.

But this does not indicate that privately-grown lemon trees do not exist outside Dorne.

[John Doe]

There's no way the food won't survive until winter. Winter is already there.

[The Holy Goat]

But has he slain a giant?

Giant who was running away? No. But he did slay fifty fossoway men-at-arms during the Battle for the Blackwater, along with two Fossoway knights, and captured another. And before that he rode in the Tourney of the Hand where he won over Jory Cassel (Captain of Winterfell's guard), drew against Aron Santagar (master-at-arms of the Red Keep), and finally lost against Robar Royce (member of the Rainbow Guard). He is also noted by Sansa to be surprisingly strong despite not being very tall. So I'd put him above Godry Farring. One has actually provenhimself deadly despite never boasting of it, while the other often boasts about being deadly, but might not be able to back it up.

It's the other way around, he saw that she was clever at at their first encounter. There are many levels betwenn "brainiac" and "dumbass".

How did he see that she was clever during their first encounter? He dismissed her right away. And he was obviously not clever enough to understand her when she made mock of him. I mean, the man claimed his actions were unforgivable... but then promptly declared that she must forgive him. When she made fun of that he just stared at her confused. Doesn't mean that he's an utter dumbass who can't tell which foot each boot goes on, but he's certainly not proven himself clever either. I mean, his opinion of what being clever means was witty insinuations about sex. That's a pretty low standard IMO.

[John Doe]

I would like to see Bronn vs Lothor. Bronn seems to be a pretty good fighter, but he didn't do as much as Lothor.

[Bironic]

(**) Osney's lathered horse clearly suggests that he heard something important in Gulltown. My guess, based on the fact that no one seems to be talking about it yet, is that he heard about Cersei and Margaery's arrests. This would fit if we assume that this chapter would have been the first Sansa chapter after the five-year gap, in which case it's probably too early for Osney to have heard about Aegon. I would expect some kind of reaction to Cersei's situation in the next chapter, although I'm not too sure the walk of shame will have taken place by that point. Basically the timeline is all over the place now that GRRM has caught up with the five-year gap.

We already know that lemons are bought from Dorne.

But this does not indicate that privately-grown lemon trees do not exist outside Dorne.

If Oswell has heard of Cersei's arrest, he has heard of the arrest of his own son(s) as well. I would have liked to hear the discussion between Oswell and Littlefinger.

Not the lemongate all over please.

[PatrickStormborn]

There's no way the food won't survive until winter. Winter is already there.

I meant the "real" winter - i.e. the Long Night.

This chapter takes place before the arrival of winter, anyway.

[ache]

(**) Osney's lathered horse clearly suggests that he heard something important in Gulltown. My guess, based on the fact that no one seems to be talking about it yet, is that he heard about Cersei and Margaery's arrests. This would fit if we assume that this chapter would have been the first Sansa chapter after the five-year gap, in which case it's probably too early for Osney to have heard about Aegon. I would expect some kind of reaction to Cersei's situation in the next chapter, although I'm not too sure the walk of shame will have taken place by that point. Basically the timeline is all over the place now that GRRM has caught up with the five-year gap.

I always thought the five year gap was supposed to be between aSoS and aFfC. Which would make Sansa's chapters in Feast the first Sansa chapters after the gap, right?. Though the fact that SampleChapter!Sweetrobin has acne supports your point.

[John Doe]

I meant the "real" winter - i.e. the Long Night.

This chapter takes place before the arrival of winter, anyway.

Meh. Baelish advices the lords to store food, not waste it.

[Darkbringer]

Hmm. I could see a conspiracy by some of the Lords Declarant, if certain things go certain ways. It all seems to revolve around money, as it does often with LF. Ser Shadrich has caught on to Sansa. He wants his gold (unless he works for Varys). Lyn Corbray is penniless and possibly turning on LF, out of resentment. If the scattered papers mean someone has gone through LF's stuff, I suspect it would be evidence of debts or similar that they would be after. Bronze Yohn is also no great fan of LF, and it seems Myranda is a)quite clever, and b- suspicious and resentful of Sansa's betrothal. Things seem to be pointing to a possible abduction of Sansa by Mad Mouse and Lyn, with support by Royces, who, as we just heard, have their own ports to ship her out on. Damn. I know its a bit of assumption, but that's my best guess. Something big is at the very least going to be attempted.

