Heresy 155

[markg171]

I had always assummed that Arthur Dayne had black hair; however.....(this is for Flagons)

If you look at the wiki (reader beware) character page they show him with golden locks. So if they both had long flowing hair (platinum versus blond) then I suppose each could potentially pass for the other.

Like Weasel said, the logical assumption would be that he looked like his sister (dark hair + purple eyes). But then we also have Edric, his nephew, who has blond hair and blue/purple eyes, and Darkstar, his cousin, who has silver hair and purple eyes.

In short, he conceivably could look very much like Rhaegar, but we have no reference for what he personally looked like at all so it's hard to say whether he favoured his sister or his nephew and cousin in looks. If he favoured the latter, he could pass as Rhaegar though

[JNR]

After all, his opponent was B.S.

I'll say.

[wolfmaid7]

Like Weasel said, the logical assumption would be that he looked like his sister (dark hair + purple eyes). But then we also have Edric, his nephew, who has blond hair and blue/purple eyes, and Darkstar, his cousin, who has silver hair and purple eyes.

In short, he conceivably could look very much like Rhaegar, but we have no reference for what he personally looked like at all so it's hard to say whether he favoured his sister or his nephew and cousin in looks. If he favoured the latter, he could pass as Rhaegar though

It is possible the coloring even if you don't see the face such a mistake could be seen:This is from Cersie's POV

"The other cousin, Elinor, was sharing a cup of wine with the handsome young Bastard of Driftmark, Aurane Waters. It was not the first time the queen had made note of Waters, a lean young man with grey-green eyes and long silver-gold hair. The first time she had seen him, for half a heartbeat she had almost thought Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the ashes. It is his hair, she told herself. He is not half as comely as Rhaegar was."

"Aurane Waters, the dashing young Bastard of Driftmark, would be her grand admiral."

"Aurane Waters seemed as bored as Cersei by all this prattle about septons. Seen up close, his hair was more silvery than gold, and his eyes were grey-green where Prince Rhaegar’s had been purple. Even so, the resemblance... She wondered if Waters would shave his beard for her."

Even with different eye coloring Aurane gave Cerscie pause. Now imagine someone with silver hair and the Rhaegar's eye coloring.

Aint saying i buy it,only that who knows it's possible.

[superunknown5]

Double post

[Voice]

Wait a second... didn't Barristan pull a Mystery Knight twice? In borrowed armor?

Speaking of the Mystery Knight, it is in that novella we learn of how easily tourneys can be rigged. There's no need for Rhaegar to have a substitute in order to win. Furthermore, if he were indeed wearing a great helm, I think it highly unlikely the victor never removed it before the masses.

It's far more likely, given the precedent established in the Mystery Knight, that the tourney itself was staged so that Rhaegar would win. Which means, the infamous tourney was staged specifically so that Rhaegar could present the crown of blue roses to Lyanna.

[MaesterSam]

For what it's worth, the artwork in the World book does show a helmed figure dumping the blue rose crown in Lyanna's lap.

Ah, nice! The theory lives. :cool4:

Don't know if I can do it adequate justice (READ THIS NOVEL, folks!!!) but I'll give it a wing.

Background: for those not aware, GRRM took the status of conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. Trumbo's novel is set in WWI and published right before WWII began - it was extremely anti-war and was blacklisted in the US until sometime in the 70s.

The main protagonist is Joe, who has been injured in artillery fire - and by "injured", I mean he can't see, can't hear, can't speak, can't eat, and has lost both arms and both legs. Everything that made him physically human is gone, in other words, but his mind is completely intact.

I won't go into full plot detail, but the passage relevant to the Theon dream is as follows:

Joe feels as though he is going insane - he begans seeing himself as imprisoned against his will by his hospital "jailers" who keep torturing him. He ponders on the use of slave labor in history and how ancient Carthaginians would cut out the eyes of slaves and force them to guard treasure. (Interesting parallels here, I think.)

Joe is sedated by his doctor, and has a dream in which he sees Christ - who is a 16yo boy that was given the option to go to war to avoid going to jail - at a train station playing cards with several other men. The men are discussing their deaths in the war. One of them takes objection to Joe's presence because he does not/will not die in the war. When Joe explains what has happened to him instead, the men fall silent and agree to let him stick around, as his fate [as less than a man] is actually worse than death.

