Heresy 156

[Black Crow]

And, in fairness, Arthur Dayne as Jon's father isn't completely out of left field, since many of the logistics that would place Rhaegar with Lyanna during the correct time period would also apply to Dayne. What's missing, IMHO, is any solid characterization for Dayne himself; how he's defined beyond simply being an extraordinary knight, what his interpersonal relationships were, etc. We're over 5,000 pages deep, and he's essentially a blank slate.

But then on the other hand he's dead, and dead before the story opens. Jon at the present time is conflicted by his being brought up at Winterfell and yet repeatedly told he's an outsider. Ned has always been a father to him, while Catelyn has never been a mother. To learn that his mother was his father's beloved sister will confirm that emotionally as well as physically he is indeed the son of Winterfell he has always wanted to be and which Maester Aemon proclaims him to be. On that level knowledge of his natural father is of far less importance because he has never known him. So the question then is whether his natural father is going to make a difference and there it becomes interesting.

The traditional candidate is Rhaegar Targaryen for all the well-known reasons, but turn to the consequences and we have a problem. Why should Rhaegar matter? The traditional answer again is that Jon is the rightful king of Westeros and that even if none of the speculative "proofs" set him upon the throne his royal blood will out and he will prove such a mighty leader that the lack of paperwork won't matter. I could go on but we've all it before, and the problem here is that there's not the remotest hint of such an outcome in the synopsis. At some point Jon will learn the truth of his identity and so get inside Arya's knickers at last, but its Danaerys orchestrating the climactic battle not Jon. That being the case does his natural father need to be Rhaegar?

So then, what of Ser Arthur Dayne? Yes, in sum we know relatively little, but all of it's good, the family is an old First Men one, which may be significant in the renewal of a conflict stretching back thousands of years before the upstart Targaryens ever came to Westeros, and there's the sword and the title, both waiting for the right Dayne to be worthy enough to bear them. And there's also the irony and the guilt of that other near parallel with the story of Bael in which Jon's father is slain by his uncle - who therefore died a kinslayer - suggested by the way Lord Eddard afterwards took the trouble to ride to Starfall to return the sword.

If Rhaegar seems so obvious a candidate is that because he is masking both the importance of Lyanna being Jon's mother and the fact that it was Ser Arthur who may have been his father.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Brilliant analysis. I really like it, too. The idea of the Bael connection as insult is also a bit like saying to everyone else, these people are creating a dangerous political alliance, offsetting a rather delicate balance to the realm,s stability. if you side with them, you are effectively handing the realm into the hands of bastards, wildlings and wargs.

Well, not handing the realm to them, not exactly, but it's all political rhetoric.

:cheers:, Eira! And thanks. One of the things I like about the layered meaning in this interpretation of Rhaegar's gesture is the fact that the political message ("Starks who refuse to kneel are merely wildlings by another name") would be subtle enough to preserve whatever secrecy there was surrounding the political maneuvering at Harrenhal. The song of the winter rose would be known to House Stark, and to Rhaegar the bard and scholar - but perhaps not so broadly to southron Westeros (or to Aerys) that it would give anything away. Yet Rhaegar delivers the message boldly in public - before the entire realm - in a manner that could leave everyone whispering and wondering about scandal every time they consider the Stark-Baratheon alliance.

Now obviously this didn't all work out to Rhaegar's benefit, in the end. In fact, it laid important groundwork for painting him as a villain and for true rebellion against the throne. But at the time of the tourney, I think the message itself might have seemed rather deft and savvy.

.

[MaesterSam]

But then on the other hand he's dead, and dead before the story opens. Jon at the present time is conflicted by his being brought up at Winterfell and yet repeatedly told he's an outsider. Ned has always been a father to him, while Catelyn has never been a mother. To learn that his mother was his father's beloved sister will confirm that emotionally as well as physically he is indeed the son of Winterfell he has always wanted to be and which Maester Aemon proclaims him to be. On that level knowledge of his natural father is of far less importance because he has never known him. So the question then is whether his natural father is going to make a difference and there it becomes interesting.

The traditional candidate is Rhaegar Targaryen for all the well-known reasons, but turn to the consequences and we have a problem. Why should Rhaegar matter? The traditional answer again is that Jon is the rightful king of Westeros and that even if none of the speculative "proofs" set him upon the throne his royal blood will out and he will prove such a mighty leader that the lack of paperwork won't matter. I could go on but we've all it before, and the problem here is that there's not the remotest hint of such an outcome in the synopsis. At some point Jon will learn the truth of his identity and so get inside Arya's knickers at last, but its Danaerys orchestrating the climactic battle not Jon. That being the case does his natural father need to be Rhaegar?

So then, what of Ser Arthur Dayne? Yes, in sum we know relatively little, but all of it's good, the family is an old First Men one, which may be significant in the renewal of a conflict stretching back thousands of years before the upstart Targaryens ever came to Westeros, and there's the sword and the title, both waiting for the right Dayne to be worthy enough to bear them. And there's also the irony and the guilt of that other near parallel with the story of Bael in which Jon's father is slain by his uncle - who therefore died a kinslayer - suggested by the way Lord Eddard afterwards took the trouble to ride to Starfall to return the sword.

If Rhaegar seems so obvious a candidate is that because he is masking both the importance of Lyanna being Jon's mother and the fact that it was Ser Arthur who may have been his father.

With all due respect, I think you are stretching the definition of kinslayer a bit. Ned and Arthur are not related by blood, and unless we had a secret wedding after all, are not even in-laws. Killing a random man that your sister had an affair with does not make you a kinslayer. IMO.

But all in all I agree that Arthur is a better candidate than Rhaegar. Especially if he had dark hair. I know it's a fantasy world, but the idea of Lyanna (brown hair, grey eyes) and Rhaegar (silver-gold hair, purple/indigo eyes) making a black-haired, dark baby with dark grey eyes just rubs me the wrong way. Jon also has no dragon dreams, he doesn't seem half-mad, and honor/duty are more important to him than power - so basically he has not a single Targ trait, whether physical or psychological. Honor, duty- Stark traits, but from what we hear they fit the Daynes as well. He also seems to be good with a sword, though how good is hard to say given the lack of true competition.

[JNR]

I'm hoping he's handled the larger mysteries of his story with the same care and eye for detail

I imagine you'll be happy.

With all due respect, I think you are stretching the definition of kinslayer a bit. Ned and Arthur are not related by blood, and unless we had a secret wedding after all, are not even in-laws. Killing a random man that your sister had an affair with does not make you a kinslayer. IMO.

:agree:

the idea of Lyanna (brown hair, grey eyes) and Rhaegar (silver-gold hair, purple/indigo eyes) making a black-haired, dark baby with dark grey eyes just rubs me the wrong way. Jon also has no dragon dreams, he doesn't seem half-mad, and honor/duty are more important to him than power - so basically he has not a single Targ trait, whether physical or psychological.

Quite right, and I recall making the identical argument in the Curious Case threads last year. Though, speaking from long experience, I suggest you refrain from damaging the fresh young minds in General with these painful truths.

Should you try, you will get the most remarkable responses. For instance,"Rhaegar and Jon are both slender" (even though Rhaegar is never described as slender).

Or perhaps "Rhaegar and Jon are both emo" even though inherited emo-ness is really quite a hazy, debatable matter.

Or even "Jon has Rhaegar's ears but his hair is so long, they're covered," which is my favorite. (The foot/shoes variant is just as good.)

Quite charming, the idea that eventually Jon will declare his Targ heritage, face the inevitable laughter and skepticism, and then... will cut his hair, reveal his ears, and thus instantly silence all doubt forever!

It's really quite refreshing seeing all this doubt about RLJ in Heresy. I remember a time over two years ago when I was Garth Greenhand, quite alone in my confident doubt and wondering if I could plant any seeds.

[Black Crow]

With all due respect, I think you are stretching the definition of kinslayer a bit. Ned and Arthur are not related by blood, and unless we had a secret wedding after all, are not even in-laws. Killing a random man that your sister had an affair with does not make you a kinslayer. IMO.

A little bit yes, but an element of kinslaying is consistent with using Bael as a metaphor and I while I wouldn't advance that particular parallel on its own, it might well be significant in the context of Lord Eddard's "fever dream" which we know isn't to be taken literally.

We have discussed the likelihood that Lyanna was not at the tower where Ser Arthur died and that Lord Eddard is not recalling a single event in that dream. In the past we've looked at Ser Arthur and the others dying in a formal rencounter at the tower and then Lord Eddard proceeding to Starfall only to find Lyanna dying there. Of late the possibility has been raised that she may have died earlier. There isn't, to be honest, any real evidence this was so but it might explain Lord Eddard's guilt over the broken promises.

Consider this interpretation: Lord Eddard finds the dying Lyanna and baby Jon. She tells Lord Eddard that Ser Arthur Dayne is the father and begs him to promise not to harm Ser Arthur. Then comes the rencounter at the tower. Lord Eddard, mindful of his promise tries hard to persuade the three ronin to surrender but they refuse and in the end Lord Eddard is compelled to break that promise by slaying Ser Arthur - hence the guilt that haunted him for the rest of his life.

[Urrax2]

... Consider this interpretation: Lord Eddard finds the dying Lyanna and baby Jon. She tells Lord Eddard that Ser Arthur Dayne is the father and begs him to promise not to harm Ser Arthur. Then comes the rencounter at the tower. Lord Eddard, mindful of his promise tries hard to persuade the three ronin to surrender but they refuse and in the end Lord Eddard is compelled to break that promise by slaying Ser Arthur - hence the guilt that haunted him for the rest of his life.

Or it might be that Ned, mindful of his promise to Lyanna, hesitated to strike Dayne and would have been slain by him but for the last-minute intervention of Howland Reed?

[Black Crow]

Or it might be that Ned, mindful of his promise to Lyanna, hesitated to strike Dayne and would have been slain by him but for the last-minute intervention of Howland Reed?

Indeed and I'm likewise mindful here of the parallel of Bael being slain because he would not strike his son.

[Matthew.]

I'm talking about the Last Hero :cool4:

It's not impossible, I think, that the Last Hero was the first Sword of the Morning, especially with that curious note from Samwell about dragonsteel. Fire consumes - maybe the reason none of the tales we've heard attach an identity to the Last Hero is because, by the end of the Long Night, even he no longer remembered who he used to be.

Fair enough. I wasn't ruling it out, I just personally prefer it to be Ice. Which is now red, and in a great location to be set on fire soon.

I agree that Ice is going to replicate the Lightbringer myth, but that doesn't mean Dawn isn't the original source of at least some of the legends. I guess this is a consequence of my rather flexible philosophy when it comes to prophecy; from my perspective, Drogon, a reforged Ice, or a renewed Pact could all technically be "Lightbringer," with no one thing being a more true fulfillment of prophecy than another.

With the way magic works on Planetos, I don't think there's any such thing as R'hllor, or a chosen messianic hero. Instead, I believe the only prerequisite to terrible power is a willingness to pay an equally terrible price.

[WeaselPie]

But Ice is not the original Ice. Confusing detail there. Not to say the new Ice/Widow's Wail/Oathkeeper isn't important.

I think Dawn is the original Ice. Actually I brought that up this morning in LIL's Astronomy thread over on general.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

It was on the German Amazon site

Thanks. Just want to say even though I never contribute (little intimated lol). I really love your heresy threads. After waiting for the next book so long, endless speculation on if Jon will end up with Val or not, Dany is mad and the 1,000,000th R+L=J thread etc will drive you insane, you and other heretics have made these forums fun for me over the years. Myself, I am really suspicious of Bloodraven and the COTF, they are up to no good in their cavern of bones hehe.

[Voice]

I swear I did not mean my previous post to have anything at all to do with this one

LOL

[WeaselPie]

Thanks. Just want to say even though I never contribute (little intimated lol). I really love your heresy threads. After waiting for the next book so long, endless speculation on if Jon will end up with Val or not, Dany is mad and the 1,000,000th R+L=J thread etc will drive you insane, you and other heretics have made these forums fun for me over the years. Myself, I am really suspicious of Bloodraven and the COTF, they are up to no good in their cavern of bones hehe.

I hope you join in more often. I'm also new (a few weeks? something like that) to these threads. It's easier to keep up with the conversations if you contribute, I've learned.

LOL

I was wondering if anyone caught that...

[Black Crow]

Thanks. Just want to say even though I never contribute (little intimated lol). I really love your heresy threads. After waiting for the next book so long, endless speculation on if Jon will end up with Val or not, Dany is mad and the 1,000,000th R+L=J thread etc will drive you insane, you and other heretics have made these forums fun for me over the years. Myself, I am really suspicious of Bloodraven and the COTF, they are up to no good in their cavern of bones hehe.

Please do join in, unlike some threads we don't bite and fresh insights are always good.

[wolfmaid7]

Some really interesting things transpired while i was sleeping.Three pages in already.I'm not yet convinced by Arthur being Jon's dad but i like it more than Rhaegar,but less than Aerys...lol

I think this post by Supernknown5 deserves another look: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125541-heresy-155/page-20

And ontop of that a little tidbit on the Daynes from the WB:

" Archmaster Brude,who was born and raised in the shadow city......once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie in between them."One is hot and one is cold,yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart

Sword of the Morning Sidebar " There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and it's title."

Much is made about Jon having to be from House Targ because it seemed important that he be the union of Fire and Ice and yes the Targs do have a very strong hot/fire motif going on with them.However,it seems the hot attribute can be linked to Dorne as well.From the above it would also seem one has to be a son of Starfall as a prereq.

Barring the blood could Jon be considered a Son of Starfall,just having been born there? Among the noted clues that he was,we have Edric Dayne putting Jon there as his nurse brother.Which presents another problem and one i've been pointing at.

ETA: Jon's statement:

"The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its

ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a

long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.( at the time Jon's 15th name day had been a fourthnight passed)

This puts Jon at about 5yrs old and not a babe in arms.

Now notice Edric's year of birth date.He was born 287 in Starfall and claime Jon as his Milk brother .It also put Jon older than his Milk brother by 5yrs.

[Black Crow]

But Ice is not the original Ice.

Indeed;

Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

I can see Lord Eddard's Ice reforged [presumably by Gendry] as a suitable metaphor for the return of House Stark, but a certain much older sword might yet have some significance in all of this.

[Black Crow]

Some really interesting tings transpired while i was sleeping.Three pages in already.

I think this post by Supernknown5 deserves another look: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125541-heresy-155/page-20

And ontop of that a little tidbit on the Daynes from the WB:

" Archmaster Brude,who was born and raised in the shadow city......once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie in between them."One is hot and one is cold,yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart

Sword of the Morning Sidebar " There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and it's title."

Much is made about Jon having to be from House Targ because it seemed important that he be the union of Fire and Ice and yes the Targs do have a very strong hot/fire motif going on with them.However,it seems the hot attribute can be linked to Dorne as well.From the above one has to be a son of Starfall as a prereq.

"Those who have the honor of examinig it( Dawn) say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know,being pale as Milk glass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian steel,being incredibly strong and sharp."

Does anybody else see "Other sword" in this descirption?

Not necessarily, but it does occur to me that Dragonsteel may not be the same as dragonglass at all but might be something suitable to slay dragons as well as white walkers.

ETA: I rather like the stuff on Dorne. One of the problems with the question of Jon's true parentage is that while the R+L=J theory has as many holes as a slice of Emmenthal its always been difficult to see a realistic alternative. Casting Ser Arthur Dayne as his father really does look from so many different directions as though it might have legs.

[Voice]

Not necessarily, but it does occur to me that Dragonsteel may not be the same as dragonglass at all but might be something suitable to slay dragons as well as white walkers.

Finally! LOL

[PrettyPig]

With all due respect, I think you are stretching the definition of kinslayer a bit. Ned and Arthur are not related by blood, and unless we had a secret wedding after all, are not even in-laws. Killing a random man that your sister had an affair with does not make you a kinslayer. IMO.

Ah, but what if....? We still have Ned's comment to Bob: "In the eyes of gods and men, I dishonored Catelyn and I dishonored myself. I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

When a Stark says "in the eyes of gods and men", something has happened in front of a weirwood. Three things have taken place in front of a weirwood in the series: executions, vows of the Night's Watch, and marriages. (Jon also has a fantasy moment of consummating his relationship with Ygritte in front of a weirwood - although that never actually happened, it's clear that to northerners doing the deed in front of a tree is a big thing.)

Then we have Barristan's words: "But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost.."

Ashara didn't jump to her death until AFTER Ned arrives at Starfall - so if she had borne her child shortly before that, then...we're talking about a kid born right around the Sack give or take a month. Meaning this kid was conceived somewhere around.....well, you do the math.

Combine all of this with Ned's trip to Starfall, Edric Dayne's tale to Arya and obvious respect for Ned, and a mysterious Dayne daughter named Allyria who by my deductive reasoning is probably right around 13-14 at the start of AGOT, and I think it's highly possible that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne did more than just make shy googly eyes at each other.

My pet speculation is that Ned met up with Ashara sometime around the start of the rebellion, did some thing before a heart tree, and fathered a child with her. This becomes problematic, though, when you are the replacement groom for your big brother's fiancee.

"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows." (Recall that Ned has just seen Bob's latest crotch fruit, Barra.)

"He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them."

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words."

Shame is perfectly reasonable if you had fathered a bastard of your own, and sorrow is likewise reasonable if you lost both your child and the mother you loved because of a war your family had a hand in starting.

[Voice]

Over in my new hierarchy thread LB just mentioned dragonbone might be our lost dragonsteel. I've never considered it before but it makes a lot of sense.

[WeaselPie]

Some really interesting tings transpired while i was sleeping.Three pages in already.

I think this post by Supernknown5 deserves another look: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125541-heresy-155/page-20

And ontop of that a little tidbit on the Daynes from the WB:

" Archmaster Brude,who was born and raised in the shadow city......once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie in between them."One is hot and one is cold,yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart

Sword of the Morning Sidebar " There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and it's title."

Much is made about Jon having to be from House Targ because it seemed important that he be the union of Fire and Ice and yes the Targs do have a very strong hot/fire motif going on with them.However,it seems the hot attribute can be linked to Dorne as well.From the above one has to be a son of Starfall as a prereq.

"Those who have the honor of examinig it( Dawn) say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know,being pale as Milk glass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian steel,being incredibly strong and sharp."

Does anybody else see "Other sword" in this descirption?

yes, it's just missing a blue-ish tinge. Jaime's dream swords have the right color though. Weird.

K I need to mention something about the sand, and I know I said it as a crackpot but Jaime's fever dream...

He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water...

"What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin...

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness."...

As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back...

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."...

In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords...

They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders...

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly....

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark...

Heart pounding, he jerked awake, and found himself in starry darkness amidst a grove of trees...

There's no place like that beneath the Rock, he thought...

He wondered how long it was till dawn...

Posit: Jaime might indeed be the Dayne. But the long-lost Ice is Dawn. Lots of cold imagery in the scene as well.

Plus that crack about Arthur being so skilled with his left hand. Half of Arthur Dayne's mentions are in Jaime chapters.

Anyhoo. Cheers. :)