[Bironic]

Which knight do you think will get his "wings" ?

Lothor Brune, Lyn Corbray, Mychel Redfort seem to be the most able at the moment. Lyn Corbray as bodyguard of a little boy like Robert Arryn is a disgusting idea, perhaps it's him who kills Sweetrobin.

LF says that Bronze Yohn knows that Harry Hardyng isn't good enough to make it, and he also says that Bronze Yohn is honorable which makes him stupid. Perhaps LF will buy off harry's foes, like the Blackfyre supporters did in the Mystery Knight. I think Sansa knows enough about jousting to see through such a scheme. I mean it would be perfect for LF if Harry is around him for the next three years. The mad mouse could be an opponent of Harry, he certainly could use some gold.

[NotSoSilentSister]

How did he see that she was clever during their first encounter? He dismissed her right away. And he was obviously not clever enough to understand her when she made mock of him. I mean, the man claimed his actions were unforgivable... but then promptly declared that she must forgive him. When she made fun of that he just stared at her confused. Doesn't mean that he's an utter dumbass who can't tell which foot each boot goes on, but he's certainly not proven himself clever either. I mean, his opinion of what being clever means was witty insinuations about sex. That's a pretty low standard IMO.

Yep. Showing some appreciation for sassy banter doesn't quite make him an intellectual yet. I guess it's nice that he can handle a bit of backtalk from a girl, but you're all setting the bar really low if you're already taking that as a sign for a desire for a marriage of the minds. (Remeber how Theon was so into being sassed by not-yet-revealed-as-Asha? Still a proper douchebag through and through at this point).

Like, I won't rule out that he'll pull an Oakheart and prove tragically devoted down the road, but I'd be sorely disappointed in Sansa if she relied on him too much too fast.

[John Doe]

Yep. Showing some appreciation for sassy banter doesn't quite make him an intellectual yet.

So we agree he is at least as intelligent as most people in the books?

[PatrickStormborn]

Meh. Baelish advices the lords to store food, not waste it.

Okay... I'll reiterate: there's no chance GRRM lets that food be used to feed Westeros during the Long Night. It's too simple, it's too clean, it's too predictable.

There's another war coming: Euron is invading the Reach, Cersei and Margaery have been arrested, Stannis is marching south, Aegon has invaded the Stormlands, the Dornish have mobilised, and Daenerys is preparing her invasion.

Littlefinger will immediately see a way to gain a political advantage from the Vale's food sources - of that I have absolutely no doubt. And then no food will be left when the real threat arrives.

As I pointed out, Littlefinger's comment about importing lemons from Dorne looks like a glaring warning sign. We know that Dorne has mobilised and is preparing to go to war against the Lannisters. There have been hints that war will most likely reach Dorne itself. Littlefinger is taking far too much for granted, and it will be his downfall.

And just to make myself clear - he's clearly doing the right thing by holding onto food supplies until it increases in value. But I just don't think the food will survive past Dany's invasion. By that point, think how many armies will be mobilised in Westeros: Aegon and the Golden Company, the Lannisters, the Brotherhood without Banners, the Tyrells, the Dornish, Stannis's forces, the wildlings, Euron and the Ironborn, and then Daenerys with her dragons and most likely Dothraki with their horses.

I always thought the five year gap was supposed to be between aSoS and aFfC. Which would make Sansa's chapters in Feast the first Sansa chapters after the gap, right?. Though the fact that SampleChapter!Sweetrobin has acne supports your point.

The five-year gap would have taken place between ASoS and the fourth novel, then called ADwD. But it was mostly replaced with AFfC and ADwD (which now has little in common with the originally-planned ADwD).

Mercy would have been the first Arya chapter after the five-year gap. Here's what GRRM said about it:

I mentioned that this chapter had quite a history. It's true. The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous "five year gap," her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived. Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books. Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS. Of course, it has been revised, tightened, polished, and tweaked at every step of the way, so the version on my website has some significant differences from the "five year gap" version.

