The Starks were never Theon's family

[INCBlackbird]

Yeah, I did write that as a hostage in Winterfell Theon got "probably more than he'd get even in his biological family", which was a very poor wording, have to admit. It sounded like a support for some Nazi-style social engineering. Sorry about that.

I really didn't mean to imply he was better off in WF than at his home. If taken under peaceful circumstances, as a true ward, Theon'd probably be better off with the Starks than with any house patriarch of which is Balon Greyjoy. But, he wasn't taken under peaceful circumstances, and therefore he couldn't be better off, even if it may appear so to neutral observers like us.

I disagree, however, with your remark that he didn't owe Starks anything. Even he now realizes he did. At least, he owed them not to deliver the crucial blow to their war efforts. Not because laws or traditions say so, but because Theon himself didn't want it, and yet that is precisely the outcome he managed to produce with his invasion on Winterfell.

oh yeah I agree with that.

but he didn't take winterfell to ruin the Starks, he doesn't do it for revenge and I don't even think he thinks about what it will do to the Starks. He IS very self absorped (but honestly considering what he's been through I don't blame him for that) his intension was never for Winterfell to be ruined (he didn't burn it) or for Robb to die (notice how he wished he'd died with him) all he was really thinking about was that he wanted a place to belong, Winterfell symbolised that place for him and he wanted to make his wish come true, and it failed because Theon is a horrible leader partially because he is constantly in his own head thinking more about his own emotions about the situation than the situation itself, which is pretty much the most ineffective thing you can do as a leader (it works as a hostage though, which is where he learned that defense mechanism). and I don't think it's fair to judge people on the outcome of something they didn't intend to happen (especially when there's a bunch of other reasons for that outcome caused by other people, of whom a lot didn't intend the final outcome either.) The mistake Theon made was being too emotional about everything, but it was totally justified of him to side with his own house and if his father decides to fight against the Starks than Theon has to do so either. taking Winterfell went a little overboard but not because Theon wanted revenge on the Starks, it's because he couldn't let go of Winterfell after being rejected in Pyke.

[Frey Pie]

you compared the two situations as if they are equal. which clearly they are not.

I did not say Ned threatened Theon with death, I said Theon lived under threat of death as in he knew that if his father rebelled Ned would kill him (and don't start argueing that Ned wouldn't have done it, that's irrelevant to the point. the point is that Theon believed he would have because that was the situation he was in, as per GRRM)

Not as if they were equal, I highlighted some of the differences and many of the similarities. I think Ned owes jon Arryn alot and I also think Theon owes ned a lot

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I love how people completely ignore everything Theon ever says about Winterfell and the Starks in an attempt to paint him as some poor, innocent victim of circumstance who had no choice but to betray them.

I see that as a proof of how convincing GRRM's writing is about how the characters feel about themselves and how readers buy it despite the texts subtetly hints otherwise. Another example I see is Jaime and how he feels about his children. It's not like he says "oh, fuck those kid, I don't care" like many claim. Is that has HAD to teach himself to feel this way about it, but it is still something he resents deeply, as he wanted at least to hold Joffrey in his arms and Cersei didn't allow it. Many things in the books hint this is also a regret of him.

In the case of Theon, it's a crossroad for him. Of course, living among the Starks as a hostage -which, yeah, he was- was a position in which he was a submissive player and a piece of some other men's games (his presence in WF assured the obedience of Balon). His pride was to keep seeing himself as the Greyjoy heir, which he also still was (that's a completely different situation from Edmure, in which he's a hostage with zero rights to his original claims as he was defeated by the Lannisters). The fact he was friends with Robb indicated that his status in Winterfell was as high as possible, but at the same time, Jon was as close as Robb as he could be as well, and, unlike Theon, he was a Stark by blood, something Theon was never going to be and also resented, hence his attitude of "fuck yeah, I'm fucking on Ned Stark's bed!".

And like Jaime, there is a lot of mental work made up by his own brain to justify his actions, actions he sees as wrong as he, like Mithras said above, also considers kinslaying deep inside.

[Maid So Fair]

everyone should treat eachother fairly but when treated fairly that doesn't mean that therefore you owe the other person special thanks for treating them fairly. Theon was still a Greyjoy and therefore he should have been on the side of the Greyjoys (what Theon really wanted though was for the Greyjoys and the Starks to work together because he wanted to be on both sides but that didn't work out) when Balon makes the choice to fight the Starks, Theon can't change that, it is not his responsibility, not his choice and he has to make the best of it.

You don't owe them special thanks, but you owe it to them to also treat them fairly (and the Starks went well beyond merely treating him fairly). Did Theon? The Starks didn't attack the Greyjoys without provocation, just because they could, generally treated Theon extremely well, and Robb released him. He responds by attacking them without provocation, murdering some of the people who looked after him for years and betraying Robb's trust in the worst way possible. And it's ALL his choice since it was his idea to attack Winterfell, not Balon's. In other words, what horrible deed did Robb/the Starks commit to deserve such a hateful response?

[James Arryn]

I agree. His only betrayal was personally to Robb. He's not a traitor, turncloak or w/e and owed the North/House Stark absolutely bupkis. I think the scene where he repents in the Godswood is one of Martin's worst choices, and I say all this not particularly liking Theon. When we thought he was dead I wasn't too bothered.

[INCBlackbird]

You don't owe them special thanks, but you owe it to them to also treat them fairly (and the Starks went well beyond merely treating him fairly). Did Theon? The Starks didn't attack the Greyjoys without provocation, just because they could, generally treated Theon extremely well, and Robb released him. He responds by attacking them without provocation, murdering some of the people who looked after him for years and betraying Robb's trust in the worst way possible. And it's ALL his choice since it was his idea to attack Winterfell, not Balon's. In other words, what horrible deed did Robb/the Starks commit to deserve such a hateful response?

It WAS Balon's choice though. as stated before, Theon wanted the starks and the Greyjoys to work together! Do you deny that he did? But he couldn't convince Balon of that plan, Balon decided to attack the north because he held a stupid grudge against them. Theon had no choice but to go along with it. Winterfell was his idea, sure but they were already at war and it wasn't his intension to take revenge or anything like that. He wanted the people of Winterfell to like him! and yes, he went about it in a really dumb way, because who would like you if you've just invaded them but to Theon it made sense! so it wasn't a hatefull response at all, it was done out of desparation! The Starks didn't deserve it, but neither did Theon deserve to be a victim of circemstances. people rarely get what they deserve in westeros...

[Lee-Sensei]

He cared enough to give him a proper civil and military education, for example. Also, it seems Theon was treated better than, say, Jeyne Poole was, because I don't think Jeyne - the best friend of Ned's eldest daughter - was regularly dining with the Starks. I don't know where is this "Ned didn't really care about Theon" coming from.

Have you seen a polite fiction? Educating a highborn hostage is his job. Theon got to eat with the Starks because he's highborn. Thats all there is to it.

[Maid So Fair]

It WAS Balon's choice though. as stated before, Theon wanted the starks and the Greyjoys to work together! Do you deny that he did? But he couldn't convince Balon of that plan, Balon decided to attack the north because he held a stupid grudge against them. Theon had no choice but to go along with it. Winterfell was his idea, sure but they were already at war and it wasn't his intension to take revenge or anything like that. He wanted the people of Winterfell to like him! and yes, he went about it in a really dumb way, because who would like you if you've just invaded them but to Theon it made sense! so it wasn't a hatefull response at all, it was done out of desparation! The Starks didn't deserve it, but neither did Theon deserve to be a victim of circemstances. people rarely get what they deserve in westeros...

It was Balon's choice to attack the North, but all that was required of Theon was to raid the Stony Shore. That's all duty to his family demanded. Instead, and completely on own initiative, he chooses to use his own insider knowledge to strike the blow that he knows will hit the Starks the hardest. And why? To win personal glory and with it the approaval of the Iron Born at the expense of his friend and his adoptive family. It was his decision, made out of his own free will, and as such he bears complete responsibility for it. His intentions while doing so are ultimately irrelevant because intentions =/= outcomes.

As for being done out of desperation? :bs: There was nothing desperate about his situation whatsoever.

[Lee-Sensei]

The whole thing started when they found out Dany was pregnant - before that everyone seemed content to let the Mad King's remaining children roam Essos begging for an army. Dany was still a child, and had done nothing in Ned's eyes to warrant her execution. Viserys was trying to foment a rebellion aka committing treason against the crown. Even if Balon had acted out while Ned and Robert were still alive, I sincerely doubt Ned would have said "sure Robert, go ahead amd kill the boy I've raised with and in the same manner as my own sons." Ned would have fought tooth and nail to protect the life of an innocent, which is what Theon would have been.

1) Dany was just as involved as Viserys. Ned didn't care about Viserys because he was an adult and Dany wasn't.

2) You seem to be under the impression that it was Roberts idea to take a hostage. For all we know, it could have been Neds.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

(1) It WAS Balon's choice though. as stated before, Theon wanted the starks and the Greyjoys to work together! Do you deny that he did?

