The Hierarchy of the Others

[Voice]

Yeah, thanks for the nightmares VOTFM

Hey we gotta think big :devil:

So far we haven't witnessed horrors that would warrant the largest "man made" structure in the world, and the tradition of manning it for 8000 years.

I started to edit my previous post to say I think wights might be the very ice-web encased victims I was hinting at...

[Blazfemur]

Hey we gotta think big :devil:

So far we haven't witnessed horrors that would warrant the largest "man made" structure in the world, and the tradition of manning it for 8000 years.

I started to edit my previous post to say I think wights might be the very ice-web encased victims I was hinting at...

i was thinking the sentinels were

[Voice]

Ah, that would make the Wall their feeding place

[wolfmaid7]

I was thinking the other day it would be funny if all it took to bring down the Wall was a quick jab with obsidian. Seems like frozen fire would break the frozen spells woven into it. Still though, given that white walkers can walk upon snow, all they need are snowdrifts on either side (we already have them forming on the south face), and the Wall will become the Hill.

This doesn't seem so crazy as i see it.I for one think that there's enough evidence to support that it was a combination of spells that went into creating the Wall;including the Earth and ice magic.Obsidian if i had to translate into magical terms is the embodiment of the only two primodial/teutonic elements in existence "Ice and Fire" so it would probablu neutralize both.

[Voice]

This doesn't seem so crazy as i see it.I for one think that there's enough evidence to support that it was a combination of spells that went into creating the Wall;including the Earth and ice magic.Obsidian if i had to translate into magical terms is the embodiment of the only two primodial/teutonic elements in existence "Ice and Fire" so it would probablu neutralize both.

That was my thinking as well. Harkens back to Jon's flaming sword dream sort of...

[Voice]

Yeah same here, I thought White Walkers and Others were interchangeable and there was only a hierarchy of two (WW and Wights) but interesting to know it's three

Thanks for the thread

Spider Mounts might be weird on the show, ala Rabbit Sleigh in Hobbit films but it makes sense and spiders are more nimble than other animals and they would actually be quite great in Ice/Snow conditions and in the books

Good to have clarity

So Wights are killed by Fire

White Walkers are killed by Magical Dragonglass

And presumably Others can only killed by Sword of the Morning currently in the possession of the Daynes (Sword of the Morning, morning follows long night etc)

Looking forward to Winds of Winter

:cheers: Glad you're enjoying the thread. And yes, that is a very accurate summation. I would argue though that we do not yet know with complete certainty that Dawn is anything other than Dawn. It makes sense to me as LB, but that remains conjecture. We also do not yet know if dragonsteel was rare in the long night. It would make sense, to me anyway, if it were simply bronze. This would make the notion of the Age of Heroes make a little more sense, as the heroes were armed with bronze in those days before the Andal Invasion.

If dragonsteel were Valyrian steel, however, it would explain why the great ancestral Valyrian swords were so revered by the ancient houses, and why/how the Lords of those Houses were indeed the Protectors of their specific Realms: they could slay Others with their Valyrian swords. This would also tie in well with the idea of the blade never going dull (which presumably, is also true of white walkers' longswords), and the reverence displayed in passing the blades on to heirs.

Rest of the thread is making for interesting reading, the idea of that red comet not just being a sign but hitting Planetos and smashing the Wall is quite something

I got thinking, is NK still technically a member of the Night's Watch (same question goes for Bloodraven...)

Because I was curious is they could actually still use that Weir Door at the Night Fort

I think the red comet, as Old Nan said, meant dragons. Dragons are Fire. So the comet is the harbinger of Fire. The old powers are awakening, and I think we can guess who the harbingers of Ice are ;)

I quite like the idea of the red comet providing a light source during the Long Night 2.0. I think the red glow would provide a fantastical light for an iridescent Wall being scaled by crystalline Ice Spiders. I do hope that comes to pass...

[Voice]

The splitting of Ned's sword and the attempt to color it is a huge, huge clue about its nature. I plan to dissect that one pretty heavily. There are multiple anomalies - the fact that there are two layers; the fact that one does not take ANY coloring; the fact that the other takes the coloring, but "drinks the sun" from it and darkens it. All three of those things are unusual for Valyrian steel.

I'm very much looking forward to your analysis Lucifer. I get the feeling from your namesake that it is a matter near and dear to you.

