Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn

[MizasterJ]

I am starting to understand that, In the beginning of Time as best they understand it on Planetos: the Maiden Maid of Light which is another interpretation for the Lord of Light: R'hllor. and the the Lion of Night aka The Great Other came together and had the child known as The God-on-Earth who became the legendary first ruler of the mythic Great Empire of the Dawn and that was the beginning of civilization from which everyone is descended.

When the Bloodstone emperor betrayed his sister the Amethyst Empress this is basically the same story of when Cain betrayed his brother Abel and sin entered the world. So this is what seemingly caused the long night: an unholy betrayal of kin.

[BalerionTheCat]

I really don't think we should confuse the Maiden with R'hllor. Not if Asshai is the stronghold of R'hllor. The WoIaF describing Asshai:

... it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy.

BTW, I have to read this thread about gods.

Concerning the 1st time frame. It would be useful to determine when the Stone fell. Not before the God-on-Earth departure, I think (between 1. & 2. ?). Because before, all must have been perfect. But before the end of 4. If it was early, the Stone would be the source of all corruptions. Giving a causality to the following events (what I prefer). If later, something else initiated the trouble. Then someone, the BSE, some fanatics priests, or R'hllor himself made the Stone to fall.

And we should also try to place the foundation of Asshai. Was Asshai built after the Stone fell, close to it? And built by the Stone worshipers (more logical if the Stone fell early) Or was Asshai built before? And the Stone was directed there by its invoker?

In another, minor point: The God-on-Earth ruled for 10,000 years, if the legend is true:

For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Then there had been six emperors. The first ruled for 1,000 years, the following for less. The total duration should be less than 6,000. But maybe not much less. Anyway, it would be a long time. Enough to build foreign empires and make old cities of Yeen and Asshai.

[LmL]

Well I ag

I really don't think we should confuse the Maiden with R'hllor. Not if Asshai is the stronghold of R'hllor. The WoIaF describing Asshai:

... it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy.

BTW, I have to read this thread about gods.

Concerning the 1st time frame. It would be useful to determine when the Stone fell. Not before the God-on-Earth departure, I think (between 1. & 2. ?). Because before, all must have been perfect. But before the end of 4. If it was early, the Stone would be the source of all corruptions. Giving a causality to the following events (what I prefer). If later, something else initiated the trouble. Then someone, the BSE, some fanatics priests, or R'hllor himself made the Stone to fall.

And we should also try to place the foundation of Asshai. Was Asshai built after the Stone fell, close to it? And built by the Stone worshipers (more logical if the Stone fell early) Or was Asshai built before? And the Stone was directed there by its invoker?

In another, minor point: The God-on-Earth ruled for 10,000 years, if the legend is true:

For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Then there had been six emperors. The first ruled for 1,000 years, the following for less. The total duration should be less than 6,000. But maybe not much less. Anyway, it would be a long time. Enough to build foreign empires and make old cities of Yeen and Asshai.

Well I have a huge, giant essay on this very topic that is in the final revision process, and I agree with a lot of what you;re saying here, but I do want to point out that the corruption began to seep in long before the Bloodstone Emperor, moon destruction, and Long Night occurred. TWOAIF says that every reign after the God on Earth was shorter and (i forgot the wording) less awesome, and then it even lists a version of the seven deadly sins as being committed by the GEotD citizens BEFORE the blood betrayal. So the GEotD wasn’t a perfect utopia, even though they were great and glorious. George of course wouldn’t make up something as unrealistic as perfect society, of course (not that you are suggesting that), even a legendary dawn age culture like the GEotD.

[LmL]

I think the Maiden and the Lion of Night are both aspects of the sun. Some cultures create a different deity or aspect of the sun god to account for “wherever the sun goes at night,” or simply a personification of the night itself. During the Long Night, the Lion of Night was seen to be made powerful - so it wasn’t referring the destroyed moon, which was destroyed, or the existing moon, which would have been very hard to see because of the cloud cover. The sun, however, would have appeared faintly in the sky, some kind of dingy purple and grey in a dark sky. Like the Soundgarden video, more or less. Point being, this darkened sun would have likely been seen as an empowered Lion of Night, a night sun in a sky of darkness. Kind of awesome, really.

