The Starks were never Theon's family

[Lee-Sensei]

1) This is what you said: "Theons feelings are very confused and in many cases unreliable in ADWD." That's a direct quote from this post of yours. Point number 5. Perhaps you didn't write what you meant, but it is what you've written.

2) Applying your logic: Where in the text it's explicitly stated that "Ned wanted a Greyjoy that wouldn't attack his people"?

3) Luwin says this: "Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late." You say this: "He wanted to turn Theon wolfish so that when Balon died and Theon was sent back he'd be an ally of the North." Again, by your own logic, those two are not equal at all.

Try. Harder.

4) Ned mentions repeatedly he loves his children? Really? Really not sure about that. I mean, I'm not sure there is an "explicit evidence" you usually demand when it suits you. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but I honestly don't remember Ned thinking something along the line of "God, I do love my children".

5) Is Hoster Blackwwod, Tytos' kid, a prisoner of Jaime? You really see no difference between the status of Hoster Blackwood and that of Edmure Tully?! FYI, a hostage in ASOIAF is someone who was given away by his own family! There's no point in his escape, because his family agreed to let him go. His escape makes sense only if his family is about to break the deal, which is why Ned issues the order about Theon in AGOT. But, before that, the only treat on Theon's life comes from Balon himself. If Balon misbehaves, Theon will pay. That is the deal. And since Balon suffered a crushing defeat and agreed to let Theon go as a hostage in the first, Theon's hypothetical escape would be pointless. Just like Hoster Blackwood's hypothetical escape would. Lannisters would simply demand him back, or to be given some other hostage, and Tytos would have to agree. That's why neither Theon nor Hoster Blackwood are physically restrained the way prisoners are. Their escape would make trouble only for their respective houses, and not for the houses that keep them as hostages. That doesn't make them free men, of course, but it also doesn't make them prisoners, no matter how many times you're going to repeat that.

1) This is getting tedious. What do you think he Luwin meant then?

2) I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body ? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

3) I'm not going to repeat it any more. You're reaching hard. Theon wasn't allowed to leave and that makes him a prisoner. I'll take any response to this point as a concession.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) This is what you said: "Theons feelings are very confused and in many cases unreliable in ADWD." That's a direct quote from this post of yours. Point number 5. Perhaps you didn't write what you meant, but it is what you've written.

2) Applying your logic: Where in the text it's explicitly stated that "Ned wanted a Greyjoy that wouldn't attack his people"?

3) Luwin says this: "Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late." You say this: "He wanted to turn Theon wolfish so that when Balon died and Theon was sent back he'd be an ally of the North." Again, by your own logic, those two are not equal at all.

Try. Harder.

4) Ned mentions repeatedly he loves his children? Really? Really not sure about that. I mean, I'm not sure there is an "explicit evidence" you usually demand when it suits you. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but I honestly don't remember Ned thinking something along the line of "God, I do love my children".

5) Is Hoster Blackwwod, Tytos' kid, a prisoner of Jaime? You really see no difference between the status of Hoster Blackwood and that of Edmure Tully?! FYI, a hostage in ASOIAF is someone who was given away by his own family! There's no point in his escape, because his family agreed to let him go. His escape makes sense only if his family is about to break the deal, which is why Ned issues the order about Theon in AGOT. But, before that, the only treat on Theon's life comes from Balon himself. If Balon misbehaves, Theon will pay. That is the deal. And since Balon suffered a crushing defeat and agreed to let Theon go as a hostage in the first, Theon's hypothetical escape would be pointless. Just like Hoster Blackwood's hypothetical escape would. Lannisters would simply demand him back, or to be given some other hostage, and Tytos would have to agree. That's why neither Theon nor Hoster Blackwood are physically restrained the way prisoners are. Their escape would make trouble only for their respective houses, and not for the houses that keep them as hostages. That doesn't make them free men, of course, but it also doesn't make them prisoners, no matter how many times you're going to repeat that.

1) This is getting tedious. What do you think he Luwin meant then?

2) I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body ? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

3) I'm not going to repeat it any more. You're reaching hard. Theon wasn't allowed to leave and that makes him a prisoner. I'll take any response to this point as a concession.

5 Posts. Sorry.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) This is what you said: "Theons feelings are very confused and in many cases unreliable in ADWD." That's a direct quote from this post of yours. Point number 5. Perhaps you didn't write what you meant, but it is what you've written.

