The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[Mychel_Redfort]

I'm simply saying that rather than the moons holding the axis steady gravitationally and then creating a wobble when one is destroyed, giving us an astronomical explanation, we might have two magical moons holding the magical forces of ice and fire in balance and then magically throwing the seasons of when one is destroyed, giving us an astrological explanation .

OK, I get your point, and I find the astrological part really interesting. GRRM introduced astrology when he had Jon think "And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted.", so maybe he did it on purpose.

Mychael Redfort did you check out the article about the scientific possibilities for the irregular seasons?

I just did. #1 would need the axis to wobble, #2 implies regular seasons, #3 rather works for long-term changes like ice ages, and #4 could explain the changes in severity but not the unpredictability.

[LmL]

Apologies. I should have quoted this:

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#16 Lucifer means Lightbringer

I really tried hard to find the pattern of the comet's recurrence... Not seeing anything regular happening every 16 or 17 years (the time since Aegon's birth and the last comet sighting), I tried combinations of numbers to add to 17, like 17 and 25, in case it was an irregular comet. I tried to see if anything lined up with Summerhall, the birth of "dragon" Targs, or other similar big events. I was not able to find a pattern. If the comet does trigger something each time it passes - most likely war, or something magical - then there should be a pattern. I just couldn't find it.

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1) "A comet was seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, which led his father Rhaegar Targaryen to believe that he was the prince that was promised. The comet was seen as "the bleeding star" of the prophecy."

2) Aegon was born a few months before the Rebellion so he was born in late 281 or early 282. Rhaegar left Dragonstone with 6 companions shortly after the turn of the new year (282).

3) Lyanna was born in either 266 or 267 as she was 16 when she died in 283. So conception window would approximate 265 - late 267.

As I understand the above, you are looking for an auspicious occurrence at an interval of 16-17 years since the comet was last spotted (Aegon's conception), so would Lyanna's birth or conception fit?

It certainly could. I was focusing on Targaryen (dragon) births and other dragon-related stuff. Maybe that's why I didn't find a pattern, maybe I need to look outside of Targ history.

[LmL]

{big snip}

Hmmmmm that is really intresting. Now given the order of events I did on the trident this makes even more sence. Then of course the metaphore for the apples works well.

Don't take this the wrong way because I do appreciate the astronomy, but that thing you hit on with the apples is a rather brilliant find. Of all of it that appears to be a very strong metaphore. Not that any of it is bad, it's just that really has my attention.

It seems to me that when George crafts one of these highly metaphorical scenes, he's always addressing more than one "level" of symbolism. He's talking about the astronomy, yes, but also about the nature of sphinxes and dragon bonding and the Faceless Men duality and all the rest if the stuff you brought up. My conclusion is that George RR Martin is fucking brilliant, and he has a very large capacity for juggling multiple ideas and not dropping any balls, so to speak. It's quite challenging just to wrap your brain around part of the whole picture... His symbolism has been analyzed from so many angles, and each one is rich and complex. And they all OVERLAP, that's the real crazy part. As I said in my opening paragraph, these multiple levels of symbolism are woven together in a mind blowingly complex, multi-layered tapestry. It's like 3-D chess, if you've ever played that, but with 7 dimensions and hundreds of chess pieces.

[Voice]

It's like 3-D chess, if you've ever played that, but with 7 dimensions and hundreds of chess pieces.

So it's Cyvasse then

[LmL]

So it's Cyvasse then

Touché!

We can all eagerly await Tyrion's fever dream where multiple cyvasse boards are swirling about him in a hallucinogenic fog.... That will be the payoff. That and when George slips in a character named "Thundarr" somehow.

*chuckles*

[White Ravens]

The one problem I come acrosss with a comet destroying a second moon, and I mean destorying it, is that the moon is in gravitational orbit of planetos. The debris would not bee little chunks like dragon eggs, your talking about a maybe 10 km comet blowing away moon the earth was believed to have been hit by a comet between 5-10 KM in diameter, it was an extincsion level event. When the remains of moon which is 200 - 400 km wide drops on your planet it's game over.