I remember some time ago we had a great discussion on dragonsteel as an alias for Valyrian steel in Heresy. I was one of the proponents of the idea the black ripples do not take coloring because they are powdered obsidian, that has been mixed into the molten steel, or, that perhaps dragonflame is the one thing hot enough to actually melt "frozen fire." dragons=fire, dragonglass=frozen fire, dragonsteel=frozen fire + steel.

[Voice]

How would the Children fit into all of this?

I see the Others as being a shadow haunting the deeds of Men. And, specifically, the deeds of First Men.

For me, the children of the forest are innocent of involvement. That isn't a popular belief in my circles, but there it is. WeaselPie has suggested cotf are GRRM's play on the "noble savage" idea. And I quite agree.

I would say the "non-human" races have thus far seemed to be far more communally humanitarian, than Men have been in the series. One need only compare the "monster" Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun with Ramsay Snow-Bolton or Lord Frey, to see what I mean. Men seem to be the true monsters on Planetos.

I think the Others are a reckoning First Men brought upon themselves, and that the children were not involved in their creation.

[Voice]

Very interesting Op and thread.

Not sure if I want to see ice spiders in this saga, there is already enough fantastical elements for me - but, who knows.

Re using GRRMs letter as a reference point, I think without knowing what the redacted text read, it's still too elusive. The redacted text could have said something like - the only way the Starks can reclaim the North is during the Long Night, with the help of the Others who remember the Starks of old - we just don't know. Also, in the letter, GRRM uses others, not Others, so the whole capitalisation thing seems broken before it began - the Op may be more of a grammar Nazi than GRRM :D

Re canon, I don't believe it exists with franchises. As soon as ASoIaF was turned into the GoTs franchise, making statements or arguing about canon becomes pointless, as franchise matters more.

The Ice Spiders are coming my friend, sure as Winter itself...

Much of the redacted portion has been reconstructed by our friends on reddit. There isn't much to see there. And, as the letter itself states, it applies to the "second book" of the once-trilogy. As we're now 5/7ths of the way through the series, I think we've covered the redacted material already. At the time it was redacted, AFFC and ADWD were not yet released, and maybe even ASOS.

And indeed, I fully admit to being a grammar Nazi :commie:

Buuut, it is telling that once he explained his idea to his editor, his editor suggested capitalization of "the Others," while leaving "white walkers" and "wights" in lowercase....

Canon, not the franchise, is what matters to GRRM, as he has clearly stated that while the show has made changes to his material, and will continue to do so, book fans ought not feel spoiled by it, as the books are their own beast. Now obviously HBO feels differently, but GRRM is a writer first, and a producer second.

[Voice]

Personally I accepted the idea this was an Easter Egg, eg there is 12 figures in black behind the NK to refer to him being the 13th LC who wear black

As for this thread, not sure if there's any relevance he appears to be freshly clothed while the WW etc are generally wearing armour where all but the mineral elements are decayed, either they killed those people off or they were transformed from that ancient civilisation

Just out of curiosity, is there a possibility that the Others class are actually all female as part of a Matriarchical structure and then the White Walkers beneath them are a form of all-male 'Middle Class' who go about doing their bidding and Wights being the Zombie underclass

Sure seems like the show gave something away on that one, and the way the tried to mop up afterwards was even more suggestive. We have enough precedent in the books though, in my opinion, without the Oathkeeper easter egg.

I am a book fan more than a show fan, so I may be biased in that way, but we really can't trust the clothing differences in the show. What is more telling, to me, is that they made them wear what appeared to be black boiled leather as you might find on the Night's Watch in the days before steel plate came to Westeros. That is a strong hint as to the Last Hero = Night's King theory. Their location is quite suggestive as well, north and north and north, like the horror Bran glimpsed in his vision. So while it's all suggestive, it is also unreliable. Like:

Talisa Maegyr =/=Jeyne Westerling.

for all intents and purposes (and i already know im going to be getting a bunch of hate for it), they kidnap baby boys, is what we've witnessed. the book doesnt go into genders, however on the show, all Others are male. Combine witht he fact we see them take only males, ive theorized there's no such thing as a female Other. This INCLUDES the night's queen (i theorize the watch made her up to villainize 13th lord commander stark)

my little easter egg:

they're called First

Men

No hate from me. I like the idea. And as you say, if their practices are what we suspect, they are still remaining true to their vows. Perhaps their post is the heart of winter, and so they've remained where stationed.