2) Applying your logic: Where in the text it's explicitly stated that "Ned wanted a Greyjoy that wouldn't attack his people"?

3) Luwin says this: "Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late." You say this: "He wanted to turn Theon wolfish so that when Balon died and Theon was sent back he'd be an ally of the North." Again, by your own logic, those two are not equal at all.

Try. Harder.

4) Ned mentions repeatedly he loves his children? Really? Really not sure about that. I mean, I'm not sure there is an "explicit evidence" you usually demand when it suits you. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, but I honestly don't remember Ned thinking something along the line of "God, I do love my children".

5) Is Hoster Blackwwod, Tytos' kid, a prisoner of Jaime? You really see no difference between the status of Hoster Blackwood and that of Edmure Tully?! FYI, a hostage in ASOIAF is someone who was given away by his own family! There's no point in his escape, because his family agreed to let him go. His escape makes sense only if his family is about to break the deal, which is why Ned issues the order about Theon in AGOT. But, before that, the only treat on Theon's life comes from Balon himself. If Balon misbehaves, Theon will pay. That is the deal. And since Balon suffered a crushing defeat and agreed to let Theon go as a hostage in the first, Theon's hypothetical escape would be pointless. Just like Hoster Blackwood's hypothetical escape would. Lannisters would simply demand him back, or to be given some other hostage, and Tytos would have to agree. That's why neither Theon nor Hoster Blackwood are physically restrained the way prisoners are. Their escape would make trouble only for their respective houses, and not for the houses that keep them as hostages. That doesn't make them free men, of course, but it also doesn't make them prisoners, no matter how many times you're going to repeat that.

1) This is getting tedious. What do you think he Luwin meant then?

2) I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body ? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

3) I'm not going to repeat it any more. You're reaching hard. Theon wasn't allowed to leave and that makes him a prisoner. I'll take any response to this point as a concession.

[Frey Pie]

1) Abusive brothers that were dead. The rest? Not so much. Theon would probably have preferred to visit his family and friends on the Iron Islands.

2) Ned agreed to it and honestly, it's more likely that it was Neds idea and not Robert. How many rebelious Lords did he put down and how many hostages were taken? Neds a better person than Robert, but this one doesn't sound like him at all.

3) Why would Robb need to be on a boat? The North is a land power and hasn't had a powerful navy in over a thousand years. The IB?

Lord Balons Great Kraken and the warships of the Iron Fleet were made for battle, not for raids. They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained. The ironmen live their whole lives at sea. - Aurane Waters

4) All we know is what he's given us.

Abusive uncles? Crazy mother (partly because of theon leaving but I imagine the deaths of her two eldest also)? Bat shit insane father? Unfair standards? And yes of course theon would have liked to visit his home but....compromise. He wasn't in chains, nor in house arrest. A couple of hundred square mile arrest maybe

So Robert said let them off and Ned of all people (children) said Na Na Na hold up there Robert let's take the kid hostage? Not likely. I actually believe it was tywins idea, Robert agreed and then ned stepped in

Point is was ned supposed to bring ned to the sea and teach him sailing? When Robb has no need to learn?

[Lee-Sensei]

Abusive uncles? Crazy mother (partly because of theon leaving but I imagine the deaths of her two eldest also)? Bat shit insane father? Unfair standards? And yes of course theon would have liked to visit his home but....compromise. He wasn't in chains, nor in house arrest. A couple of hundred square mile arrest maybe

So Robert said let them off and Ned of all people (children) said Na Na Na hold up there Robert let's take the kid hostage? Not likely. I actually believe it was tywins idea, Robert agreed and then ned stepped in

Point is was ned supposed to bring ned to the sea and teach him sailing? When Robb has no need to learn?

You're going to far. The only uncle with that might abuse him is Euron and he's soon to be banished. Is there evidence he abused any of Balons other children? A mother that lobed him and a father that would too given how he feels about his other children.

What compromise? He had half his life stolen from him.

Its more likely to be Neds than Roberts. Although it was possibly Tywins. If Tywin wanted Theon hostage, he'd want him a hostage at Casterly Rock. In AGOT, Cersei nagged Robert into agreeing to send Robert Arryn to Casterly Rock (no doubt because she believed Jon told her about the Twincest). Ned says he'd take him, but Robert doesn't change his mind. That was family. What makes you think it would be different for Theon?