Now I know little and less about astronomy other than I once got within a few hundred feet of a meteroite that happened shoot past me one night. But I am really curious about a couple of things. What if said moon was not destroyed. Is there some kind of orbit where they could not see it Obviously a smaller natural satalite. Or maybe some kind of Elliptic Orbit? Rocks falling to a planet is not uncommon at all. But I have been trying to figure out this sort of hidden moon idea. But astronomy is not my thing.

Now given it is magical, and probably less prone to sci fi, that does not mean Martin a noted sci fi writer as well as fantasy did not let a little slip in. But probably not to much. The long Night, Darkness, Mel walks three circles around the fire. Parallel Orbits some sort of Pitch Black really heavy sci fi would seem odd. Plus only happening once every you know 2000 - 8000 years seems odd. Though cloud cover can explain a lot, though covering a planet in a cloud seems like a big jump in magic. Cause it is mentioned the stars and the son were hidden. So it's like total eclipse or total magical world wide cloud cover. Are they in the shadow of another planet or something are there any cases like that? May have some sort of homage to Dying of the light related to it.

Martin does his ressearch, even if it is magical or science fiction he likes an explination that makes sense.

Now I ask if the second moon may not have been destroyed for a reason. A black mooon would seem to fit the symbolism in the books. Dany while bathing in the womb of the world gives us some imagery for the current moon and Dragons. Now there is the is other dragon, dressed black who is hidden and he also has some moon symbolism and the other moon is shown symbolically kissing him, and you have a shadow. Was it knocked into a different orbit some kind of fantasy parallel orbit? I don't know but what if it is not destroyed, but currently can't be seen for some explination. Got the obvious moon and the hidden one.

Though Dany's symbolism after the dragons are hatched goes from sun to moon and back. Not really looking for a very scientific answer, you know fantassy and science fiction are fine with me, just a sort of reasonable answer, given the magical world. Does that makes sense?

Good point about the destruction of a moon likely cause extinction level changes to the environment of Planetos. But maybe the comet doesn't destroy the second moon, or knock it into Planetos. Maybe it knocks it out of orbit to be cast adrift in space or swallowed up by the Sunetos. But the impact still causes a thousand times a thousand chunks to fall flaming through the atmosphere like so many dragons. And that bit about the sun and stars being blotted out could be related to a massive impact and weather being changed by a massive dump of dust and particles in the atmosphere, an effect known as an impact winter.

Of course, it's possible that there never was a second moon and that it only exists in the mythology of Westeros.

[Waters Gate]

Btw, on historical occurance's of lunar oddity's, more spificly cracking moons:

there is a story in history of the moom being split in 2 afaik accounted to the prophet muhammed. This likely involved a illusion in though, anyway more can be read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

[Avlonnic]

It certainly could. I was focusing on Targaryen (dragon) births and other dragon-related stuff. Maybe that's why I didn't find a pattern, maybe I need to look outside of Targ history.

I just thought with the references to wife, moon, procreation, etc., we need more than Targ to complete the 'SOIAF' motif. Perhaps Rhaegar encountered Lyanna and realized that something about her aligned with a crucial aspect of the prophecy he had read (her conception, birth, 'ice' background, a foretold meeting...) He learned the PTWP needed to be a warrior. Perhaps she was born in an auspicious phase of the ice dragon (astronomically speaking). Hope it helps.

[LmL]

Good point about the destruction of a moon likely cause extinction level changes to the environment of Planetos. But maybe the comet doesn't destroy the second moon, or knock it into Planetos. Maybe it knocks it out of orbit to be cast adrift in space or swallowed up by the Sunetos. But the impact still causes a thousand times a thousand chunks to fall flaming through the atmosphere like so many dragons. And that bit about the sun and stars being blotted out could be related to a massive impact and weather being changed by a massive dump of dust and particles in the atmosphere, an effect known as an impact winter.

Of course, it's possible that there never was a second moon and that it only exists in the mythology of Westeros.

I agree with the idea that the impact with the moon creating a million dragon meteor shower is more solid that the idea that the entire moon blew up. I am keeping an open mind to different scenarios, like the moon was impacted and set adrift, or that it is now dead, and somehow doesn't reflect the sunlight (all the language about drinking the suns fire) and so it can't be seen. I didn't want to crowd my essay with alternate possibilities, but there are several with varying degrees of evidence. I put forward what I thought was best supported by the text.