The men board the train and ride to their deaths, but the teenage Christ does not join them,saying he has other men to visit before they die.

Joe jumps off the train as well, and runs over to prostrate himself at the feet of the teenage Christ.

So again, I am reading Theon's scene in the context of my own literary experiences, but this parallel just screamed to me. I may be reading too much into it, but these are two really powerful images that I can't help but think are deliberate connections by GRRM.

Wow, that's deep. But very interesting. So if I'm following you correctly, Theon is allowed at the feast of the dead b/c his (coming) fate is worse than death. So the dream is a preview not only of Robb's death at the RW but also of what will happen to Theon. I like it!

Hmmm interesting. Of course, we then get into the problem of who jousted as Arthur, if Arthur was really Rhaegar? Because Rhaegar defeated Arthur at Harrenhal and he can't defeat himself.

In our one encounter with Arthur though, we do see that he was also a helmed man

So perhaps they did the old switcheroo. Arthur obviously had to wear his distinct white armour, and Rhaegar had his distinct black armour, so if you didn't know who was inside the armour, you'd just assume it was the person who always wears that armour. Especially in a tournament where they literally announce who's who. You'd never expect it wasn't who they were made out to be.

I'm still inclined to think that Rhaegar was simply Rhaegar, but it's something I'll have to consider

I wasn't suggesting they fought in switched armor the whole time- only that Ser Arthur fought some matches as Rhaegar- thereby allowing Rhaegar to sneak off and meet with lords in secret. Rhaegar never fought as Arthur, and certainly was himself in the match where they fought each other.

In which case I'd have expected Rhaegar to be pulled in long before the Trident.

See, Connington became Hand early in the War, prior to the Battle of the Bells.

But it was months and months later that Rhaegar finally showed up at King's Landing. This tells me Aerys didn't know where he was.

However, if it wasn't him, we now must explain why Rhaegar would be content to let Westeros think he had done that, when he hadn't, for the entire next year.

It's ineffective if the facts are inadequate.

And they have always been grossly inadequate for the logistics of RLJ; after all, we don't know where either R was, or L was, for almost the entire duration of the War. We don't even know for sure J was born at the ToJ (because J stands for Joy, not Jon).

For other mysteries frequently brought up in Heresy, hmm... I think there are plenty of facts.

But how would he explain it? Uh, I was cheating, having Arthur fight for me, and the idiot picked the wrong girl after he won. That wouldn't go over well at all, and show him to be a liar and a cheater.

By itself, the crowning was a faux pas but not that huge of a deal. Elia could have known about the switch, thus not being offended. And Robert and the Starks would have gotten over it if she didn't happen to get kidnapped a few months later. Letting it blow over was probably a wiser decision than admitting to the switch, especially with paranoid Aerys still around.

The only problem i see with the whole "swicharoo" between Arthur and Rhaegar would " what is the point" if no one can tell whose in the armour.

The point is that Rhaegar can sneak away for meetings with individual lords. They never "switched", Arthur just filled in for Rhaegar a few times, giving him an alibi and ensuring nobody was looking for him, as he was there in plain sight, jousting.

[wolfmaid7]

The point is that Rhaegar can sneak away for meetings with individual lords. They never "switched", Arthur just filled in for Rhaegar a few times, giving him an alibi and ensuring nobody was looking for him, as he was there in plain sight, jousting.

Yep i got that was the point eventually.

[superunknown5]

So, on the Arthur Dayne front, let's talk about The Soiled Knight in AFFC. This is Arys Oakheart's sole POV chapter. This is the only POV chapter we get from an active member of the KG who isn't Jaime or Barristan (who's Queensguard anyhow). Now, I am inclined to believe that GRRM included this one chapter for a reason, and the reason is pretty obvious.

The entire central thrust (excuse the pun) of said chapter is about a KG having a torrid love affair in Dorne with Arianne Martell. Now, we know how the folks of Dorne feel about paramours. They are very accepting of the whole concept. (Ser Arthur, is, of course, himself a Dornishman, I'll remind you at this point.) Arys is racked with guilt over his sexual activities.