Theons a Greyjoy. It's kind of important.

[Miodrag]

Is Ned a good man? By the standards of the story he definitely is. is he better than the Greyjoys? Certainly. He's a better person than Theon. But Theon owing the Starks anything after they stole half his life? I can't agree wth that.

Starks didn't steal anything from Theon. His own father caused his troubles. Ned Stark is as guilty for Theon's troubles as he is for the death of Theon's brothers: he just happened to be on the victorious side. What's more, it was Balon himself who agreed for Theon to become a hostage, because the alternative was for Balon himself to be killed or imprisoned. Ned Stark was definitely not responsible for Theon's troubles. He just volunteered to take Theon as a hostage, but he didn't create the situation that lead to that point.

Theon was a hostage because of his father's actions and decisions and with his father's consent. Theon finally ceased to be a hostage because of Robb's decision. A man naturally loves his biological family, so it's at least understandable Theon sided with Greyjoys in ACOK, but in hindsight is it really that hard to understand who was better to Theon: Greyjoys or Starks?

1) This is getting tedious. What do you think he Luwin meant then?

It probably is tedious for you. Tasting your own medicine tends to be tedious, I'm afraid.

2) I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I’d stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don’t you?”

“With all my heart,” Ned said.

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body ? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

And that's it? He talks about his love for his children only when explicitly asked? And what about the last quote? It only proves Ned would rather kill some other child and not his own. Is that the proof of fatherly love?

No, sorry, that wasn't convincing at all. As you (the other you, from Theon situation, not the one who's arguing with me right now) would say: Ned's kids don't owe him anything. Not.A.Thing.

3) I'm not going to repeat it any more. You're reaching hard. Theon wasn't allowed to leave and that makes him a prisoner. I'll take any response to this point as a concession.

Yeah, I must be reaching. I'm trying to recognize a method in your reasoning. That looks like reaching more and more.

[Lee-Sensei]

Starks didn't steal anything from Theon. His own father caused his troubles. Ned Stark is as guilty for Theon's troubles as he is for the death of Theon's brothers: he just happened to be on the victorious side. What's more, it was Balon himself who agreed for Theon to become a hostage, because the alternative was for Balon himself to be killed or imprisoned. Ned Stark was definitely not responsible for Theon's troubles. He just volunteered to take Theon as a hostage, but he didn't create the situation that lead to that point.

Theon was a hostage because of his father's actions and decisions and with his father's consent. Theon finally ceased to be a hostage because of Robb's decision. A man naturally loves his biological family, so it's at least understandable Theon sided with Greyjoys in ACOK, but in hindsight is it really that hard to understand who was better to Theon: Greyjoys or Starks?

It probably is tedious for you. Tasting your own medicine tends to be tedious, I'm afraid.

And that's it? He talks about his love for his children only when explicitly asked? And what about the last quote? It only proves Ned would rather kill some other child and not his own. Is that the proof of fatherly love?

No, sorry, that wasn't convincing at all. As you (the other you, from Theon situation, not the one who's arguing with me right now) would say: Ned's kids don't owe him anything. Not.A.Thing.

Yeah, I must be reaching. I'm trying to recognize a method in your reasoning. That looks like reaching more and more.

1) By your twisted logic, its Neds fault Cersei took Sansa hostage.

2) That depends on who you're comparing. Ned vs. Balon? Neither were particularly good to him. Robb vs Balon? Robb. Robb vs. Dagmer? Dagmer.

3) You're reaching hard. He says flat out that he loved his children.

4) Yes. You are. And its embarassing.

[Lee-Sensei]

"Has my lord prince begun choosing his crew?" Esgred asked as they made their way toward the stable. "Ho, Bluetooth," she shouted to a passing seafarer, a tall man in bearskin vest and raven-winged helm. "How fares your bride?"

"Fat with child, and talking of twins."

"So soon?" Esgred smiled that wicked smile. "You got your oar in the water quickly."

"Aye, and stroked and stroked and stroked," roared the man,

"A big man," Theon observed. "Bluetooth, was it? Should I choose him for my Sea Bitch?"

"Only if you mean to insult him. Bluetooth has a sweet ship of his own."

"I have been too long away to know one man from another," Theon admitted. He'd looked for a few of the friends he'd played with as a boy, but they were gone, dead, or grown into strangers. "My uncle Victarion has loaned me his own steersman."