One possibility I was excited about but then discarded is some kind of hellacious solar flare. There a video of a sloe flare striking the moon, and it looks a lot like a burning sword. But flares can only do very tiny amounts of damage at worst, and that's when combined with a Coronal Mass Ejection... We are talking a few dump trucks worth of debris blown off the crust at most. Plus, the comet seems so important, and there is no connection between comets and solar flares. The video is great though, for a couple days I thought I had video footage of Lightbringer's forging:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/video/solar-flares-sandblast-moon-15104144

[LmL]

Btw, on historical occurance's of lunar oddity's, more spificly cracking moons:

there is a story in history of the moom being split in 2 afaik accounted to the prophet muhammed. This likely involved a illusion in though, anyway more can be read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

Awesome. I'll tear into that in a minute. Another great find Waters Gate. :)

[LmL]

I just thought with the references to wife, moon, procreation, etc., we need more than Targ to complete the 'SOIAF' motif. Perhaps Rhaegar encountered Lyanna and realized that something about her aligned with a crucial aspect of the prophecy he had read (her conception, birth, 'ice' background, a foretold meeting...) He learned the PTWP needed to be a warrior. Perhaps she was born in an auspicious phase of the ice dragon (astronomically speaking). Hope it helps.

We simply need to test the hypothesis by keeping it in mind as we go through the text.

[LmL]

Btw, on historical occurance's of lunar oddity's, more spificly cracking moons:

there is a story in history of the moom being split in 2 afaik accounted to the prophet muhammed. This likely involved a illusion in though, anyway more can be read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_of_the_moon

Having read it, it sounds like a fertility reference, or perhaps a reference to the acquisition of idea knowledge. If the moon can be an egg, it can give birth to a lot of things, enlightenment being one of them. That kind of fits the idea of the prophet Muhammed, it seems to me. As for the astronomy of it, I'm sure they are describing something they saw... I'm trying to think of what that could be.

[LmL]

Since we are beating around this bush, let me drop a little something something from the next section.

The Lion of Night may actually be a representation of how the sun would look through the cloud cover of a nuclear winter-type scenario. Following a tremendous volcanic eruption, or a comet impact of sufficient size, enough debris is thrown into the atmosphere that the skies can remain dark purplish-grey for many years. You can still see the sun at times, but barely - it would appear as a darkened sun, or a black sun. The "Lion of Night."

That's why the Lion of night is a lion - the sun is always the lion, never the moon. The lion of night means the sun of night - the night sun. The moon isn't a night sun, and is never associated with lions anywhere that I have seen. "Moon is wife of son, it is known." The Lion of night statue is a black stone statue of a man with a lion's head... Sounds creepy.

George sneaks in a little pot-shot at wealthy people when Arya sees the Lion of Night: "rich men preferred the Lion of Night..."

Because greedy people worship the devil. Heh. Nice one.

[Mychel_Redfort]

By the way, LmL, what do you think about the fact that the moon is always spotted in nighttime in the whole saga ? This goes as far as having moonrise mentioned as an hour in the night. It doesn't make much sense astronomically, so could it be linked to the magical event ?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Apologies. I should have quoted this:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

#16 Lucifer means Lightbringer

I really tried hard to find the pattern of the comet's recurrence... Not seeing anything regular happening every 16 or 17 years (the time since Aegon's birth and the last comet sighting), I tried combinations of numbers to add to 17, like 17 and 25, in case it was an irregular comet. I tried to see if anything lined up with Summerhall, the birth of "dragon" Targs, or other similar big events. I was not able to find a pattern. If the comet does trigger something each time it passes - most likely war, or something magical - then there should be a pattern. I just couldn't find it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1) "A comet was seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, which led his father Rhaegar Targaryen to believe that he was the prince that was promised. The comet was seen as "the bleeding star" of the prophecy."

2) Aegon was born a few months before the Rebellion so he was born in late 281 or early 282. Rhaegar left Dragonstone with 6 companions shortly after the turn of the new year (282).

3) Lyanna was born in either 266 or 267 as she was 16 when she died in 283. So conception window would approximate 265 - late 267.

