The Hierarchy of the Others

[Voice]

I wouldnt say they aren't i disagree with you there.Only because i believe who you call Ancient Others is infact a Winter Greenseer. i would then characterize "the act of raising the dead" as un-natural and anyone with certain magical abilities can do it .It in itself is an abomination and the breaking of a fundamental law of nature.

If you recall Leaf's statement to Bran:

Winterfell,” Bran whispered.

His father looked up. “Who’s there?” he asked, turning … … and Bran, frightened, pulled away............ “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy.Do not seek to call him back from death

Indicating that Bran has this power as well,he can call one back from death. If as i believe the true hand behind the rising is a Greenseer,he is not unatural what he is doing is and in this case i'm thinking your Ancent Others and my Greenseers are the same.It's just a matter of the understanding who the Others are that has been lost.As i've said i think GRRM has all the players in the story.Be they past and forgotten is coming full circle.

I think if Leaf were warning Bran to be careful, because he had the power to make the dead rise, she would have spoken a bit more forcefully. I don't think that statement means much more than it's a waste of time to seek to call him back from death. I know you disagree with that, but that's my take on it.

We've no precedent to suggest greenseers do anything but see the past, let alone awaken the dead.

[wolfmaid7]

"No," isn't forceful enough? Really?

We kind of do?

Can they enthrall anything? Including humans?

There you go.

[Voice]

If you don't want a kid to pull the dog's ears, simply telling him don't do it is unlikely to stop him.

For me, it is First Men, not the cotf, who brought about the Others.

Now, were those First Men dabbling in magics the cotf possess? Without a doubt! That, after all, is the story of the Last Hero :devil:

[A horsefaced girl]

I think it there is room to argue that Thoros is paying a blood debt to wake Dondarrion, when we first meet him he is described as a fat Red priest that liked to drink with the King and fight in the melee. Next we see him he is much thinner but his magic is stronger, he can light swords with blood, read the flames, and best of all raise the dead. Finally by the time we see Thoros in AFFC Brienne simply describes him as the old gray man, he can no longer read the flames and he just seems to be filled with hopelessness.

Also the Red priests seem to feel as you do about the Other. I have no doubt that they believe they are fighting to stop the others from winning the war to bring the never ending winter. They are basically the only ones, and people think they are crazy zealots for it. People don't like Melisandra because she burns people and is willing to kill children, she believes she is fighting to save the world.

[Voice]

I think it there is room to argue that Thoros is paying a blood debt to wake Dondarrion, when we first meet him he is described as a fat Red priest that liked to drink with the King and fight in the melee. Next we see him he is much thinner but his magic is stronger, he can light swords with blood, read the flames, and best of all raise the dead. Finally by the time we see Thoros in AFFC Brienne simply describes him as the old gray man, he can no longer read the flames and he just seems to be filled with hopelessness.

Hmm, sounds like you're making a lot of assumptions...Not that I'm opposed to reading between the lines of course :)

My main problem with such assumptions are according to Thoros himself, it happened quite accidentally. No sacrifice was given.

Also the Red priests seem to feel as you do about the Other. I have no doubt that they believe they are fighting to stop the others from winning the war to bring the never ending winter. They are basically the only ones, and people think they are crazy zealots for it. People don't like Melisandra because she burns people and is willing to kill children, she believes she is fighting to save the world.

Ah, see. You said it yourself... What else in these books seem willing to kill the innocent and use children as sacrifices?

If Mel got everything she wanted, we'd only be replacing one evil for another. And, say goodbye to the Old Gods...

It was intolerant people like her that started all the trouble in the first place, burning and killing the weirwoods.

[Voice]

Hey...wait a minute...

On Fridays I go riding and it wipes me out. I'm still tired from yesterday.

Would that be your Silver? Drogon?

Or has your Ice Spider come early? ;)

[A horsefaced girl]

Ah, see. You said it yourself... What else in these books seem willing to kill the innocent and use children as sacrifices?

If Mel got everything she wanted, we'd only be replacing one evil for another. And, say goodbye to the Old Gods...

It was intolerant people like her that started all the trouble in the first place, burning and killing the weirwoods.

Jaimie was willing to kill an innocent child "for love".

[A horsefaced girl]

"Maggy" was a blood mage, a "maegi." Theirs is a different tradition, in my opinion.