I do like the idea of the Pale Woman existing, and not being a corpse of Barrowton, though. That is the only area we seem to differ. It seems unlikely to me Night's King would be exiled without good reason, and Old Nan's story isn't hard to believe. Just look at the inhuman practices Stannis has abided and seeded to ensure his victories.

Weirwoods are the roots of the Westerosi continent itself. They are the blood and bone of the land. I see the Others as the antibodies of Westeros. A natural and magical immune system response to the First Men who destroyed weirwoods in the Dawn Age. I think their purpose was bent by Night's King, and that he militarized them with his pale woman and her strange sorceries.

[Voice]

thats where i was getting. the blade was never lost. if he wielded it -- it left

with him. 13th lord commander stark, the night's king, the last hero, and also possibly bran the builder, all in one

Hey, no need for all these spoiler tags folks. We're all adults here, and these "spoilers" are all only conjecture at this point. I do agree the original Ice was the sword belonging to Night's King, and that he was also the founder of house stark :devil:

But it isn't hard to imagine he may have been disarmed when exiled, and that his sword was given to the Hero who exposed him. I'm thinking of the guy who "shed light" on the dark things he was up to at the Nightfort. Someone who brought his deeds into the light of Day(ne). And I can see how that sword was then re-named Dawn when it became the Sword of the Morning at the end of the long night. Note: I mark the end of the long night as being when Night's King was cast down.

[Blazfemur]

Hey, no need for all these spoiler tags folks. We're all adults here, and these "spoilers" are all only conjecture at this point. I do agree the original Ice was the sword belonging to Night's King, and that he was also the founder of house stark :devil:

But it isn't hard to imagine he may have been disarmed when exiled, and that his sword was given to the Hero who exposed him. I'm thinking of the guy who "shed light" on the dark things he was up to at the Nightfort. Someone who brought his deeds into the light of Day(ne). And I can see how that sword was then re-named Dawn when it became the Sword of the Morning at the end of the long night. Note: I mark the end of the long night as being when Night's King was cast down.

given to the hero and then lost, could be one, or it was never lost but taken when tnk retreated so it was "lost" to normal society with him.

oooh, Ice and Dawn being a single blade... hmm.. was ancestral Ice also a greatsword? it might appear an amateur question at first but, think about it we dont know. that would mean Ice, was forged from a fallen star as well.

me personally, i want to discount it only because i want to see a wielder of dawn face the current wielder of Ice (which WONT happen).

there's nothing in the text to discount the possibility, admittedly, but i just so want Ice to be an Other Blade, the name fits, it fits with the House, and his majesty would need a fitting blade. If Ice was Dawn, i don't think theyd call it 'lost,' persay. but throught heir pov, i guess they may call it lost if they werent aware. wouldnt house stark have a vendetta against house dayne then? we know of the rivalry based on the toj, but there was always respect. id think there'd be some, disdain, if the dayne's recollected the ancestral stark blade and desecrated it by calling it their own.

[Voice]

given to the hero and then lost, could be one, or it was never lost but taken when tnk retreated so it was "lost" to normal society with him.

oooh, Ice and Dawn being a single blade... hmm.. was ancestral Ice also a greatsword? it might appear an amateur question at first but, think about it we dont know. that would mean Ice, was forged from a fallen star as well.

me personally, i want to discount it only because i want to see a wielder of dawn face the current wielder of Ice (which WONT happen).

there's nothing in the text to discount the possibility, admittedly, but i just so want Ice to be an Other Blade, the name fits, it fits with the House, and his majesty would need a fitting blade. If Ice was Dawn, i don't think theyd call it 'lost,' persay. but throught heir pov, i guess they may call it lost if they werent aware. wouldnt house stark have a vendetta against house dayne then? we know of the rivalry based on the toj, but there was always respect. id think there'd be some, disdain, if the dayne's recollected the ancestral stark blade and desecrated it by calling it their own.

But they would call it lost. The Builder of their House lost it to the Hero of the Morning (who's House goes back 10k years). Ice vs Dawn would be epic, but doesn't sound very GRRM-like.