(2) But he couldn't convince Balon of that plan, Balon decided to attack the north because he held a stupid grudge against them. Theon had no choice but to go along with it.

(3) Winterfell was his idea, sure but they were already at war and it wasn't his intension to take revenge or anything like that.

(4) He wanted the people of Winterfell to like him! and yes, he went about it in a really dumb way, because who would like you if you've just invaded them but to Theon it made sense! so it wasn't a hatefull response at all, it was done out of desparation!

(5) The Starks didn't deserve it, but neither did Theon deserve to be a victim of circemstances. people rarely get what they deserve in westeros...

(1) Why did he want that? Because (he thought) it would give him his moment of glory. Nothing well intentioned there, only his selfish dellusions.

(2) There is always a choice, but it's very understandable, and in Westeros it's also the right thing to do. No problem here. But did je just go along? No. And that takes us to the next...

(3) "They were already at war" is not an excuse. It's like saying: "I didn't want to kill the policeman but I was already doing a robbery". How TF does it make it any better? If the justification is that, he did it to help his side then we already know the answer, no, it was done to help his self image.

That it was not in his intention to take revenge invokes the other lame (and, in fact, vile) "excuse" of "nothing personal". No shit. It makes everyone to feel so much better: - I don't hate you, but your children have to die so that I can save face, and you have to die too so that you don't tell. - It's all right dear, I understand. Ridiculous much, no?

(4) See above. It wasn't hatefull, I only did it for myself. You owe me some love because of that. Really? A bad lawyer migh resort to the desperate moron excuse but please.

(5) The tough luck argument might be countered by the karma is a bitch one - but I hate them both as justifications for anything.

In short:

Everyone experience their own big or small personal drama but having issues is not the magical key to being pardonned and justified for everything. Nor do they exclude anyone from the obligation of reciprocity in their personal / social relationships. (Alternatively, just don't whine that people don't love you.)

The argument for Theon goes only as far as justifying him for chosing his blood family over his friend. The rest is total BS.

[Lee-Sensei]

So theon is often called a ward and a hostage.

Ned was a ward of Jon Arryns. Jon fed and clothed him, thought him his values, educated him, honoured his ranking, thought him how to wage war etc.

Ned wasn't a hostage, Frey Pie. He got to go home. He was able to leave at 16. Can you think of one example from Neds chapters where he shows that he cared about Theon?

[Steelborn]

That is probably the 1000th time I'll have this argument, but I agree. He was a hostage, brought to Winterfell as a way to prevent his father from rebelling again (Was that how Ned was taken to Jon Arryn? I don't think so). He was treated well, ate at their table because he was highborn, heir to the Iron Islands.

Since he was taken at a young age and spent all these years in the North, he had embraced its culture and wanted to feel home there (... cough... daenerys... cough...) although Winterfell didn't treat him the same (that is the beginning of his conflict).

If you want to nitpick about him, do it for the Miller's boys and for betraying only Robb, not his one true good family the Starks.

[Miodrag]

Have you seen a polite fiction? Educating a highborn hostage is his job. Theon got to eat with the Starks because he's highborn. Thats all there is to it.

Yeah, Ned only did what he was obliged to do. Otherwise, The Royal Committee for High Education would definitely revoke his license. Because, you know, Westeros is famous for its unusually high standards in respecting the letter of law on the treatment of hostages. Even if the law doesn't exist actually.

Seriously now, looks like some of you take Martin's explanations very literally. When he was explaining the status of hostages in that video someone posted, he was filling the blanks for those among watchers that didn't read the books. For book readers, such explanations are hardly necessary, because the societies in ASOIAF are fleshed out from almost all angles imaginable. Yes, it is a strict feudal system, in which high lords are expected to be treated better than the regular folks. And they usually are. But, it is also a society in which military defeat seems to be as big a sin as any. Castamers might say something about it. If their highborn selves weren't annihilated, that is. Theon from ADWD could also testify. You know, he didn't cease to be highborn, but he's treated as the lowest of the lows, and everyone in The North can clearly see that, and is anyone bothered by it? Of course not.

All of which means that, had Ned Stark denied Theon some of those rights you think were guaranteed to him, or even all of them, not a single voice would rise in protest. The very fact Ned chose to treat Theon the way he did, speaks against your theory that he didn't care about Theon at all. I mean, in the very first chapter he appears in, Theon kicks Gared's head: does that little scene really leave the impression he's mistreated in any way? Would any hostage of Boltons, or Lannisters for that matter, feel free to kick a head in a similar situation? Hardly.