"... you are not your white cloak, ser."

"I am," Ser Arys said. "I am my cloak. And this must end, for your sake as well as mine. If we should be discovered..."

"Men will think you fortunate."
"Men will think me an oathbreaker." - The Soiled Knight, AFFC

There is a very clear (false) distinction drawn between the sloppy, dishonest, dead eyed modern KG, your Kingslayers, Boros Blounts, Meryn Trant, Mandon Moore, the Hound, et. al. and the sharp, noble pristine paragons that were the KG of Aerys. Arthur Dayne, the finest knight who ever lived. Barristan Selmy, the very image of the warrior, Gerold Hightower, Lewyn Martell, etc. etc. And Arys has bought into this myth that Back In My Day, the KG meant something! He is afraid he will fail to live up to their impossible standards. It's hero worship, plain and simple. And yet, Arianne Martell smacks him back to reality.

"Words are wind. If you love me, do not leave me."

"I swore a vow..."

"...not to wed or father children. Well, I have drunk my moon tea, and you know I cannot marry you." She smiled. "Though I might be persuaded to keep you for my paramour."

"Now you mock me."

"Perhaps a little. Do you think you are the only Kingsguard who ever loved a woman?" - The Soiled Knight, AFFC

They go on about it for a while...

"There have always been men who found it easier to speak their vows than keep them," he admitted. Ser Boros Blount was no stranger to the Street of Silk, and Ser Preston Greenfield used to call at a certain draper's house whenever the draper was away, but Arys would not shame his Sworn Brothers by speaking of their failings. "Ser Terrance Toyne was found abed with his king's mistress," he said instead. "'Twas love, he swore, but it cost his life and hers, and brought about the downfall of his house and the death of the noblest knight who ever lived."

"Yes, and what of Lucamore the Lusty, with his three wives and sixteen children?"...

"...He was no true knight."

"And the Dragonknight?"... ..."The noblest knight who ever lived, you said, and he took his queen to bed and got her with child."

"I will not believe that," he said, offended. "The tale of Prince Aemon's treason with Queen Naerys was only that, a tale, a lie his brother told when he wished to set his trueborn son aside. Aegon was not called the Unworthy without cause." - The Soiled Knight, AFFC

The denial is strong with this one. But here comes the real gobsmacker...

He found his sword belt and buckled it about his waist. Though it looked queer against the silken Dornish undertunic, the familiar weight of longsword and dagger reminded him of who and what he was. "I will not be remembered as Ser Arys the Unworthy," he declared. "I will not soil my cloak."

"Yes," she said, "that fine white cloak. You forget, my great-uncle wore the same cloak. He died when I was little, yet I still remember him. He was as tall as a tower and used to tickle me until I could not breathe for laughing."

"I never had the honor to know Prince Lewyn," Ser Arys said, "but all agree that he was a great knight."

"A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say."

Prince Lewyn? That tale Ser Arys had not heard. It shocked him. Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty were recorded in the White Book, but there was no hint of a woman on Lewyn's page.

"My uncle always said it was the sword in a man's hand that determined his worth, not the one between his legs," she went on, "so spare me all your pious talk of soiled cloaks. It is not our love that has dishonored you, it is the monsters you have served and the brutes you've called your brothers." - The Soiled Knight, AFFC

What I'm getting at is, the KG are just men. They're human. Always have been, always will be. Is it so inconceivable that Arthur Dayne, the finest knight Ned Stark ever saw, a Dornishman raised in a sexually permissive culture, fell in love with a pretty northern maid, and didn't see anything wrong with a little love on the side? What harm could ever come from love?

"Of all the bright cruel lies they tell you, the crudest one is called love." - Meathouse Man by George R.R. Martin

Since Dornishmen don't define their honor by who they sleep with, all Westeros needs is a little peace and love. So the hippie dippie Starchild Arthur Dayne made Lyanna Stark his sweet little blue winter rose Flower Child, far out man. :smoking:

And the realm went to hell in a handbasket.