I would think that House Stark, in knowing the disgrace NK brought upon their name, would behave in an extremely honorable and almost subservient way toward House Dayne. It would also explain why honorable ole Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. The books are written in such a way as to make us view House Stark with reverence and honor. Well, that's how Ned saw Arthur Dayne. House Dayne may well have humbled House Stark when they needed it most back at the Nightfort.

This would also explain why Ned hoped to marry Ashara. Poor guy got chained to Cat by Jon Arryn. I'd be pissed ;)

[Blazfemur]

But they would call it lost. The Builder of their House lost it to the Hero of the Morning (who's House goes back 10k years). Ice vs Dawn would be epic, but doesn't sound very GRRM-like.

I would think that House Stark, in knowing the disgrace NK brought upon their name, would behave in an extremely honorable and almost subservient way toward House Dayne. It would also explain why honorable ole Ned returned Dawn to Starfall. The books are written in such a way as to make us view House Stark with reverence and honor. Well, that's how Ned saw Arthur Dayne. House Dayne may well have humbled House Stark when they needed it most back at the Nightfort.

This would also explain why Ned hoped to marry Ashara. Poor guy got chained to Cat by Jon Arryn. I'd be pissed ;)

Let's call it Ice for a moment.

Arthur, wielding Ice, loses to Ned. Ned, as Ice back in his possession, but in disgrace of his ancestors, gracefully bows and gives his ancestral blade back to Starfall (also in part repentence for the life he just had to take, almost as a means of redemption, sacrifice).

Kinda like that?

[Blazfemur]

as an outsider i'd see Ned as a traitor to his own house, and his blood, and all the first men that fought and died against the andals, to be honest. I do acknowledge the humility, of bowing before the better man and admitting defeat, but thats like taking reparations for something someone did aeons ago.

i would have kept the blade

[Voice]

Let's call it Ice for a moment.

Arthur, wielding Ice, loses to Ned. Ned, as Ice back in his possession, but in disgrace of his ancestors, gracefully bows and gives his ancestral blade back to Starfall (also in part repentence for the life he just had to take, almost as a means of redemption, sacrifice).

Kinda like that?

Indeed. And by then he already bore the new Valyrian Ice, which is a constant reminder that a winter once came, and within it, a night that lasted a generation, and within that night, a Stark was exiled in true disgrace...or anti-grace...or to reign the next night...

[Voice]

as an outsider i'd see Ned as a traitor to his own house, and his blood, and all the first men that fought and died against the andals, to be honest. I do acknowledge the humility, of bowing before the better man and admitting defeat, but thats like taking reparations for something someone did aeons ago.

i would have kept the blade

Perhaps he was tempted to. I would say perhaps he did! LOL, but, GRRM confirmed Dawn is in Starfall waiting for the next sword of the morning.

"Winter is coming," sound like the gloomy, foreboding words of a House that once admitted defeat.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Yeah, thanks for the nightmares VOTFM

Spending too much time in this thread contemplating all these perverse forms of magic and what it does to people makes me feel a little squeamish too lol

Fascinating and creepy thread at the same time

Has been great food for thought though

[Blazfemur]

Indeed. And by then he already bore the new Valyrian Ice, which is a constant reminder that a winter once came, and within it, a night that lasted a generation, and within that night, a Stark was exiled in true disgrace...or anti-grace...or to reign the next night...

Perhaps he was tempted to. I would say perhaps he did! LOL, but, GRRM confirmed Dawn is in Starfall waiting for the next sword of the morning.

"Winter is coming," sound like the gloomy, foreboding words of a House that once admitted defeat.

It sounds legit like an episode of "That's So Ned," actually, and if i didnt want to see his majesty wield Ice so badly id say this is the exact way it would be written. Shoul dbe written, as per Ned's character. I love it.

But a thousand's year old king needs a blade worthy of sweeping it's nocturnal arc across the Wall and Westeros. I'm rooting for Ice, not Dawn :P

[Voice]

It sounds legit like an episode of "That's So Ned," actually, and if i didnt want to see his majesty wield Ice so badly id say this is the exact way it would be written. Shoul dbe written, as per Ned's character. I love it.

But a thousand's year old king needs a blade worthy of sweeping it's nocturnal arc across the Wall and Westeros. I'm rooting for Ice, not Dawn :P

I'd say he feels the same way Blaz. In fact, I think he wants it back :devil: