The Hierarchy of the Others

[Blazfemur]

I'd say he feels the same way Blaz. In fact, I think he wants it back :devil:

MOTIVATION dude i love it!

motivation crossed my mind, too:

1) If TNQ did exist (i never discount the idea), ive theorized she was buried in winterfell's crypts, or who knows, maybe still alive and imprisoned, in there. TNK would seek to release her/make that his final resting place by her side, right? at this point i doubt he wants westeros or the iron throne. such might attribute to the "rotting" of their weirwood that catelyn reflects, that all others she's seen thrived where there's is deteriorating. also, the unnatural warmth (while still may be hot springs), perhaps she absorbs the cold to keep her alive, thus making the surrounding atmosphere warm. perhaps she's getting stronger, now that there isnt a stark in winterfell (oncoming snowstorm with bolton/stannis)

or

2) since he's a stark (in my eyes), his rightful resting place is winterfell, and winterfell's crypts. that wall is blocking him from getting there.

i dont hate his motivation retaking his sword though. you realize this is all new to me, but i think it's great stuff. reclaiming Ice is a new direction

in essence, he's yet to:

-retake the wall (perhaps it was their rightful establishment)

-retake Winterfell, the stark ancestral home (that possibly he even built and founded)

-retake the stark ancestral blade (niiiice.. nice touch)

i just dont like that house dayne's pride and joy, was a recovered trophy from another fallen house. wouldnt they be too honorable for that?

[LmL]

I'm very much looking forward to your analysis Lucifer. I get the feeling from your namesake that it is a matter near and dear to you.

I remember some time ago we had a great discussion on dragonsteel as an alias for Valyrian steel in Heresy. I was one of the proponents of the idea the black ripples do not take coloring because they are powdered obsidian, that has been mixed into the molten steel, or, that perhaps dragonflame is the one thing hot enough to actually melt "frozen fire." dragons=fire, dragonglass=frozen fire, dragonsteel=frozen fire + steel.

This is part of my conclusion, yes. The layer which does not take any color is not steel at all - Tobho is an expert at coloring V steel. This layer cannot be steel... Tobho'so coloring technique is for V steel, and this layer is unaffected by it whatsoever. I suspect it is the obsidian layer. All of Radio Westeros' arguments (some of which came from the board of course) about why obsidian should be part of dragonsteel make sense to me, so that's the black layer.

So the steel layer - it's unusual too. That's the sun-drinking layer, which keeps darkening the color no matter how many spells and attempts Tobho makes. I think this is because the steel layer has something added to it, something which darkens it and imbues it with a sun-drinking quality. Hmm. What could it be?

[Ghosts Lunch]

Love the lost swords talk

Even more intriguing when one throws Lannister sword Brightroar which is "lost" in Old Valyria into the mix and makes one consider the Stark/Lannister issues with much more depth

Ice (original?)

Dawn (Lightbringer?)

Brightroar (light + sound vibration?)

Horn of Joramun (sound vibration)

Might have more to come, eg these are the swords of the next super battle/arc belonging to the main protagonists in some way. Can throw in Horn of Joramun as an equally important magical deviceHave to think it all through though

People have been talking about the intricacies of the makeup of the swords and the folds and the colouring, I would be intrigued to know if Brightflame has some properties weaved into it that affected the way it sounded but there have been no indications

This of course makes us focus on Oathkeeper, this seems to at first glance about a dis-honoured Lannister using a sword forged out of the Stark sword to give to Brienne of Tarth to find/rescue the Stark daughters and return them to safety in honour of an oath given to Lady Stark etc etc. The other one being Widows Wail given to Joffrey who was once betrothed to Sansa etc etc

There's also Widows Wail, belonging to the cadet Baratheon/Lannister branch. Of course it is ironic being named for Joffrey because there was no widows wail in the case of Cersei and Robert...Would be quite fitting then if this ends up being the Cersei lady of the Rock House Lannister sword