[MaesterSam]

I assume the theory is that to ensure that the guy in the black armour won it was necessary to use a ringer.

Yeah, I don't actually think Rhaegar would need a stand-in for that last tilt. After all, his opponent was B.S. If he'd wanted to ensure victory at that point, a simple word to the faithful KG would have sufficed.

No no no you guys, it had nothing to do with winning. Rhaegar staged the tourney to have a council and meet with the lords. But then Aerys tags along, and Rhaegar is closely watched. He can't go missing for an hour or two without someone noticing. Enter Arthur Dayne. In addition to his own matches, Dayne also jousts in some of Rhaegar's- allowing the real Rhaegar to slip away and meet with potential allies.

The winning was irrelevant (until it wasn't) and only a side effect of choosing Ser Arthur, the best knight in the realm, as his stand-in.

Wait a second... didn't Barristan pull a Mystery Knight twice? In borrowed armor?

ooooh I like the way you think. If he happened to witness the earlier encounter, he'd be all about teaching those squires some honor! He is all about honor, all the time. Neat idea!

[Frey family reunion]

Ah, nice! The theory lives. :cool4:

Wow, that's deep. But very interesting. So if I'm following you correctly, Theon is allowed at the feast of the dead b/c his (coming) fate is worse than death. So the dream is a preview not only of Robb's death at the RW but also of what will happen to Theon. I like it!

I wasn't suggesting they fought in switched armor the whole time- only that Ser Arthur fought some matches as Rhaegar- thereby allowing Rhaegar to sneak off and meet with lords in secret. Rhaegar never fought as Arthur, and certainly was himself in the match where they fought each other.

But how would he explain it? Uh, I was cheating, having Arthur fight for me, and the idiot picked the wrong girl after he won. That wouldn't go over well at all, and show him to be a liar and a cheater.

By itself, the crowning was a faux pas but not that huge of a deal. Elia could have known about the switch, thus not being offended. And Robert and the Starks would have gotten over it if she didn't happen to get kidnapped a few months later. Letting it blow over was probably a wiser decision than admitting to the switch, especially with paranoid Aerys still around.

The point is that Rhaegar can sneak away for meetings with individual lords. They never "switched", Arthur just filled in for Rhaegar a few times, giving him an alibi and ensuring nobody was looking for him, as he was there in plain sight, jousting.

Barristan tells Dany point blank that Rhaegar won the Harrenhal tourney, and Barristan fought in the last tilt. I doubt Barristan would have been fooled into thinking he was jousting Rhaegar when he was instead jousting Arthur. These guys would have rode together, fought together, and jousted together way too many times for Barristan not to realize who he was really jousting.

[Voice]

I chuck that up to the nature of the song and that maybe t being the type of song where depending on who hear's it,it would be an {insert your own Ghost's and experiance here] kind of song.I've been saying for the longest while the only thing Lyanna seemed interested in is acting like a warrior.The tomboy characterization of her seemed very apt.Not to say she may not one day have felt the pagan call of the wild.It just seems she was a bit preoccupied with other things than "luuuv"

Haunting need not only be from literal ghosts, or past regrets. Lyanna seems to young and inexperienced to have many. She's only 14 or 15 when she hears the song. I think it must speak to something else. Perhaps, it speaks to her very identity as a warrior-girl. Maybe it made her question her role as a tomboy. It is indeed an apt description for her, as it has been for Arya. Lyanna=Arya in many ways.

The 1993 letter supports this, I believe, in moving the love triangle from Jon v. Tyrion for Arya's love to Rhaegar v. Robert for Lyanna's. But anyway, I don't think the song is as simple as evoking one's ghosts. Instead, it seems to evoke an even deeper sentiment. Maternal instinct? I can't say, but it seems to be something not shared by men. Plenty of men have ghosts, yet they do not react to Rhaegar's song.

That's true and my point,its the unlikely story being told and the characters are so filled with romanticism can't see how much BS it is. Oh Robert fought a war to win her back,oh Rhaegar loved her because he took her at Sword point...When you are to close to a situation or live in a latrine eventualy one becomes use to the stench.

Viserys doesn't seem filled with romanticism. He seems filled with contempt. That is why I find it strange that he doesn't blame Rhaegar for the downfall and exile of his house.

Instead, Dany has learned of him as a martyr. Dying for the woman he loved.

It is a strange characterization coming from Viserys in particular, who is not the mushy type, and who, one could say, lost more than anyone else due to Rhaegar's actions.

I think while the Reed story has some truth in it,it may suffer from the same type of romanticism. Lyanna stood up for him,defended him,took him home nursed his wounds and he hoped to crown her QOLAB himself.Maybe in a bit of gratituide but it could be a little colored too.At this point the most accurate blow by blow account of what happen would probably come fromthe Weirwoods.Info without bias.

The reed story has a lot more than some truth I'd say. But that's a matter of perspective. As far as Howland's hope to crown Lyanna, he might have after all...if he skinchanged into Rhaegar LOL. This seems the only viable alternative, albeit crackpot, if Rhaegar himself did not seek to win some affection from Lyanna.

I'm with you though, on the weirwoods being the only unbiased window available. But at this point, the KotLT story is as close as it gets.

[Voice]

So the hippie dippie Starchild Arthur Dayne made Lyanna Stark his sweet little blue winter rose Flower Child, far out man. :smoking:

And the realm went to hell in a handbasket.

I don't buy it, at all, but I must say that even Jaime and Barristan support the idea. Jaime sheathed his sword in the most inappropriate of manners, and Barristan would jumped into Ashara's bed if he ever had the chance.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

No no no you guys, it had nothing to do with winning. Rhaegar staged the tourney to have a council and meet with the lords. But then Aerys tags along, and Rhaegar is closely watched. He can't go missing for an hour or two without someone noticing. Enter Arthur Dayne. In addition to his own matches, Dayne also jousts in some of Rhaegar's- allowing the real Rhaegar to slip away and meet with potential allies.

The winning was irrelevant (until it wasn't) and only a side effect of choosing Ser Arthur, the best knight in the realm, as his stand-in.

Well, sort of. The larger event - the gathering itself - surely had some larger purpose than simply an opportunity for Prince Rhae-Rhae to knock some knights in the dirt. That said - if the Prince was trying to build political alliances, then he needed to put forth an image of power and success. And in that context, if he decided to enroll in the joust at all... then you better bet he had a plan to win.

[wolfmaid7]

So, on the Arthur Dayne front, let's talk about The Soiled Knight in AFFC. This is Arys Oakheart's sole POV chapter. This is the only POV chapter we get from an active member of the KG who isn't Jaime or Barristan (who's Queensguard anyhow). Now, I am inclined to believe that GRRM included this one chapter for a reason, and the reason is pretty obvious.

The entire central thrust (excuse the pun) of said chapter is about a KG having a torrid love affair in Dorne with Arianne Martell. Now, we know how the folks of Dorne feel about paramours. They are very accepting of the whole concept. (Ser Arthur, is, of course, himself a Dornishman, I'll remind you at this point.) Arys is racked with guilt over his sexual activities.

There is a very clear (false) distinction drawn between the sloppy, dishonest, dead eyed modern KG, your Kingslayers, Boros Blounts, Meryn Trant, Mandon Moore, the Hound, et. al. and the sharp, noble pristine paragons that were the KG of Aerys. Arthur Dayne, the finest knight who ever lived. Barristan Selmy, the very image of the warrior, Gerold Hightower, Lewyn Martell, etc. etc. And Arys has bought into this myth that Back In My Day, the KG meant something! He is afraid he will fail to live up to their impossible standards. It's hero worship, plain and simple. And yet, Arianne Martell smacks him back to reality.

They go on about it for a while...

The denial is strong with this one. But here comes the real gobsmacker...

What I'm getting at is, the KG are just men. They're human. Always have been, always will be. Is it so inconceivable that Arthur Dayne, the finest knight Ned Stark ever saw, a Dornishman raised in a sexually permissive culture, fell in love with a pretty northern maid, and didn't see anything wrong with a little love on the side? What harm could ever come from love?