As I understand the above, you are looking for an auspicious occurrence at an interval of 16-17 years since the comet was last spotted (Aegon's conception), so would Lyanna's birth or conception fit?

If Aegon was in 282 and Lyanna in 266 then the numbers fit. There is no mention of such a comet though, and surely people would have noticed.

16-17 years before that we don't know much, but another 16-17 after 250 (244) is the birth of Aerys Targaryen. Mad King.

Then another 16 years, 228 before was Daeron Targaryen (the gay one).

Then in 212 there is nothing, but another 16 years is the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Nothing in 180.

Jeyne Lothson, supposedly a Targaryen bastard of Aegon's is born in 164.

In 147 its Rhaena Targaryen (17 years after 164).

131 was the end of the Dance.

Lucerys Velaryon in 115.

No births in 99.

Aemma Arryn in 82.

Nothing in 63-64.

Nothing 47-48.

Nothing 30-31.

Nothing 15-16.

Yeah there is something in the beginning, but afterwards there isn't much to say. It sort of derails in 150. Although that was around the death of dragons, so maybe... Since the comet supposedly heralds the return of dragons it may be something to do with that.

[LmL]

By the way, LmL, what do you think about the fact that the moon is always spotted in nighttime in the whole saga ? This goes as far as having moonrise mentioned as an hour in the night. It doesn't make much sense astronomically, so could it be linked to the magical event ?

I never noticed that. That doesn't make any sense, does it? Probably just an oversight, although I'm very hesitant to use that to explain inconsistencies. For the moon to only appear at night, that would mean it somehow isn't orbiting earth, but just locked in one place on the opposite side of the sun... And that makes no sense whatsoever, right? I'll have to ponder that.

[LmL]

If Aegon was in 282 and Lyanna in 266 then the numbers fit. There is no mention of such a comet though, and surely people would have noticed.

Maybe that's what Lyanna told Rhaegar to make him fall for her, when Rhaegar found her while searching for the KOTLT.

"You know, I was born during a comet's passing...."

"Hot DAMN baby! I think I'm in love!"

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Maybe that's what Lyanna told Rhaegar to make him fall for her, when Rhaegar found her while searching for the KOTLT.

"You know, I was born during a comet's passing...."

"Hot DAMN baby! I think I'm in love!"

I've edited that post to add more births, but this is exactly how Rhaegar would think :laugh:

So not to detract from main convo, but perhaps after the return of dragons has something to do with the birth of people born in comet years (every 16-17 years) although we have no proof of the comet so perhaps it is only red when dragons return idk. Just a thought. Nothing much to do with this theory, so ignore.

[WeaselPie]

Since we are beating around this bush, let me drop a little something something from the next section.

The Lion of Night may actually be a representation of how the sun would look through the cloud cover of a nuclear winter-type scenario. Following a tremendous volcanic eruption, or a comet impact of sufficient size, enough debris is thrown into the atmosphere that the skies can remain dark purplish-grey for many years. You can still see the sun at times, but barely - it would appear as a darkened sun, or a black sun. The "Lion of Night."

That's why the Lion of night is a lion - the sun is always the lion, never the moon. The lion of night means the sun of night - the night sun. The moon isn't a night sun, and is never associated with lions anywhere that I have seen. "Moon is wife of son, it is known." The Lion of night statue is a black stone statue of a man with a lion's head... Sounds creepy.

George sneaks in a little pot-shot at wealthy people when Arya sees the Lion of Night: "rich men preferred the Lion of Night..."

Because greedy people worship the devil. Heh. Nice one.

Eclipse?

[Kingmonkey]

The one problem I come acrosss with a comet destroying a second moon, and I mean destorying it, is that the moon is in gravitational orbit of planetos. The debris would not bee little chunks like dragon eggs, your talking about a maybe 10 km comet blowing away moon the earth was believed to have been hit by a comet between 5-10 KM in diameter, it was an extincsion level event. When the remains of moon which is 200 - 400 km wide drops on your planet it's game over.

This is why shortly after that party at the end of Return of the Jedi, ALL THE EWOKS DIED.

I think the best approach to this is really just to say that if GRRM can have dragons that defy rational biomechanics in being able to fly, he doesn't have to worry too hard about the physics of exploding moons either.