But I do agree that the trees are how the First Men, and the cotf before them, kept records.

oops, I was confusing Maggy the Frog with the Ghost of High Heart.

[Voice]

oops, I was confusing Maggy the Frog with the Ghost of High Heart.

Oh haha no worries

[Voice]

Jaimie was willing to kill an innocent child "for love".

Indeed. Love is Fire. And one need only look at Queen Selyse to see how fervently the cult of R'llhor can manipulate one's "love."

In my mind, a weirwood is not only Bone and Blood, but Ice and Fire. And trees, generally speaking, are naturally a bridge between Earth and Air. I see the Old Gods as encompassing the natural world, and magic of nature. Fire and Ice are both a part of nature. I see R'llhorism as tangential to the central story, encompassing merely shadow, and shadow-based magic.

[LmL]

Indeed. Love is Fire. And one need only look at Queen Selyse to see how fervently the cult of R'llhor can manipulate one's "love."

In my mind, a weirwood is not only Bone and Blood, but Ice and Fire. And trees, generally speaking, are naturally a bridge between Earth and Air. I see the Old Gods as encompassing the natural world, and magic of nature. Fire and Ice are both a part of nature. I see R'llhorism as tangential to the central story, encompassing merely shadow, and shadow-based magic.

I'm curious, do you think "shadow magic" is completely separate from fire magic, or could it perhaps a twisted form of it?

[Voice]

I'm curious, do you think "shadow magic" is completely separate from fire magic, or could it perhaps a twisted form of it?

The R'llhorists certainly believe they are following the power of Fire, but they are living in the shadows of it, imo. This came up not too long ago in Heresy as well. I think that rather than growing from the same tree as Ice or Fire, the magic of the red priests is a stunted deformed tree growing in its shadow. More of an invasive weed than a true root of knowledge. I see them utterly and completely as a cult born of Asshai. While they've learned the tongue, they are not Valyrian, nor do they claim to be. They speak of Dragons, and Dawn and Fire, but we've seen nothing as genuine as Dragons or Dawn or Fire come from them. All they have to offer is deception.

[A horsefaced girl]

The R'llhorists certainly believe they are following the power of Fire, but they are living in the shadows of it, imo. This came up not too long ago in Heresy as well. I think that rather than growing from the same tree as Ice or Fire, the magic of the red priests is a stunted deformed tree growing in its shadow. More of an invasive weed than a true root of knowledge. I see them utterly and completely as a cult born of Asshai. While they've learned the tongue, they are not Valyrian, nor do they claim to be. They speak of Dragons, and Dawn and Fire, but we've seen nothing as genuine as Dragons or Dawn or Fire come from them. All they have to offer is deception.

I think its easier to understand shadowbinders if you think of them more as "shade"binders. If a living person and their soul is their flame, then their ghost or shade is their shadow. When Azor Ahai thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa's living heart and it came out burning, that is shadowbinging. I think it could be considerd fire magic if you think a persons soul and essence is a fire.

here is the story as told by Salladhor Saan,

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred flames, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast and know that I love you best of all that is in this world'. She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel."

Shadow binging explains who you can light glass candles or swords. When Thoros shadow binds Beric he is just returning his ghost to his body.

I don't think the Others can shadowbind the wights I think they are skin walking them.

[Voice]

I think its easier to understand shadowbinders if you think of them more as "shade"binders. If a living person and their soul is their flame, then their ghost or shade is their shadow. When Azor Ahai thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa's living heart and it came out burning, that is shadowbinging. I think it could be considerd fire magic if you think a persons soul and essence is a fire.

here is the story as told by Salladhor Saan,

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred flames, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast and know that I love you best of all that is in this world'. She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel."

Shadow binging explains who you can light glass candles or swords. When Thoros shadow binds Beric he is just returning his ghost to his body.

I view them much differently. We saw "shadowbinding" when Mel gave birth to the shadow that killed Renly. Thoros bound no shadows. As he attests, he did nothing at all differently when he kissed Beric. His reawakening was a complete mystery to Thoros, who merely accepted it as a gift.

The tale of Azor Ahai sounds like a borrowing and retelling of the tale of the Last Hero. He fought the Others in Westeros. Not Essos. So I do not put much credence in their version personally.

I don't think the Others can shadowbind the wights I think they are skin walking them.

Agreed :) and I much prefer that terminology "skin walking" rather than "skinchanging," as the latter applies to living familiars.