Since Dornishmen don't define their honor by who they sleep with, all Westeros needs is a little peace and love. So the hippie dippie Starchild Arthur Dayne made Lyanna Stark his sweet little blue winter rose Flower Child, far out man. :smoking:

And the realm went to hell in a handbasket.

The warrior girl is exactly what i was going for and actually i mentioned when speaking of what Lya got from the song a few Heresies a back .I for one thing it's exactly that. Lyanna is trapped in a role that she didn't want to play.She may not have wanted to be a lady but a Knight.Hence the unrealized dream statement i made that is a Ghost it is a regret. " Why wasn't i born a boy," is a regret and unrealistic but life aint fair.

Umm I'd say he does it's how they "choose" to see the event and if they chose to see his action as a love struck Martyr that is how they chose to see it. They got the same BS story Robert told. Ray Ray abducted Lyanna,but they chose to turn it into.Ray Ray loved Lyanna it's the same thing.

I'm not saying it doesn't in this tale it seems TKOTLT was not Lyanna which is interesting.That's the piece that stands out to me.Him Skinchanging into Rhaegar to crown Lyanna while there is precedence of people jumping peoples bones ( pun intended) i don't know that's cans of worms ontop of cans of worms.

[Matthew.]

I don't buy it, at all, but I must say that even Jaime and Barristan support the idea. Jaime sheathed his sword in the most inappropriate of manners, and Barristan would jumped into Ashara's bed if he ever had the chance.

I'm not sold on the idea, but at the least there's a text-based case to be made for Arthur Dayne potentially being present with Lyanna during her disappearance, as well as potential plot payoff for making Jon a half Dayne, depending on what the story is with Dawn.

The biggest problem I have is largely subjective--the text has done so little to highlight the story of House Dayne, or even Arthur himself, whereas the story of House Targaryen's fall looms large over the modern political setting, so as a reader I have no reason (for now) to be particularly invested in Arthur Dayne. Of course, as far as my own emotional investment goes, I still hope that Ned will turn out to be Jon's father :dunno:

[PrettyPig]

Another random thought about Arthur Dayne as a tourney stand-in:

"his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."

If Arthur basically helped Rhaegar cheat and someone discovered this, House Dayne would become House Mud. That's a big stain for a young maiden who may have been in the market for a noble husband.

Perhaps we've been looking at this all wrong, and the man who "dishonored" her was her own brother....and it had nothing to do with a baby.

[King Tyrion XX]

They're the rebels now. Robert has ascended the throne, and men must pay homage to him. Ned makes it clear that he's willing to accept a surrender. And as we see, it's the KG who draw their blades first. They're the ones who initiate the duel, not Ned and his men. They created that fight.

Exactly.

Not really. As I said upthread, the Prince's Pass is the way into Dorne. Only Skyreach and Kingsgrave, castles south of the TOJ, are sworn to House Martell. Dorne thus begins at those castles. So if Ned brought his army to the TOJ, but no further, then he didn't bring them into Dorne.

The only time we actually have Ned in Dorne is when he visits Starfall. If he doesn't bring his army there, he didn't bring them into Dorne.

I simply meant that Jaime is the only known person that we can place as having talked with him. Barristan was one of his commanders at the Trident so they likely talked, but we don't know that for sure.

In fact, we have no idea if Barristan and Rhaegar ever talked UNTIL the Trident

Barristan and Darry had been sent out to gather the remnants of the Battle of the Bells army. We have a second army that's meeting Rhaegar at the Trident, so the logical conclusion is that this army is Barristan and Darry's army. Which means that Rhaegar wouldn't have talked to Barristan until right before the battle, not weeks or months before.

So in terms of absolutes, Jaime is our only living source for Rhaegar upon his return from wherever he was.

I did my best. I still post there, but I'd rather post with people who are willing to discuss alternative views.I mean, I have a 9 page Word document of all the evidence against R+L=J that I could think of, so it's not exactly like the theory is as solid as they claim :dunno:

1st bold: could this be why GRRM answered that there aren't rebel armies in Dorne? Because Robert didn't consider them rebels?