Theon was treated as good as any hostage, and that speaks a lot about Ned Stark's attitude toward the lad. It doesn't mean he ceased to be a hostage. He didn't. It doesn't mean he was obliged to turn against his biological family. He wasn't. But, even if Starks weren't his family, perhaps Winterfell is what he considered his home, as scenes from ADWD appear to be indicating. And if that is the case, if Theon really grew to see Winterfell as his home, well, that wouldn't be possible if Ned Stark didn't care about him at all, as you keep repeating. It'd be wrong to mistake Ned's attitude toward Theon for fatherly feelings, but it is equally absurd to think he didn't care about Theon at all just because Martin didn't find it necessary to detail Ned's relationship with every single member of the Starks household.

[James Arryn]

Yeah, Ned only did what he was obliged to do. Otherwise, The Royal Committee for High Education would definitely revoke his license. Because, you know, Westeros is famous for its unusually high standards in respecting the letter of law on the treatment of hostages. Even if the law doesn't exist actually.

Seriously now, looks like some of you take Martin's explanations very literally. When he was explaining the status of hostages in that video someone posted, he was filling the blanks for those among watchers that didn't read the books. For book readers, such explanations are hardly necessary, because the societies in ASOIAF are fleshed out from almost all angles imaginable. Yes, it is a strict feudal system, in which high lords are expected to be treated better than the regular folks. And they usually are. But, it is also a society in which military defeat seems to be as big a sin as any. Castamers might say something about it. If their highborn selves weren't annihilated, that is. Theon from ADWD could also testify. You know, he didn't cease to be highborn, but he's treated as the lowest of the lows, and everyone in The North can clearly see that, and is anyone bothered by it? Of course not.

All of which means that, had Ned Stark denied Theon some of those rights you think were guaranteed to him, or even all of them, not a single voice would rise in protest. The very fact Ned chose to treat Theon the way he did, speaks against your theory that he didn't care about Theon at all. I mean, in the very first chapter he appears in, Theon kicks Gared's head: does that little scene really leave the impression he's mistreated in any way? Would any hostage of Boltons, or Lannisters for that matter, feel free to kick a head in a similar situation? Hardly.

Theon was treated as good as any hostage, and that speaks a lot about Ned Stark's attitude toward the lad. It doesn't mean he ceased to be a hostage. He didn't. It doesn't mean he was obliged to turn against his biological family. He wasn't. But, even if Starks weren't his family, perhaps Winterfell is what he considered his home, as scenes from ADWD appear to be indicating. And if that is the case, if Theon really grew to see Winterfell as his home, well, that wouldn't be possible if Ned Stark didn't care about him at all, as you keep repeating. It'd be wrong to mistake Ned's attitude toward Theon for fatherly feelings, but it is equally absurd to think he didn't care about Theon at all just because Martin didn't find it necessary to detail Ned's relationship with every single member of the Starks household.

Ned being moral towards Theon doesn't require Ned to feel anything about Theon. It's more to do with how Ned feels about himself.

[Miodrag]

Ned being moral towards Theon doesn't require Ned to feel anything about Theon. It's more to do with how Ned feels about himself.

OK, what do we mean by feelings in this discussion? Are we discussing if Ned tucked Theon into bed every night? I don't think so. Nor do I think Ned was tucking anyone into bed, but that's another matter. In any case, I'd like to know what do you think would be a positive indication of Ned's feelings toward Theon?

[James Arryn]

OK, what do we mean by feelings in this discussion? Are we discussing if Ned tucked Theon into bed every night? I don't think so. Nor do I think Ned was tucking anyone into bed, but that's another matter. In any case, I'd like to know what do you think would be a positive indication of Ned's feelings toward Theon?

Any overtly expressed concern for his feelings about things, generally or in particular. I think Ned was a very moral person, meaning he's likely to treat everyone well unless he has soecific cause not to. I don't think the subjects of his moral behaviour matter much other than whether or not they give him what he sees as cause.

I think his feelings towards Theon were generally beneficent because that's how Ned is.

[Frey Pie]

Ned wasn't a hostage, Frey Pie. He got to go home. He was able to leave at 16. Can you think of one example from Neds chapters where he shows that he cared about Theon?

I never said he was. My point was that they were treated similarly.

Tbh I can't remember any example of ned interacting one on one with theon. But he did try to impart his way of living on theon (gentling him as Luwin put it) and raised him as one of his own children. Did he care for him as much as Robb? Obviously not but I would think Ned would care for anyone who lived with his family no matter who they are as long as they live in peace with them

Theon has mixed feelings on ned but we don't have much to go on the other way

[Lee-Sensei]

I never said he was. My point was that they were treated similarly.