Looked at from the longer perspective and the idea of NK and dishonoured House Stark, I think the ancient wielders of Brightroar come into it, whether it was the Lanns or the Casterly's or whoever. Big point is I don't think the story of what happened is as simple as Others=bad, Hero defeats them etc etc, there was some kind of pact made and it was probably more a diplomatic arrangement I suspect

Long story short I wouldn't be surprised if in those ancient times Brightroar wielder was instrumental in any post Long Night Stark redemption event, and we have to consider Lannister symbol of Lion plus their words "Hear me Roar" a bit more closely in conjunction with Starks "Winter is coming" as grim and foreboding etc

My ideas delves into the fact that if Dawn is the Light element, Brightroar is the light + vibrational element (sound vibration).

This goes into the issues raised in the song thread about musical frequencies etc but also mythology if you like,. this might sound odd but the mythology behind elements of Narnia for example and the use of a Lion as a main protagonist and how it ties in with singing as the vibration of creation...

In this case it would be meaningful in terms of the vibration of the Dawn after a Long Night. We have already seen sound vibration is as important a cue as light/dark is as cues in these books, eg song of Ice and Fire, we see multiple frequencies horn blasts instead of light signals and Morse code (Maritime institutions) by the Nights Watch and of course the Horn of Joramun is a sound vibrational device and not a light device and is given similar reverence as "Lightbringer". Horn of Joramun could have more to it than just a plot device about bringing down the Wall, fascinating to consider I reckon it's in Winterfell crypts

Brightroar may actually be an equivalent for the Horn of Joramum, eg both are "lost", in one case in the Ice regions and in another the Fire

Given I think Dany relates to House Targaryen as a whole and not just the relatively short-term rule of Westeros (Aegon/Viserys arc delves into that), I reckon she will resurrect Valyria and Brightroar will be found during that time

Made all the more intriguing by the fact we don't know House Dayne words (at least I don't) and the House Targaryen words "Fire and Blood", eg Fire and Blood magic and there is also the Roar of Dragons etc etc

Anyway some can be considered off-topic

[Voice]

I think this is because the steel layer has something added to it, something which darkens it and imbues it with a sun-drinking quality. Hmm. What could it be?

Ah the oily black stone (ore)? Or are you thinking "drink the sun" like "drinking blood"...bloodstone...?

[LmL]

Ah the oily black stone (ore)?

I just typed a response to this paragraph and deleted it because I'm letting part 3 out of the bag. I think I'm going on board hiatus until it is finished. :) It's really part of part 2, I just had to break it up.

[Voice]

MOTIVATION dude i love it!

snip

i just dont like that house dayne's pride and joy, was a recovered trophy from another fallen house. wouldnt they be too honorable for that?

Haha! Me too, it's all about motivation.

As far as House Dayne's pride and joy, it was a recovered trophy from the orgin of their own House, as they humbled a fledgling other House...

House Stark was not yet House Stark when the long night began, in my mind anyway LOL....it's been debated in Heresy quite a bit... In my mind, Brandon, son of the Bloody Blade, starts building a Wall, consolidating Men into his fraternal Watch, and initiates what we now know as House Stark. As he's working on his public works project, he glimpses the pale woman.

He continues working on the Wall by day, founding the Watch and the Wall to man it. At the same time, he's got stars in his eyes for that Pale Woman...by night he beds her at his home away from home, the Nightfort, and makes offerings to placate the Others. By day, he made concessions to placate his brothers of the Night's Watch.

It likely all began with quite normal, basic, human intentions (like Stannis). It makes sense that it would take less than honorable practices to placate the Others, who seek to annihilate everything we call "life."

By day, Old Nan tells us, he was a man like any other. You could say he was distinctly human. Distinctly First Man. A stark human. Starkly, a First Man... in contrast to the inhuman Others. He was a sworn brother, the first if Brandon, but by any account, he was a brother of the Night's Watch. He was a black brother by day. By night, he lay with the pale woman.

Thus, he became the grey direwolf on the Wall, a grey direwolf on a field of white. After 13 years, he was exiled, forced to flee. A grey direwolf, running across an ice-white field. And, then, they called him Stark.