"Rymolf Stormdrunk? A good man, so long as he's sober." She saw more faces she knew, and called out to a passing trio, "Uller, Qarl. Where's your brother, Skyte?"

"The Drowned God needed a strong oarsman, I fear," replied the stocky man with the white streak in his beard.

"What he means is, Eldiss drank too much wine and his fat belly burst," said the pink-cheeked youth beside him.

"What's dead may never die," Esgred said.

"What's dead may never die."

Theon muttered the words with them. "You seem well known," he said to the woman when the men had passed on.

"Every man loves the shipwright's wife. He had better, lest he wants his ship to sink. If you need men to pull your oars, you could do worse than those three."

Notice how Asha's a well adjusted person with close and loyal friends? Notice how Theon... isn't. His friends were dead or strangers to him. Everything had changed. It was stolen from him and Neds a part of it whether you want to admit it ornot. Blame Balon too if you want, but it doesn't change the facts. Ned did him a disservice and Theon owes their family nothing.

[Miodrag]

1) By your twisted logic, its Neds fault Cersei took Sansa hostage.

First, Sansa isn't a hostage, but a prisoner. There's a difference, whether you stubbornly refuse to see it or not. Second, yes, Ned was careless in that entire situation, but his responsibility is not even close to the Balon's responsibility for the death of his two sons and for Theon's faith. The only similar thing is that they both lost. Apart from that, Ned's and Balon's respective responsibilities don't even begin to compare.

2) That depends on who you're comparing. Ned vs. Balon? Neither were particularly good to him. Robb vs Balon? Robb. Robb vs. Dagmer? Dagmer.

Honestly, I have absolutely no desire to find out how did you come up with these conclusions.

3) You're reaching hard. He says flat out that he loved his children.

Yes, when asked. He wasn't asked does he care for Theon. By your logic, we just don't know how much he did or didn't care for Theon.

4) Yes. You are. And its embarassing.

Here you may be right. Arguing with you tends to be somewhat embarrassing. Just like when you claimed Westerlands was a peaceful region Robb attacked without any provocation whatsoever.

You know, it'd be interesting to hear how would you handle the Balon situation after his rebellion failed. Would you let him live? If yes, would you demand some guarantees he's not going to rebel again? If not, if you'd kill him after all, what would that do to his kids? What would you do with his kids anyway, in that case? And, if you'd let Balon live, but take one of his children as a hostage, how would you treat that kid? What would you do different than Ned?

[Miodrag]

For all of you saying Theon doesn't owe Ned anything, please explain what would you do in Ned's shoes. What peace agreement would you reach with Balon? The way I see it, Ned (and Robert, of course), chose the best possible scenario even from Greyjoys perspective. Yeah, they took Balon's son as a hostage, but consider the alternatives: killing or imprisoning Balon (and his brothers), with both options leading to a power vacuum in the Iron Island, which is an invitation for all kinds of future troubles. Yeah, Ned took Balon's son with him, but what were the alternatives? Is there any other family where little Theon would have a better time than with Starks? And yes, Ned didn't treat Theon the way he treated his sons. But what was he supposed to do? Treat him like a son? Does that seem realistic? Would anyone do that?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it was easy for Theon, because it obviously wasn't. As I repeated many times in this discussion, it is perfectly normal Theon didn't think Starks were his family. It's also understandable that he sided with his biological family in ACOK. But really, what mistake did Ned do exactly? What is the great sin of Ned Stark in regards to Theon Greyjoy?

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1) Dany was just as involved as Viserys. Ned didn't care about Viserys because he was an adult and Dany wasn't.

2) You seem to be under the impression that it was Roberts idea to take a hostage. For all we know, it could have been Neds.

1) Dany was involved because of Viserys. From what we know of pre-dragon, pre-Slaver's Bay Dany, she would have perfectly content to live in her house with the red door and lemon tree for the rest of her days, or roam the Dothraki Sea with Drogo. Robert first got all hot and bothered because she had gotten married and would soon be pregnant with more dragonspawn, and that was why he wanted her killed, Viserys isn't even mentioned in the first conversation about killing Dany. Dany had zero choice in her situation (marrying Drogo) and Ned was astute enough to realize that, and rightfully argued she should not be punished for it. I'm sorry, but blaming Dany for the choices Viserys made is like Joffrey and Cersei blaming Sansa for Robb's actions.