Tbh I can't remember any example of ned interacting one on one with theon. But he did try to impart his way of living on theon (gentling him as Luwin put it) and raised him as one of his own children. Did he care for him as much as Robb? Obviously not but I would think Ned would care for anyone who lived with his family no matter who they are as long as they live in peace with them

Theon has mixed feelings on ned but we don't have much to go on the other way

Except that they weren't. Ned got to go home and be with his family. Theon was a prisoner.

You couldn't give an example from Neds chapters that showed Ned caring about Theon?

[Lee-Sensei]

Yeah, Ned only did what he was obliged to do. Otherwise, The Royal Committee for High Education would definitely revoke his license. Because, you know, Westeros is famous for its unusually high standards in respecting the letter of law on the treatment of hostages. Even if the law doesn't exist actually.

Seriously now, looks like some of you take Martin's explanations very literally. When he was explaining the status of hostages in that video someone posted, he was filling the blanks for those among watchers that didn't read the books. For book readers, such explanations are hardly necessary, because the societies in ASOIAF are fleshed out from almost all angles imaginable. Yes, it is a strict feudal system, in which high lords are expected to be treated better than the regular folks. And they usually are. But, it is also a society in which military defeat seems to be as big a sin as any. Castamers might say something about it. If their highborn selves weren't annihilated, that is. Theon from ADWD could also testify. You know, he didn't cease to be highborn, but he's treated as the lowest of the lows, and everyone in The North can clearly see that, and is anyone bothered by it? Of course not.

All of which means that, had Ned Stark denied Theon some of those rights you think were guaranteed to him, or even all of them, not a single voice would rise in protest. The very fact Ned chose to treat Theon the way he did, speaks against your theory that he didn't care about Theon at all. I mean, in the very first chapter he appears in, Theon kicks Gared's head: does that little scene really leave the impression he's mistreated in any way? Would any hostage of Boltons, or Lannisters for that matter, feel free to kick a head in a similar situation? Hardly.

Theon was treated as good as any hostage, and that speaks a lot about Ned Stark's attitude toward the lad. It doesn't mean he ceased to be a hostage. He didn't. It doesn't mean he was obliged to turn against his biological family. He wasn't. But, even if Starks weren't his family, perhaps Winterfell is what he considered his home, as scenes from ADWD appear to be indicating. And if that is the case, if Theon really grew to see Winterfell as his home, well, that wouldn't be possible if Ned Stark didn't care about him at all, as you keep repeating. It'd be wrong to mistake Ned's attitude toward Theon for fatherly feelings, but it is equally absurd to think he didn't care about Theon at all just because Martin didn't find it necessary to detail Ned's relationship with every single member of the Starks household.

1) What are you talking about? Of course educating a higborn child hostage was part of his job.

2) He's treated as the lowest of the low because he's in the North surrounded by Stark lovers and he "killed" Neds boys. It's not because he was defeated.

3) I don't see why they'd care if he kicked a head. Educating a hostage is the job. George said so himself. Heck, Sansa was taught to play the harp while bein held hostage at Kings Landing.

4) Yes. Theon was treated like any hostage would be when not held by people like Ramsay and Joffrey.

5) Theons feelings are very confused and in many cases unreliable in ADWD.

[Miodrag]

Any overtly expressed concern for his feelings about things, generally or in particular. I think Ned was a very moral person, meaning he's likely to treat everyone well unless he has soecific cause not to. I don't think the subjects of his moral behaviour matter much other than whether or not they give him what he sees as cause.

I think his feelings towards Theon were generally beneficent because that's how Ned is.

Just to point out that I was discussing did Ned care of Theon at all, and not what he felt toward Theon. As a moral person we both see him as, I don't think Ned was distant and cold toward a ten years old boy, which is how old Theon was when he came to WF. Everything we know about Ned indicates he didn't treat Theon only to the extent the society would expect, but better. Denying a child in Theon's position any warmth would be immoral, and, again, we can agree Ned was anything but immoral.

Of course, when Theon grew little older, he realized Ned did keep him at a certain distance, for, you know, just in case scenario. There's not way for that realization to not be disturbing. However, that was also not Ned's fault. Ned didn't have the privilege to forget Theon's a hostage.

And yet, when he returns to The Pyke, Theon realizes his own father and his own uncle are colder to him than Ned was. That also speaks to something.