Perhaps he was disarmed before he fled. And perhaps his sword was as pale as milkglass, looking like no Valyrian blade, yet sharing all of the properties, being incredibly strong and sharp.

That sword would be a living testament to the man who brought the morning light of dawn to the Nightfort, perhaps ending the long night. And, it would be a living testament to the disgrace of that grey wolf, fleeing across the ice white field.

[Mother of Dragons]

I'm tired right now, so I'll read more commentary later, but to the rabbit-hobbit and ice spider comparison: not quite. The rabbit sled was not in the book, just the movie. The ice spiders are canon (yikes!)

I finished Bran I reread in Dance, and noticed that Meera points out he's been taking them in circles and not advancing anywhere. Maybe he's not so good as we think him to be, and will tie in this heirarchy somehow. He got them to their destination with food, which seems helpful, but Jojen points out if they turn back they're dead. So I think he was trying to weaken them or their resolve for who/whatever he's working for.

I guess he's hard to classify, but I beleve he is connected to the Others somehow. He's not the NK because his eyes are black vs blue.

[Voice]

Love the lost swords talk

snip

Anyway some can be considered off-topic

As you demonstrate, all is related, interconnected, and nothing is off topic. I like the sound vibration element. Haven't really considered that angle before, myself. But that casts the Song of Ice and Fire in another light....or should I say 'note'?

I've often suggested that the Song is a battle, like the "song of swords in the practice yard." But I like the idea of sound frequencies, almost reminds me of the Harmonic Convergence in The Legend of Korra.

[Voice]

I just typed a response to this paragraph and deleted it because I'm letting part 3 out of the bag. I think I'm going on board hiatus until it is finished. :) It's really part of part 2, I just had to break it up.

LOL totally understand. I have a nice little theory in the works I think folks might like as to the Origin of Others....but it's still in the incubator.

To MoD's point about post-length...maybe each part should be broken up into sub-parts. This one could be Part 2.1 ;)

[Voice]

I'm tired right now, so I'll read more commentary later, but to the rabbit-hobbit and ice spider comparison: not quite. The rabbit sled was not in the book, just the movie. The ice spiders are canon (yikes!)

I finished Bran I reread in Dance, and noticed that Meera points out he's been taking them in circles and not advancing anywhere. Maybe he's not so good as we think him to be, and will tie in this heirarchy somehow. He got them to their destination with food, which seems helpful, but Jojen points out if they turn back they're dead. So I think he was trying to weaken them or their resolve for who/whatever he's working for.

I guess he's hard to classify, but I beleve he is connected to the Others somehow. He's not the NK because his eyes are black vs blue.

Yeah, Coldhands seems to be a special case. At least, until we see other brothers like him.

I do not see him as connected to the Others, but rather, a brother that kept his vows during some magical event, and who's life was preserved. He seems quite loyal to the Watch, even if he's not able to attend meetings anymore ;)

His eye color, to me, is the very proof that he's not connected to the Others. Since that's been the one unifying trait of all Other-kind: their eyes burning like blue stars.

[Voice]

Spending too much time in this thread contemplating all these perverse forms of magic and what it does to people makes me feel a little squeamish too lol

Fascinating and creepy thread at the same time

Has been great food for thought though

LOL yeah... gotta think cold to catch the cold. It takes more than incredibly flammable zombies and cold dudes that melt as soon as you shoot them with an obsidian-tipped arrow to make you build the Wall, and man it for 8000 years, while swearing off women and honors.

Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander.

Something was watching them...all day! Something...Cold and implacable...that loved him not. Let me leave everyone with a bedtime story, words by GRRM, lovingly arranged by me, from my heart to yours :devil:

Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound

a thousand hearts with a single beat

from the icy wastes beyond the Wall

an edge to this darkness

comes from the north

half-forgotten demons out of legend

the inhuman others

raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn

and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter

to extinguish everything that we would call "life"

cold and implacable

foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders

the dead men reached the top of the Wall

Good night :)

[A horsefaced girl]

I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe someone has already suggested this or contradicted it, if so sorry.