With this in mind, it looks to me like Alayne I would have been the first Sansa chapter after the five-year gap.

[Bironic]

Yep. Showing some appreciation for sassy banter doesn't quite make him an intellectual yet. I guess it's nice that he can handle a bit of backtalk from a girl, but you're all setting the bar really low if you're already taking that as a sign for a desire for a marriage of the minds.

Like, I won't rule out that he'll pull an Oakheart and prove tragically devoted down the road, but I'd be sorely disappointed in Sansa if she relied on him too much too fast.

Agreed. Or LF sends him on a glorious but impossible mission, like David did with Urias in the bible.

So we agree he is at least as intelligent as most people in the books?

Yes, I think so as yet. He's not Sam or Tyrion but he's not absolutely stupid either.

As I pointed out, Littlefinger's comment about importing lemons from Dorne looks like a glaring warning sign. We know that Dorne has mobilised and is preparing to go to war against the Lannisters. There have been hints that war will most likely reach Dorne itself.

And just to make myself clear - he's clearly doing the right thing by holding onto food supplies until it increases in value.

On the other Hand there is no need for Doran to stop export of Lemons to the Vale, unless the Vale actually supports the Lannister-Tyrell alliance with troops. Something LF will most likely not do. When/if the war reaches Dorne it's a different situation.

OTOH I can't see that Bronze Yohn is stupid enough to sell so much of his food that he has to buy and beg from LF.

[Free Northman Reborn]

People seem to think that there will be no food during the Long Night. Let's be clear. If this food from the Vale is not available, then we are seeing a mass die-off during the Long Night and that is not what I think will happen.

What is necessary is a look at the nuance here. Sure things won't go according to plan. But the plan is to use that food as a bargaining tool to advance Littlefinger's wealth and power. Not to feed the starving hordes of Westeros. What will go wrong, is that Littlefinger's plans will go up in smoke - likely due to the Mad Mouse's intervention, coupled with Sansa finally becoming her own agent, rather than simply his puppet.

So Littlefinger's intended use for the food won't happen. Instead, Sansa will take control of it and use it to feed the North. Jon himself mentioned that the likely place to buy food for the Watch with the Iron Bank's money, is the Vale. So the link has already been established.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Sansa and Stannis are the 2 characters I personally see as the most injected with rather than inherently possessing those qualities/symbolism seemingly most powerful to many of their fans. I know for example that a lot of the narrative was forced to change when GRRM said in an interview that Sansa did share responsibility for Ned's death, a concept that was damn near a hanging offense prior to that because of sincere and well argued positions which portrayed that argument as indicative of a shortcoming on the part of the reader.

Watching the adjustments after GRRM's quote circulated was uncomfortable enough to witness ( so much so that I intentionally bailed on the board in the immediate wake of his recent 'original notes' because I felt for those to whom that would feel like another unwelcome blow) but it did strengthen my sense that it might not just be me missing what's there, but in fact Sansa becoming representative of a particular narrative important to some people as it reflects on their own lives. That makes th experience more powerful, but it also tends to compromise objectivity more imo, and although this includes many of the best/smartest posters here, I do see a lot stated about Symbolic Sansa that I just don't think is really present in the textual character. I personally rarely debate about my favourite characters (Jaime, Oberyn, formerly Arya, Jon) because I feel too emotionally invested and therefore lacking detachment; my debates center on more intellectualized conflicts about characters like Renly, Stannis, Rhaegar, Robb, Cat, etc, who I wouldn't consider favourites...though over time enough arguing one side kind of moves the center of balance a bit too.

Eh, I have wandered way off my point, but all this was to contextualize the sense that I have never found the Sandor/Sansa dynamic to be any where near as central/loaded as so many involved in Sansa discussions seem to. Otoh I generally get annoyed at the belief that a romantic relationship is the ultimate rendition of human affection/chemistry. I personally find stories about friendship just as or even more moving/dramatic/emblematic as romance, and the assumption that any deep connection must at some level be romantic strikes me as sophomoric and shallow, so there's also that general objection to 'ships' as a rule...but although I think it's possible that the Hound and Sansa might have some future interaction, it has never ever seemed to me either assured or terribly important.