[LmL]

Durran D, you'll notice that "Black Hole Sun" was released in...

Wait for it....

Wait...

1994. Heh.

[Durran Durrandon]

I am starting to understand that, In the beginning of Time as best they understand it on Planetos: the Maiden Maid of Light which is another interpretation for the Lord of Light: R'hllor. and the the Lion of Night aka The Great Other came together and had the child known as The God-on-Earth who became the legendary first ruler of the mythic Great Empire of the Dawn and that was the beginning of civilization from which everyone is descended.

When the Bloodstone emperor betrayed his sister the Amethyst Empress this is basically the same story of when Cain betrayed his brother Abel and sin entered the world. So this is what seemingly caused the long night: an unholy betrayal of kin.

So, I start with the assumption that there is yin and there is yang, ice and fire.

“If ice can burn,” said Jojen in his solemn voice, “then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one.” ( SoS 368)

This is the Tao of Reed.

All personifications that make these forces into gods in opposition to one another, or make them into gods at all are inventions of human religions.

The fall from the Garden as it is, is not just gaining the knowledge of good and evil, but falsely applying it to balanced forces and championing one over the other.

The Red Priests seek to create eternal summer, the Long Day, which would be an equally hellish nightmare to the Long Night, complete with shadow Others. They don't even understand that is what they are working for, but I think the parallels between Melisandre and the Night's Queen are clear enough: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[LmL]

"The Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire is recognizable by a 'cruller' around the eyes (making a loop over the nose), jaguar ears, and jaguar fangs. He personifies the number Seven, which is associated with the day Ak'b'al[pronunciation?] ('Night'). Usually called 'Jaguar God of the Underworld', he has been assumed to be the 'Night Sun' - the shape supposedly taken by the sun (Kinich Ahau) during his nightly journey through the underworld - for reason of having the large eyes and filed incisor that also occur with the sun deity, and of sometimes evincing a k 'in infix. The deity's hypothetical aspect of a nocturnal sun (that is, a subterranean fire) should conceivably be connected to his proven association with terrestrial fire. He is often represented on incense burners and connected to fire rituals,[1] while his 'cruller' may represent a cord used in making fire with a stick (Taube). Moreover, vases in codical style show him, captured, about to be burnt with torches. The nocturnal sun hypothesis is complicated by this very incident, and even more so by the fact that the fiery jaguar deity is identified with a star (or, perhaps, a constellation or planet).[2] The god's other sphere of influence is war, witness for example the stereotypical presence of his face on war shields."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_jaguar_gods

[Durran Durrandon]

Durran D, you'll notice that "Black Hole Sun" was released in...

Wait for it....

Wait...

1994. Heh.

One of the few Sound Garden songs I will crank up when it comes on the radio . . . when my wife isn't in the car. It's not her fault. She is still a little PTSD from working at Hot Topic in the early 90's.

[Durran Durrandon]

I really don't think we should confuse the Maiden with R'hllor. Not if Asshai is the stronghold of R'hllor. The WoIaF describing Asshai:

... it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike. The nights are very black in Asshai, all agree, and even the brightest days of summer are somehow grey and gloomy.

BTW, I have to read this thread about gods.

Concerning the 1st time frame. It would be useful to determine when the Stone fell. Not before the God-on-Earth departure, I think (between 1. & 2. ?). Because before, all must have been perfect. But before the end of 4. If it was early, the Stone would be the source of all corruptions. Giving a causality to the following events (what I prefer). If later, something else initiated the trouble. Then someone, the BSE, some fanatics priests, or R'hllor himself made the Stone to fall.

And we should also try to place the foundation of Asshai. Was Asshai built after the Stone fell, close to it? And built by the Stone worshipers (more logical if the Stone fell early) Or was Asshai built before? And the Stone was directed there by its invoker?