I've always thought the walking dead wights were being skin changed or ridden kinda how Bran does with Hodor or how the Three Eyed Crow does with all the ravens. It's the same kind of magic but with the dead.

Trees are often used as a symbol for life and in this story trees are Gods and can be used to see into the past or future by TCOTF or people with the magic. Bran and the TEC are fulfilling that role for one side.

Does anyone else wonder if there is a "winter" version of the greenseers sitting in an ice throne behind that curtain of light looking out through all the star blue eyes of the wights? Ive been suspicious of something like this since the two wights attacked LC Mormont, they seemed less like zombies hungry for brains and more like thralls being controlled by an intelligent force. Sadly this is all speculation, I have no proof. Can't wait for TWOW.

[wolfmaid7]

I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe someone has already suggested this or contradicted it, if so sorry.

I've always thought the walking dead wights were being skin changed or ridden kinda how Bran does with Hodor or how the Three Eyed Crow does with all the ravens. It's the same kind of magic but with the dead.

Trees are often used as a symbol for life and in this story trees are Gods and can be used to see into the past or future by TCOTF or people with the magic. Bran and the TEC are fulfilling that role for one side.

Does anyone else wonder if there is a "winter" version of the greenseers sitting in an ice throne behind that curtain of light looking out through all the star blue eyes of the wights? Ive been suspicious of something like this since the two wights attacked LC Mormont, they seemed less like zombies hungry for brains and more like thralls being controlled by an intelligent force. Sadly this is all speculation, I have no proof. Can't wait for TWOW.

I actually have this as a full pledge theory its in my signature. The Cold the Wights and the Wight Walker. I think there is a Winter Greenseer and he is the one that is raising the Wights and driving them.

Its Skinchanging magic and abilities just with the dead.

[Voice]

I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe someone has already suggested this or contradicted it, if so sorry.

I've always thought the walking dead wights were being skin changed or ridden kinda how Bran does with Hodor or how the Three Eyed Crow does with all the ravens. It's the same kind of magic but with the dead.

Trees are often used as a symbol for life and in this story trees are Gods and can be used to see into the past or future by TCOTF or people with the magic. Bran and the TEC are fulfilling that role for one side.

Does anyone else wonder if there is a "winter" version of the greenseers sitting in an ice throne behind that curtain of light looking out through all the star blue eyes of the wights? Ive been suspicious of something like this since the two wights attacked LC Mormont, they seemed less like zombies hungry for brains and more like thralls being controlled by an intelligent force. Sadly this is all speculation, I have no proof. Can't wait for TWOW.

Skinchanged might not be the best word to describe the relationship, in my opinion, but given the precedents we have in text, that is perhaps analogous for what is happening to them....

In my mind, wights are being controlled by a far away consciousness. For wolfmaid, that consciousness is the GS controlling the cold winds. For me, it is simply Ancient Others (or perhaps Night's King).

We've never seen anyone "skinchange" into a carcass. Skinchanging is between a skinchanger and his intimately connected beast. The Starks and their direwolves are the most prominent examples. Bran and Hodor are a somewhat sad example, and as we know, it's even an abomination to some.

Obviously, wights are made from dead people that could not possibly share an intimate relationship with who or what ever is controlling them. They are just flesh, put to sinister use. I think they exhibit a hive-mind mentality, which is something GRRM has played with before (though not, so far as we know, in ASOIAF). These cold, dead, wights seem animated from afar, unable to speak, unable to think or fear, and move about in a very clumsy, lumbering fashion. I think they are remotely and collectively controlled by Ancient Others, or, perhaps the man who militarized them, Night's King.

So, therefore, it isn't the same kind of magic. Like Melisandre of Asshai, white walkers are willing to use unwilling sacrifices as a means to their ends. While Bran forces his will upon Hodor, and it is very wrong imo, Hodor does relent, and allow Bran to use his body. It's wrong, don't get me wrong, but Hodor was not as strong as Thistle. If he was, he could have chose to drive Bran out. In the case of the direwolves, the choice was mutual, if not initiated by the wolves themselves...