[LmL]

I think its easier to understand shadowbinders if you think of them more as "shade"binders. If a living person and their soul is their flame, then their ghost or shade is their shadow. When Azor Ahai thrust his sword through Nissa Nissa's living heart and it came out burning, that is shadowbinging. I think it could be considerd fire magic if you think a persons soul and essence is a fire.

here is the story as told by Salladhor Saan,

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred flames, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast and know that I love you best of all that is in this world'. She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel."

Shadow binging explains who you can light glass candles or swords. When Thoros shadow binds Beric he is just returning his ghost to his body.

I don't think the Others can shadowbind the wights I think they are skin walking them.

Very interesting train of thought there. One question how does shadow binding, as you see it, explain the lighting of candles or swords? I follow you on the idea of binding a shade back to its body, which is most likely what is needed with Jon Snow, and what was unsuccessfully done with Drogo, but I didn't get the lighting things on fire part.

[Voice]

Good question, I was wondering the same. While there may be a connection...it should be noted that Glass Candles appear to be a Valyrian artifact, rather than Asshai'i.

[A horsefaced girl]

The blood, and in Stannis's case his seed, have bits of the persons soul, spirit, life force, memories (however you want to call it) thats what gives blood power. I think other things will make some blood more powerful, like being kings blood, or love. If you bind that blood to the candle or sword it will burn with the blood givers spirt or (shadow).

The shadow baby wasn't an actually shadow it was a part of Stannis's soul. Thats why he was growing weak.

I disagree with Voice of the First Men that Thoros paid nothing to bring back Beric. Its very subtly because every time you see him its through a different POV, but you see that he gets thinner and older and now he can't read the flames as he was. Also him saying he didn't know what he was doing affirms two things, he is untrained and magic is returning to the world, since even poor students of the magic can wield it.

I see R'hllor having a lot in common with The Nights Watch, different orders pledged to waiting and preparing to fight in the next long night and after 8000 years they are mere (shadows of what they are meant to be).

I imagine that this discussion will go on forever even after the books are finished, because magic is mysterious and George writes it that way. But isn't it so fun to think about and discuss.

[Durran Durrandon]

Jaimie was willing to kill an innocent child "for love".

Jaime killed an innocent child to save his life, his sister-lover's life and the lives of his three children. Those aren't just my words, those were Ned's thoughts and Martin's words. Sorry, I know this is off topic.

[Voice]

It's all good. And related, albeit in a round and round about way ;)

[Voice]

The blood, and in Stannis's case his seed, have bits of the persons soul, spirit, life force, memories (however you want to call it) thats what gives blood power. I think other things will make some blood more powerful, like being kings blood, or love. If you bind that blood to the candle or sword it will burn with the blood givers spirt or (shadow).

Very interesting take on these things :cheers:

I've never considered blood being offered to a glass candle to make it burn, but that makes a ton of sense.

The shadow baby wasn't an actually shadow it was a part of Stannis's soul. Thats why he was growing weak.

I agree he's weakened by the process, but that may be due to his delving in dark magics...

I disagree with Voice of the First Men that Thoros paid nothing to bring back Beric. Its very subtly because every time you see him its through a different POV, but you see that he gets thinner and older and now he can't read the flames as he was. Also him saying he didn't know what he was doing affirms two things, he is untrained and magic is returning to the world, since even poor students of the magic can wield it.

It isn't my opinion alone, Thoros shares it. And while Beric is clearly less than he was before with each resurrection, there is still no blood sacrifice being paid for his resurrections. This is also contradictory, because if one's own death can pay for one's own resurrection, why aren't people all over Westeros being resurrected? And, why would anyone else in the Brotherhood without Banners ever die again? Seems like Thoros would be resurrecting a lot more people than just one.

I see R'hllor having a lot in common with The Nights Watch, different orders pledged to waiting and preparing to fight in the next long night and after 8000 years they are mere (shadows of what they are meant to be).

Sure... Except the Night's Watch doesn't toss innocent people into a raging inferno, or squirt shadow assassins from their members. Though, Tormund may claim the ability ;)

I imagine that this discussion will go on forever even after the books are finished, because magic is mysterious and George writes it that way. But isn't it so fun to think about and discuss.

Very well may. And I couldn't agree more that he purposefully writes these things in a subversive way.