2nd bold: RLJ theory itself is incredibly flimsy. Add in what the Faithful do to make Jon the rightful heir to the IT etc and the theory is so weak it can't fight its way out of stale air.

[markg171]

So, on the Arthur Dayne front, let's talk about The Soiled Knight in AFFC. This is Arys Oakheart's sole POV chapter. This is the only POV chapter we get from an active member of the KG who isn't Jaime or Barristan (who's Queensguard anyhow). Now, I am inclined to believe that GRRM included this one chapter for a reason, and the reason is pretty obvious.

The entire central thrust (excuse the pun) of said chapter is about a KG having a torrid love affair in Dorne with Arianne Martell. Now, we know how the folks of Dorne feel about paramours. They are very accepting of the whole concept. (Ser Arthur, is, of course, himself a Dornishman, I'll remind you at this point.) Arys is racked with guilt over his sexual activities.

There is a very clear (false) distinction drawn between the sloppy, dishonest, dead eyed modern KG, your Kingslayers, Boros Blounts, Meryn Trant, Mandon Moore, the Hound, et. al. and the sharp, noble pristine paragons that were the KG of Aerys. Arthur Dayne, the finest knight who ever lived. Barristan Selmy, the very image of the warrior, Gerold Hightower, Lewyn Martell, etc. etc. And Arys has bought into this myth that Back In My Day, the KG meant something! He is afraid he will fail to live up to their impossible standards. It's hero worship, plain and simple. And yet, Arianne Martell smacks him back to reality.

They go on about it for a while...

The denial is strong with this one. But here comes the real gobsmacker...

What I'm getting at is, the KG are just men. They're human. Always have been, always will be. Is it so inconceivable that Arthur Dayne, the finest knight Ned Stark ever saw, a Dornishman raised in a sexually permissive culture, fell in love with a pretty northern maid, and didn't see anything wrong with a little love on the side? What harm could ever come from love?

Since Dornishmen don't define their honor by who they sleep with, all Westeros needs is a little peace and love. So the hippie dippie Starchild Arthur Dayne made Lyanna Stark his sweet little blue winter rose Flower Child, far out man. :smoking:

And the realm went to hell in a handbasket.

Well we should note that Ned only bases his opinion on Arthur based on his military prowess. As we've seen, he's only ever been in danger twice in a fight: with Bronze Royce and Arthur. Royce obviously isn't a knight so if Ned had to pick who the best knight, it's not inconceivable that he would pick the only knight who had him in trouble in a fight to be the best knight possible

[Voice]

I'm not sold on the idea, but at the least there's a text-based case to be made for Arthur Dayne potentially being present with Lyanna during her disappearance, as well as potential plot payoff for making Jon a half Dayne, depending on what the story is with Dawn.

The biggest problem I have is largely subjective--the text has done so little to highlight the story of House Dayne, or even Arthur himself, whereas the story of House Targaryen's fall looms large over the modern political setting, so as a reader I have no reason (for now) to be particularly invested in Arthur Dayne. Of course, as far as my own emotional investment goes, I still hope that Ned will turn out to be Jon's father :dunno:

True enough, Dayne is of little import when it comes down to it. I'm aware of the fanfare surrounding Dawn, but it still might be just another sword. Jon could be the son of Winter-fell and Star-fall, but I'm not sure what to make of that. Though the names and First Men parallels are nice, I don't see much potential there for the plot. Particularly as "the secret of Jon's true parentage" has been built up this long for "the last book."

That being said, it is entirely possible GRRM decided to go with an anticlimactic ending, and that Jon is only tangentially related to it. I disagree of course, but I can see how others arrive at such conclusions.

[markg171]

1st bold: could this be why GRRM answered that there aren't rebel armies in Dorne? Because Robert didn't consider them rebels?

2nd bold: RLJ theory itself is incredibly flimsy. Add in what the Faithful do to make Jon the rightful heir to the IT etc and the theory is so weak it can't fight its way out of stale air.

Well as I noted, Dorne only extends to Skyreach. The TOJ isn't actually part of Dorne. The princes pass is the way into Dorne. It's not actually Dorne.

As to your second point: ya I mean I have a giant document of everything that says it's not true. If you guys want I can post it online