In another, minor point: The God-on-Earth ruled for 10,000 years, if the legend is true:

For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Then there had been six emperors. The first ruled for 1,000 years, the following for less. The total duration should be less than 6,000. But maybe not much less. Anyway, it would be a long time. Enough to build foreign empires and make old cities of Yeen and Asshai.

So this is the kind of thing I'm looking for right now in terms of addressing time frames and time lines. So, thanks. I'm not assesing right now, just absorbing.

[Durran Durrandon]

"The Jaguar God of Terrestrial Fire is recognizable by a 'cruller' around the eyes (making a loop over the nose), jaguar ears, and jaguar fangs. He personifies the number Seven, which is associated with the day Ak'b'al[pronunciation?] ('Night'). Usually called 'Jaguar God of the Underworld', he has been assumed to be the 'Night Sun' - the shape supposedly taken by the sun (Kinich Ahau) during his nightly journey through the underworld - for reason of having the large eyes and filed incisor that also occur with the sun deity, and of sometimes evincing a k 'in infix. The deity's hypothetical aspect of a nocturnal sun (that is, a subterranean fire) should conceivably be connected to his proven association with terrestrial fire. He is often represented on incense burners and connected to fire rituals,[1] while his 'cruller' may represent a cord used in making fire with a stick (Taube). Moreover, vases in codical style show him, captured, about to be burnt with torches. The nocturnal sun hypothesis is complicated by this very incident, and even more so by the fact that the fiery jaguar deity is identified with a star (or, perhaps, a constellation or planet).[2] The god's other sphere of influence is war, witness for example the stereotypical presence of his face on war shields."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_jaguar_gods

So one way to look at this is as a unity. The Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of the Night are both the Sun. The Lion of the Night is the sun as it passes through the underworld at Night.

[BalerionTheCat]

Well I ag

Well I have a huge, giant essay on this very topic that is in the final revision process, and I agree with a lot of what you;re saying here, but I do want to point out that the corruption began to seep in long before the Bloodstone Emperor, moon destruction, and Long Night occurred. TWOAIF says that every reign after the God on Earth was shorter and (i forgot the wording) less awesome, and then it even lists a version of the seven deadly sins as being committed by the GEotD citizens BEFORE the blood betrayal. So the GEotD wasn’t a perfect utopia, even though they were great and glorious. George of course wouldn’t make up something as unrealistic as perfect society, of course (not that you are suggesting that), even a legendary dawn age culture like the GEotD.

Yes, the trouble began with the six emperors following the God-on-Earth. And it was worse with each of them. So it started with the first or the second:

yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it.

But I would believe it was perfect with the God-on-Earth. BTW, we could not ask less of a god ruling on Earth:

flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth

Ok, it is not realistic. And probably not everyone was an angel. But it would have been better than even during the best of the Targaryens kings; a true justice, no petty wars, or quickly put to end... But after all the crap GRRM put everyone in, I would believe he would give humankind another golden age. And possibly for the same duration. What would be the purpose of giving that for only one lifetime? And a god starting the line of kings would make sense. Because the kings pretend (falsely) to rule by god's grace. Easier to say that if your ancestor was a god.

Of course, you could say that each emperor was in fact a dynasty. But that is not what I think. I would have little choice, if GRRM was not questioning death. But as he is taking great liberties with life and death, I don't think it would be inconsistent for him to consider the eventuality long lives. See the Waif for example.

[Associate Maester]

I am starting to understand that, In the beginning of Time as best they understand it on Planetos: the Maiden Maid of Light which is another interpretation for the Lord of Light: R'hllor. and the the Lion of Night aka The Great Other came together and had the child known as The God-on-Earth who became the legendary first ruler of the mythic Great Empire of the Dawn and that was the beginning of civilization from which everyone is descended.

When the Bloodstone emperor betrayed his sister the Amethyst Empress this is basically the same story of when Cain betrayed his brother Abel and sin entered the world. So this is what seemingly caused the long night: an unholy betrayal of kin.

I see absolutely no evidence or reason to conflate The Lion of Night with the Great Other of R'hllorianism and Maiden Made of Light with R'hllor. We know less than nothing about the actual origins and formation of R'hllorianism. While they may share some common mythos I would argue there is no evidence for that. Martin has created a plurality of gods and religions.

