Heresy 156

[MaesterSam]

Funny y'all should go for the "slender" and "graceful" stuff. I've been down that road myself - "slender... dark... graceful and quick" - and the answers I came up with included Petyr Baelish, and the CotF (per Luwin). :devil:

Well I don't think Jon is described as shorter than average, and he has 5 fingers so CotF IMO is not that likely. As for Petyr.... the description might work, but how would he have gotten into Lyanna's pants? She just defeated 3 knights in a joust, I doubt he could have raped her, but it seems even more unlikely that he could have charmed her into running away with him... especially fresh after the duel with Brandon. I don't think he had any power back then; he came to court (IIRC) only after RR, and then rose very high very quickly.

[WeaselPie]

The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was, and milky white .Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new-fallen snow....

The Other's sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing.

Samwell ASOS 18

:dunno:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well I don't think Jon is described as shorter than average, and he has 5 fingers so CotF IMO is not that likely. As for Petyr.... the description might work, but how would he have gotten into Lyanna's pants? She just defeated 3 knights in a joust, I doubt he could have raped her, but it seems even more unlikely that he could have charmed her into running away with him... especially fresh after the duel with Brandon. I don't think he had any power back then; he came to court (IIRC) only after RR, and then rose very high very quickly.

Oh, I'm not saying Littlefinger is Jon's father (though I've certainly entertained the idea)... but if you're looking for slender and graceful, the description fits.

Now, the question of interbreeding between CotF and Men is fairly interesting. I don't think there's great evidence either way in the books, and I don't ever trust HBO's take to necessarily reflect Martin's original intent. But I'd be curious to know what my fellow heretics think of the idea that the crannogmen fall into that gap.

So let's hear it, Heretics: Where do the crannogmen come from? Are they Men? (If so, are they First Men?) Are they Singers? Are they some combination of both? Or... are they something else entirely?

[Bran the Broken </3]

So let's hear it, Heretics: Where do the crannogmen come from? Are they Men? (If so, are they First Men?) Are they Singers? Are they some combination of both? Or... are they something else entirely?

I read a post that spome about how different races of men cannot interbreed successfully (it had tons of quotes from tWoIaF but I am too lazy to go search now. [emoji14] ). Unless magic is used to enhance the process as the Valyrians were fabled as doing. I would use this as a base and say that the following possibilities could be considered-

1. The cronnogmen are the result of Men and CotF going chittichittibangbang and using some of their foresty magic as viagra.

2. Cronnogmen are a result of simply evolution and adaptations to their natural habitat. Thus would fit with them being First Men as it would give them more time to change characteristics.

I lean toward the 2nd option.

[WeaselPie]

Oh, I'm not saying Littlefinger is Jon's father (though I've certainly entertained the idea)... but if you're looking for slender and graceful, the description fits.

Now, the question of interbreeding between CotF and Men is fairly interesting. I don't think there's great evidence either way in the books, and I don't ever trust HBO's take to necessarily reflect Martin's original intent. But I'd be curious to know what my fellow heretics think of the idea that the crannogmen fall into that gap.

So let's hear it, Heretics: Where do the crannogmen come from? Are they Men? (If so, are they First Men?) Are they Singers? Are they some combination of both? Or... are they something else entirely?

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers...

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

Definite CotF involvement. The curious thing about Jojen is his eyes turned green after a fever. There may be some lingering magic in the Neck due to the failed (thwarted?) use of the Hammer of the Waters. Interbreeding sounds likely to me.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I do love heresy, but that's a touch too much.

Say Jon is not a Stark but a Dayne. Fine and dandy. Why should Ned take him to WF as his bastard child? He could as well stay in Starfall as whoever they deemed fit to say. And later he could have been fostered in WF if they wanted it that much. There was no problem to say he had been fathered by Arthur Dayne. He wasn't even the heir to Starfall.

It's said that Rhaegar and Brainless Bob fought on the Trident for the woman they loved. Jon has to be R's son if only to justify the hatred between the both of them.

If Aegon was the father, he would have broken his vows with Lyanna. With both parents dead and one a KG, taking Jon away and raised as Ned son would go a long way in Arthur's honor, and maybe in keeping promises too. No shame to House Dayne and Lyanna.

I always thought that if Ashara did truly leap to her death that she had been taking care of Jon, along with Wylla Wett, and the pain of losing her loved ones and whatever else; Arthur, her stillborn baby and Ned taking baby Jon and leaving Ashara to her lonesome self, would be enough to push her off the ledge.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Certainly possible. Perhaps, after he defeated the Others, he said, "The hell with this. I want to move somewhere warm."

I have said the similarly same statement that Ser Hero escaped to Essos, taking the legends of Long Night along with him. This was well before the World book.

[Joe Pine]

Someone suggested up above that Arthur Dayne fought as Rhaegar at the Trident. There are two problems with this. First, glamours presumably wear off when the glamoured person dies (this is probably a second reason that Rattleshirt was turned into a crispy critter). Really, they better cease upon death. Otherwise, how are we going to otherwise see that Melisandre actually looks like brisket cooked for twelve hours?

In a full suit of armour battered by Trouserless Bob's warhammer and then ridden over, do you think it matters if glamoured or not? - 'Looks like Rhaegar, must be Rhaegar' would be good enough after the battle, especially if Arthur Dayne and Rhaegar were close enough in looks.

Second, Arthur Dayne is buried in a cairn near the Tower the Joy, and Deaddard returned his sword, the one that only he could wield, to Starfall.

Is he buried under those cairns?

[Bran the Broken </3]

Is he buried under those cairns?

No don't do that! Now I can't stop thinking about it! [emoji31]

[Joe Pine]

I read a post that spome about how different races of men cannot interbreed successfully (it had tons of quotes from tWoIaF but I am too lazy to go search now. [emoji14] ). Unless magic is used to enhance the process as the Valyrians were fabled as doing. I would use this as a base and say that the following possibilities could be considered-

1. The cronnogmen are the result of Men and CotF going chittichittibangbang and using some of their foresty magic as viagra.

2. Cronnogmen are a result of simply evolution and adaptations to their natural habitat. Thus would fit with them being First Men as it would give them more time to change characteristics.

I lean toward the 2nd option.

The thread about the Starks not being First Men and being proto-valerians. It's a good enough theory based on the world book.

From what I've seen/read, I don't believe the Crannogmen are different solely due to evolution, I think there's a little bit of Children/Crannogmen getting jiggy.

[Joe Pine]

No don't do that! Now I can't stop thinking about it!

I think there's a reasonable chance that the Cairns do not have under them what we've been led to believe, but there's plenty of stretch around any of the events at the TOJ showdown.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh, I'm not saying Littlefinger is Jon's father (though I've certainly entertained the idea)... but if you're looking for slender and graceful, the description fits.

Now, the question of interbreeding between CotF and Men is fairly interesting. I don't think there's great evidence either way in the books, and I don't ever trust HBO's take to necessarily reflect Martin's original intent. But I'd be curious to know what my fellow heretics think of the idea that the crannogmen fall into that gap.

So let's hear it, Heretics: Where do the crannogmen come from? Are they Men? (If so, are they First Men?) Are they Singers? Are they some combination of both? Or... are they something else entirely?

I recall a few ideas of crannogmen ancestors a few threads back. Ffr, some others and I talked about the possibility of them being an ancient people of Mother Rhoyne who migrated to Westeros and brought with them the powers of water magic. After befriending the magically inclined Singers of the song of earth, possibly they traded 'recipes'; A little water and earth magic mixed together and the possibility of the two working together on the Hammer.

"Hey! You got chocolate in my peanut butter!"

"You got peanut butter in my chocolate!"

And so was the beginnings of the crannogmen and cotf bond.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The thread about the Starks not being First Men and being proto-valerians. It's a good enough theory based on the world book.

From what I've seen/read, I don't believe the Crannogmen are different solely due to evolution, I think there's a little bit of Children/Crannogmen getting jiggy.

So. We've gone beyond secret Targs to secret Valyrians. :leaving:

[Joe Pine]

So. We've gone beyond secret Targs to secret Valyrians. :leaving:

It's a theory that's a decent read, working from the oily black stones, it may explain some pre-history, it's a few stretches, but not that bad a theory.

[Eira Seren]

Don't take me wrong. As far as I'm concerned, fell free to be heretic. It's only that not every heresy will prove true.

Both instances are more or less the same. Should Jon's parents be Arthur and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara, he'd be half Stark, but also half Dayne.

I'm with the theory that Jon was born in Starfall, but he sure was there anyway, when Ned went there to deliver Dawn. Why don't let him with the Daynes? Why should he take Jon home, and lie to Cat about their parents?

Moreover, why lie? What's wrong with Ashara being his mother? I know, Ned was married to Cat and so on but, what else? What a difference made the mother? It'd be more astonishing if their parents were Arthur and Lyanna, but Ned told the world that Jon was his own son. Can you imagine Cat's reaction if she knew? "So you feel more mannish if people think you cheat your wife, don't you!?" One think is cheating your wife and admit the "fruit", but pretending to have cheated her and tell the boy is yours...that's serious. It's only justified if the boy's life is in real danger, as a half-Targ's would.

If baby Jon were half Dayne, he'd stayed in Starfall with his familly. With time, he could be fostered in WF, if he could then endure northern climate. No lies needed.

:) well I'm not worried about it proving true, I'm worried about establishing it as a good theory and making a good case for it. Then we will see which version turns out to be viable once the series ends.

The lie is an interesting question to me. I suppose it could be down to Lyanna's promise. Why she would extract that under those circumstances I am still trying to figure out.

All I can think of right now is that that must be what is connected to Ned lying to cat "the lies we tell for love"...

Why Ned brought Jon back to the north? suggests that there must've been some reason he felt John needed to be raised in the north... This could be down to Lyanna's wishes again, or have some other sort of significance.

[Eira Seren]

Oh, I'm not saying Littlefinger is Jon's father (though I've certainly entertained the idea)... but if you're looking for slender and graceful, the description fits.

Now, the question of interbreeding between CotF and Men is fairly interesting. I don't think there's great evidence either way in the books, and I don't ever trust HBO's take to necessarily reflect Martin's original intent. But I'd be curious to know what my fellow heretics think of the idea that the crannogmen fall into that gap.

So let's hear it, Heretics: Where do the crannogmen come from? Are they Men? (If so, are they First Men?) Are they Singers? Are they some combination of both? Or... are they something else entirely?

I think they might be first men who perhaps had some kind of magical intermingling with the singers. I also think there may have been intermarrying or the like. I can't imagine it but seeing as how there are guys like Robert Baratheon who will go for anything in a skirt... I suppose Crannogmen could also be some descendants of old races. If accurate, it's suggested by Luwin and the world book that they got close to the singers when they were ruled by the marsh king.

And when the stark who defeated the marsh King married his daughter that might explain how some of the magic got into the stark genes-but I think it was probably there in the Starks from earlier anyway.

[JNR]

So far. But does ice magic live? I suppose it might be possible. or it might be the Newcastle I drank.

Newcastle Brown is definitely a form of magic. I also endorse Ommegang Abbey and Dogfish Head 90 Minute IPA, and if you want a really strong and complex beer, try the Dogfish Head Immort Ale... if you can find any.

As for the Isle, I feel like, for real, something had to have happened there. Why else spend 5 books telling us 'nobody can reach it', but then little Howland spends two years there just chillin' and it's of no consequence? Seems unlikely.

I'd go a lot stronger on this point. Something's been happening there for thousands of years, something strong enough to resist two different waves of invaders both of whom were bent on burning and cutting down weirwoods.

As for Petyr.... the description might work, but how would he have gotten into Lyanna's pants?

Are you assuming Lyanna is Jon's mother?

If so, then since we don't know where Lyanna was at any time in the Rebellion, it's hard to say if Petyr would have had access or not. All we can say is that she would have conceived roughly nine months before the Sack.

[Eira Seren]

Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers...

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

Definite CotF involvement. The curious thing about Jojen is his eyes turned green after a fever. There may be some lingering magic in the Neck due to the failed (thwarted?) use of the Hammer of the Waters. Interbreeding sounds likely to me.

Is that why the call it the fever river :)

Also, voice of the first men May not agree but I think the bolded is a good case for the singers having access to more than just Earth magic.

[JNR]

So let's hear it, Heretics: Where do the crannogmen come from? Are they Men? (If so, are they First Men?) Are they Singers? Are they some combination of both? Or... are they something else entirely?

I think they could have been men who reached Westeros before those called the First Men -- one of various groups that may have predated the First Men, actually, the Squishers being a good candidate for another.

[Bran the Broken </3]

Are you assuming Lyanna is Jon's mother?

If so, then since we don't know where Lyanna was at any time in the Rebellion, it's hard to say if Petyr would have had access or not. All we can say is that she would have conceived roughly nine months before the Sack.

If Petyr was the father I think he would have had a more significant interaction with Jon when the Royal Party stopped over at Winterfell. why? coz Petyr could use him to sow some solid seeds of dissent in Winterfell and gained a foothold there for future use.