When the Small Counsel learns of Dany's pregnancy, Viserys is mentioned exactly once by Robert, as an afterthought to Dany and Rhaego, and Ned argues against the assassination as a whole. It is Renly who mentions Viserys again, saying it was Jon Arryn who previous convinced Robert not to murder them as children, and Ned's response is "Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly." So the idea that Ned would have been 100% a okay with killing Viserys at this point is directly contradicted in the text. And if those were Ned's feelings towards Viserys, whose father outright murdered Ned's father and brother and who he had zero emotional connection to, I can only imagine his arguments against murdering Theon if Balon had rebelled again. Yes, Theon describes Ned as cold, but so do both Robert and Catelyn, and they arguably knew and loved him best. Some people are not outwardly affectionate, it doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

2) No, actually, I firmly believe it was Ned's idea to take a hostage because [a] Robert would have wanted him killed as squidspawn, and because it was a Northern practice.

"Aye, and why not?" Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. "Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it."

"None but those whose sires displeased the Kings o' Winter," said The Norrey. "Those came home shorter by a head. So tell me, boy ... if these wilding friends o' yours prove false, do you have the belly to do what needs to be done?"

Ask Janos Slynt. "Tormund Giantsbane knows better than to try me. I may seem a green boy in your eyes, Lord Norrey, but I am still a son of Eddard Stark."

ADWD, chapter 53.

And yes, I realize what is implied by being "a son of Eddard Stark". However, Ned also should have said "your wish is my command" when Robert wanted Dany murdered, and Ned argued and resigned rather than do something he did not believe was the right thing to do.

...

Now that's special. Ned allowed Theon a great many things he would never allow his sons (like being a dick to servants) which is rather curious and points to not caring all that much for me.

Theon got the worst beating he ever received in Winterfell when he knocked Old Nan down the stairs, and it was still less harsh than the beatings his older brothers gave him as a child.

[Lord Lannister]

For all of you saying Theon doesn't owe Ned anything, please explain what would you do in Ned's shoes. What peace agreement would you reach with Balon? The way I see it, Ned (and Robert, of course), chose the best possible scenario even from Greyjoys perspective. Yeah, they took Balon's son as a hostage, but consider the alternatives: killing or imprisoning Balon (and his brothers), with both options leading to a power vacuum in the Iron Island, which is an invitation for all kinds of future troubles. Yeah, Ned took Balon's son with him, but what were the alternatives? Is there any other family where little Theon would have a better time than with Starks? And yes, Ned didn't treat Theon the way he treated his sons. But what was he supposed to do? Treat him like a son? Does that seem realistic? Would anyone do that?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it was easy for Theon, because it obviously wasn't. As I repeated many times in this discussion, it is perfectly normal Theon didn't think Starks were his family. It's also understandable that he sided with his biological family in ACOK. But really, what mistake did Ned do exactly? What is the great sin of Ned Stark in regards to Theon Greyjoy?

Ned held Theon prisoner all his life. No it wasn't a harsh imprisonment or cruel for it's own sake, but the cage was there nonetheless. Theon had every right to be resentful towards that no matter how fond he was of Robb, Bran or any of the other Starks. You seem to be implying Theon owes Ned something for how lenient his imprisonment was yet in the same post declare Ned had no obligation towards Theon. It doesn't go both ways. If Theon's to owe Ned, Ned needs to meet him half way. If Ned doesn't owe Theon anything, then Theon doesn't need to be grateful. Really the Theon situation demonstrates how ineffective the whole hostage for good conduct system is. Sure it's a short term solution, but it just breeds long term resentment. But Robert would've been the one putting his stamp on any negotiation with Balon, so Ned was just doing as he was told.

[Miodrag]

Ned held Theon prisoner all his life. No it wasn't a harsh imprisonment or cruel for it's own sake, but the cage was there nonetheless. Theon had every right to be resentful towards that no matter how fond he was of Robb, Bran or any of the other Starks. You seem to be implying Theon owes Ned something for how lenient his imprisonment was yet in the same post declare Ned had no obligation towards Theon. It doesn't go both ways. If Theon's to owe Ned, Ned needs to meet him half way. If Ned doesn't owe Theon anything, then Theon doesn't need to be grateful. Really the Theon situation demonstrates how ineffective the whole hostage for good conduct system is. Sure it's a short term solution, but it just breeds long term resentment. But Robert would've been the one putting his stamp on any negotiation with Balon, so Ned was just doing as he was told.