I am much more concerned with either character's development as individuals than charting their progression towards each other, and I think all the important growth happens to people as individuals rather than as part of a couple. The ultimate journey for Sansa as a character will be alone, whether or not she is alone with someone else. Her growth won't be affirmed or capped off by some romantic final destination, imo.

Anyways, just my 2 cents, though I spent a small fortune in words getting there.

This is the best summary of the Sansa phenomenon on this site. Well said and to end on a positive note, there are some newer voices rising that are far more objective in their analysis of Sansa so the discussion may be more balanced in the future. I think it might be an interesting exercise to understand why Sansa and Stannis are "the most injected with rather than inherently possessing those qualities/symbolism seemingly most powerful to many of their fans." Could be an interesting research project.

[John Doe]

There's no need to make up a plot device for getting Westeros rid of food. During the Long Knight and with large parts of the country devastated, the people will die soon enough.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think all that was said about Jon Arryn previously was that he was tall, with massive shoulders and was stronger than men half his age. I personally imagined a Liam Neeson type, but it appears he was quite handsome as well.

No, I really meant hair colour. And I found what I had read, though they are semi-canon sources

Lord Jon is a middle-aged man of average height, with a stocky build and the typical dark eyes and hair of an Arryn of the Eyrie. His jetblack hair is worn long but meticulously trimmed and his well-coifed black beard helps fill out his jaw and sagging neck. Both his hair and beard are starting to see signs of grey. He always dresses like a lord, in black or his house colors of light blue and white.

From the Alayne chapter

Men old enough to have known Jon Arryn in his youth said Ser Harrold had his look, she knew. He had a mop of sandy blond hair, pale blue eyes, an aquiline nose.

But "his look" doesn't mean "he was an almost identical copy of Jon Arryn".. The eye colour could be different... Or the hair colour... or the nose... It means that he mostly looked like Jon..

It's either that, or Jon Arryn's look has changed..

[Hodor the Articulate]

Well, being happy for the first time in years might have helped quite a bit with that... Other than that, the confidence surely is important, as well as her increased experience and Littlefinger's tutoring :)

From not acutely fearing for her a life for hot second maybe? From what we've gleamed in her fond recollections of Winterfell, she's been plenty playful there. Silent, subdued Sansa was a traumatized abusive victim in survival mode, not all that indicative of her natural temperament. What we see now is a Sansa who's slowy feeling at least momentarily safe enough to think beyond mere survival for a little bit.

We've seen normal, happy Sansa, back in the beginning of AGOT, and she wasn't like this. Obviously, she's a lot older now, and I don't expect her to be exactly the same as she was back then, but it's like she transformed into a completely different person, with a completely different personality, in that last bit of the chapter. Before, her ability to charm people came from her courtesy and grace. Here, she's sort of this cliche ideal girl, spouting sassy lines, and being overtly flirty - you know, like those "perfect women" types in male-lead movies, that end up being the love interest.

[Darkbringer]

This is the best summary of the Sansa phenomenon on this site. Well said and to end on a positive note, there are some newer voices rising that are far more objective in their analysis of Sansa so the discussion may be more balanced in the future. I think it might be an interesting exercise to understand why Sansa and Stannis are "the most injected with rather than inherently possessing those qualities/symbolism seemingly most powerful to many of their fans." Could be an interesting research project.

Frankly I find both your points of view condescending in a concerned-troll kind of way which really bugs me. I would rather go through a full flame war with a Patrick Stormborn or E-Ro or Mladen, even if I don't agree with their interpretations or fan-stan-dom, rather than anybody be 'put on the couch'. I think it sucks to not debate the points and tell people that their enthusiasm for a character is just invalid. Have robust debates,sure, but don't characterise peoples choice to support someone as inherently faulty unless you can prove it, which in ASOIAF will be hard indeed.

(for the record I am not a Sansa fan, not particularly anyway)