Trees are not used as a symbol for life in these books, I would argue... but like the bible, they do seem akin to the tree of life and death, the tree of knowledge...that Lucifer (light and wisdom) encourages Eve to eat from (like Bran's weirwood paste). GRRM calls this the green ceremony, when Bran is wed to the trees. Green, I think, does represent life. But a weirwood represents both Life and Death. It is blood and bone, incarnate. Rooting in bones (as Bran found in Bloodraven's cave), while drinking blood (as Bran tastes), and producing blood red leaves, sap, and seeds (as Bran ingests). Weirwoods are the circle of life, the wheel, and that wheel passes through death as well as birth.

As to the winter version of greenseers, I think perhaps....but like "skinchanging" using existing Old Gods terminology seems wrong to me. If a counterpart exists, I think they are not "skinchanging" or "greenseeing" but animating dead bodies, conceiving "life" from Ice, and "watching" with the ever-cold stare of burning blue stars and razor-edged winds. The powers of the Others seem completely antithetical to the powers of the Old Gods.

While the powers of the Old Gods are drawn from the interconnectedness of life, forms of life, and life and death... the powers of the Others are drawn from anti-life, false life, and un-death.

I actually have this as a full pledge theory its in my signature. The Cold the Wights and the Wight Walker. I think there is a Winter Greenseer and he is the one that is raising the Wights and driving them.

Its Skinchanging magic and abilities just with the dead.

Uh'oh... the plugging of one's linked sig threads will surely draw the watchful eye of the Mother of Dragons. Expect a PM soon ;)

I need to check out your threads myself actually. Between Heresy and real life, it's hard to find time for my own threads let alone my friends' threads. Not cool! :) I'll stop by after this post... promise!

[A horsefaced girl]

I actually have this as a full pledge theory its in my signature. The Cold the Wights and the Wight Walker. I think there is a Winter Greenseer and he is the one that is raising the Wights and driving them.

Its Skinchanging magic and abilities just with the dead.

Wow, just read the whole thing. Yes that is pretty much what I was trying to say only 110% better, thanks. That catch with what leaf says to Bran after he sees Ned made me catch my breath, good one. Not really anything I could add to that.

I suspect the others are just waiting for their magic and powers to grow stronger. It gives new meaning to the phrase "the North remembers" waiting 8000 years for the next long night, everyone else forgot, including the Manderlys, ha.

[LmL]

I actually have this as a full pledge theory its in my signature. The Cold the Wights and the Wight Walker. I think there is a Winter Greenseer and he is the one that is raising the Wights and driving them.

Its Skinchanging magic and abilities just with the dead.

Sounds awesome, I'll be sure to check that out Wolfmaid :cheers:

[A horsefaced girl]

In my mind, wights are being controlled by a far away consciousness. For wolfmaid, that consciousness is the GS controlling the cold winds. For me, it is simply Ancient Others (or perhaps Night's King).

Yes, this is what i imagine but I like the winds idea as a vehicle for the magic.

[A horsefaced girl]

What side of the Wight/Greenseer resurrected fence would you put Robert Strong? That guy has me stumped.

[Pielord]

What side of the Wight/Greenseer resurrected fence would you put Robert Strong? That guy has me stumped.

artificial greenseeing/wight?, like how wildfire is artificial dragon breath

[A horsefaced girl]

Trees are not used as a symbol for life in these books, I would argue... but like the bible, they do seem akin to the tree of life and death, the tree of knowledge...that Lucifer (light and wisdom) encourages Eve to eat from (like Bran's weirwood paste). GRRM calls this the green ceremony, when Bran is wed to the trees. Green, I think, does represent life. But a weirwood represents both Life and Death. It is blood and bone, incarnate. Rooting in bones (as Bran found in Bloodraven's cave), while drinking blood (as Bran tastes), and producing blood red leaves, sap, and seeds (as Bran ingests). Weirwoods are the circle of life, the wheel, and that wheel passes through death as well as birth.

Beautifully said. This exactly.