Had you read my post a little more carefully, you'd clearly see I didn't say Ned owed Theon nothing. I said nobody would blame Ned had he denied Theon something, which is not the same thing. Ned decided to treat Theon the best he can, which is means that whatever he owed Theon, he delivered.

And no, I'm not saying Theon owes Ned something because of how lenient his imprisonment was. For starter, I'm not calling it imprisonment, you are. I see a difference between being a hostage a la Theon (or Hoster Blackwwod, for that matter), and being a prisoner. Really, the Hoster Blackwood situation can serve as a verbatim for that kind of negotiations. It is pretty clear that a hostage is accepted as safety clause for a peace agreement. Without such clause, there is no agreement. Without agreement, there is no peace. And then war lasts until only one side's left standing. When you consider all that, a hostage is effectively saving the lives of the rest of his family, and his own on top of that. Because, had Tytos refused to give his son as a hostage, Jaime would be forced to kill him, and then he'd have to kill any possible heir, and in no time you have another Rains of Castamere. All that is avoided because of a solution called hostage.

Having all that in mind, why don't you try and answer my question: After Balon's rebellion is crushed, what would you do in Robert's and Ned's shoes? Because, at that point, going to WF as a hostage looks to me like the best realistic scenario for Theon. He doesn't have to see it that way, and he obviously doesn't. He's a realistic character, hence, it only natural he doesn't think it that way. But we're neutral observers, so I'd really like to know what other solution was there for the Balon situation, that would please Theon more? Would he be better off if his father and uncles were beheaded, and he and Asha taken as prisoners?

[Frey Pie]

You're going to far. The only uncle with that might abuse him is Euron and he's soon to be banished. Is there evidence he abused any of Balons other children? A mother that lobed him and a father that would too given how he feels about his other children.

What compromise? He had half his life stolen from him.

Its more likely to be Neds than Roberts. Although it was possibly Tywins. If Tywin wanted Theon hostage, he'd want him a hostage at Casterly Rock. In AGOT, Cersei nagged Robert into agreeing to send Robert Arryn to Casterly Rock (no doubt because she believed Jon told her about the Twincest). Ned says he'd take him, but Robert doesn't change his mind. That was family. What makes you think it would be different for Theon?

Theons a Greyjoy. It's kind of important.

And Euron also abused aeron and Victarion. Vic smashed his wife's head in for cheating him. Crazy mother who loved him. Where are all of Theons friends? Dead? Off making slaves of mainland women?Sounds like a happy childhood to me if he stayed there. What about crazy uncle damphair who will try to drown hkm a few times? certainly far better then those crazy Starks

Ned didn't take half his life. He took him hostage by the order of the king. He's not doing it for shits and giggles. He gave him a home, food, education, a best friend etc etc. Yes he was a hostage but he was treated well and that is the only part of this that we can put squarely on ned. And what did theon do? Invade their home, betray his best friend, kill a few of their retainers, kill a few of his friends, sell out the capital to the craziest man in the north.

Theon says his house owes Ned's. Cersei says Robert should have destroyed the greyjoy house root and stem. Tywin has a history of such actions. Ned said he'd sooner entrust a child to a pit of snakes then Tywin Lannister. To me it seems that maybe (it's a theory of mine) Tywin wanted them destroyed, Bob and ned said no, Tywin asked for a hostage, Ned sees two children's bodies is crimson, Ned steps in and takes theon, Theons house owes Ned's house)

Its like you think all this is Ned's fault and theon can do no wrong

[Lee-Sensei]

First, Sansa isn't a hostage, but a prisoner. There's a difference, whether you stubbornly refuse to see it or not. Second, yes, Ned was careless in that entire situation, but his responsibility is not even close to the Balon's responsibility for the death of his two sons and for Theon's faith. The only similar thing is that they both lost. Apart from that, Ned's and Balon's respective responsibilities don't even begin to compare.

Honestly, I have absolutely no desire to find out how did you come up with these conclusions.

Yes, when asked. He wasn't asked does he care for Theon. By your logic, we just don't know how much he did or didn't care for Theon.

Here you may be right. Arguing with you tends to be somewhat embarrassing. Just like when you claimed Westerlands was a peaceful region Robb attacked without any provocation whatsoever.

You know, it'd be interesting to hear how would you handle the Balon situation after his rebellion failed. Would you let him live? If yes, would you demand some guarantees he's not going to rebel again? If not, if you'd kill him after all, what would that do to his kids? What would you do with his kids anyway, in that case? And, if you'd let Balon live, but take one of his children as a hostage, how would you treat that kid? What would you do different than Ned?

1) Sansa is a hostage and a prisoner. Much like Theon. Ned took a chance, he knew the risk and he lost. So his daughter was taken hostage. By your twisted logic, he is solely to blame and not Cersei. you know... the one actually taking the hostage.

2) By reading the book. Try it some time.

3) That's the thing, buddy. We get inside his head and it says out right that he loves his children.

[Frey Pie]

There is one person to blame for all this, and it's not theon or Ned. All of this lies on balon

[Frey Pie]

There is one person to blame for all this, and it's not theon or Ned. All of this lies on balon

[Lee-Sensei]

And Euron also abused aeron and Victarion. Vic smashed his wife's head in for cheating him. Crazy mother who loved him. Where are all of Theons friends? Dead? Off making slaves of mainland women?Sounds like a happy childhood to me if he stayed there. What about crazy uncle damphair who will try to drown hkm a few times? certainly far better then those crazy Starks

Ned didn't take half his life. He took him hostage by the order of the king. He's not doing it for shits and giggles. He gave him a home, food, education, a best friend etc etc. Yes he was a hostage but he was treated well and that is the only part of this that we can put squarely on ned. And what did theon do? Invade their home, betray his best friend, kill a few of their retainers, kill a few of his friends, sell out the capital to the craziest man in the north.

Theon says his house owes Ned's. Cersei says Robert should have destroyed the greyjoy house root and stem. Tywin has a history of such actions. Ned said he'd sooner entrust a child to a pit of snakes then Tywin Lannister. To me it seems that maybe (it's a theory of mine) Tywin wanted them destroyed, Bob and ned said no, Tywin asked for a hostage, Ned sees two children's bodies is crimson, Ned steps in and takes theon, Theons house owes Ned's house)

Its like you think all this is Ned's fault and theon can do no wrong

1) You didn't answer the question. When did Euron abuse Balons children? Calling her crazy is irrelevant. She loved him more than any Stark did, and might not have become crazy if he hadn'tt been taken hostage. His friends are dead or strangers to him. What they did is irrelevant. Aeron never drowned anyone to kill them, so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Like Ned if you want. Hes a better person than any Greyjoy. But don't argue that Theon should be grateful. Ned stole half of his life.

2) And there it is. Theres no evidence that Theon being taken hostage was Roberts idea. For all we know it was Neds. A gilded cage is still a cagee and Theon doesn't owe their family jack. If you were saying only Robb, at least I'd be able to understand. Just read my text I posted of Theon and Asha meeting Iron Islanders and compare him to Asha.

3) Tywin was considering marrying Cersei to Theon. I don't think he's holding a grudge. And if Tywin wanted Theon hostage, he wanted him at Casterly Rock. Robert was going to send Neds nephew to Tywin against Neds protests. Why woud he be more inclined to listen to him about a kid thats not a relative?

4) When did I say Theon can do no wrong? What I said is that Theon at the time was an innocent child that Ned took hostage. He stole half of his life. Theon owed the Starks what Sansa owed the Lannisters. Nothing.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

IF you are writing stuff along the lines of how "Theon was a member of the Stark family, biological family only means so much, bla bla bla" AND you were raised in an idyllic nuclear family with both your birth parents and full blooded siblings, INSTEAD OF a blended family, a broken home, an orphanage, were adopted, ever faced an impossible no good choice etc etc, kindly do STFU.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1) You didn't answer the question. When did Euron abuse Balons children? Calling her crazy is irrelevant. She loved him more than any Stark did, and might not have become crazy if he hadn'tt been taken hostage. His friends are dead or strangers to him. What they did is irrelevant. Aeron never drowned anyone to kill them, so I don't know why you're bringing it up. Like Ned if you want. Hes a better person than any Greyjoy. But don't argue that Theon should be grateful. Ned stole half of his life.

Interesting that you bring up his mother who, yes, she loved him more than anyone else ever did, I suppose. Sadly, she wasn't the first, not even the second, person Theon sought out to see when he arrived home after so many years, though... Remind me, did he ever went to visit her at all?

Too much talk about Theon not oweing to the Starks and yada-yada, let's see how he treated those to whom he did owe.