[Blazfemur]

no such thing as a 'reborn.' prophecies or otherwise.

[LmL]

no such thing as a 'reborn.' prophecies or otherwise.

Think about them as archetypal rolls which must be played and replayed until cosmic harmony can be reestablished, at which point perhaps the universe can move on.

I don't think it's a literal reincarnation. I think the word reborn is being used loosely here.

[LmL]

So one way to look at this is as a unity. The Maiden-Made-of-Light and the Lion of the Night are both the Sun. The Lion of the Night is the sun as it passes through the underworld at Night.

Yep I think that is it exactly. The Jaguar isn't even that different from a lion, and the Mayans certainly loved them some jade and gold.

There would have been two moons at the time of the great empire, so the moon as the lion of night doesn't really make sense.

Furthermore, I think we can extrapolate from their interpretation of the sun as female, that they may have been, if not matriarchal, perhaps more gender-equal then modern patriarchal culture in Westeros and most of the world.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Yep I think that is it exactly. The Jaguar isn't even that different from a lion, and the Mayans certainly loved them some jade and gold.

There would have been two moons at the time of the great empire, so the moon as the lion of night doesn't really make sense.

Furthermore, I think we can extrapolate from their interpretation of the sun as female, that they may have been, if not matriarchal, perhaps more gender-equal then modern patriarchal culture in Westeros and most of the world.

Something I've noticed but haven't hunted down specific quotes/examples for is that, even on Planetos in its current broken form, societies with more gender equality are better off. Dorne and the Vale, both frequently ruled by women, tend to be the least impacted by war. The Iron Isles, the most fiercely male-dominant region, is also the poorest. Highgarden seems to have a fairly high tolerance for powerful women and alternative sexuality, and it is probably in the top-3 most wealthy houses.

Ditto in Essos. Qarth and Volantis, the most wealthy and powerful cities, don't seem to care much if you are a man or a woman so long as you are part of the ruling class. Braavos doesn't seem to have a problem with powerful women, and it prospers. Pentos on the other hand has female slaves, marries off daughters as status symbols, and has an annual ritual "deflowering" of two young women. And lo and behold, Pentos is largely under the thumb of Braavos.

GRRM seems to be telling us that gender equality leads to more peace and plenty, at least in his world. Would make sense if the most peaceful, wealthy, and powerful civilization also valued women equally with men.

Gods, I hope the restoration of gender equality turns out to be an important part of the ASOIAF end-game. That would be all of my fantasy fantasies come true.

[LmL]

Something I've noticed but haven't hunted down specific quotes/examples for is that, even on Planetos in its current broken form, societies with more gender equality are better off. Dorne and the Vale, both frequently ruled by women, tend to be the least impacted by war. The Iron Isles, the most fiercely male-dominant region, is also the poorest. Highgarden seems to have a fairly high tolerance for powerful women and alternative sexuality, and it is probably in the top-3 most wealthy houses.

Ditto in Essos. Qarth and Volantis, the most wealthy and powerful cities, don't seem to care much if you are a man or a woman so long as you are part of the ruling class. Braavos doesn't seem to have a problem with powerful women, and it prospers. Pentos on the other hand has female slaves, marries off daughters as status symbols, and has an annual ritual "deflowering" of two young women. And lo and behold, Pentos is largely under the thumb of Braavos.

GRRM seems to be telling us that gender equality leads to more peace and plenty, at least in his world. Would make sense if the most peaceful, wealthy, and powerful civilization also valued women equally with men.

Gods, I hope the restoration of gender equality turns out to be an important part of the ASOIAF end-game. That would be all of my fantasy fantasies come true.

I really think this is a thing, and one of my upcoming essays will be focusing on several moon goddesses which I believe George has drawn from to create his two magic moons (my theory anyway). It’s going to deal with matriarchal vs patriarchal society, the Seven, and the role of women in patriarchal societies. Should be a lot of fun, and not controversial at all.

But fuck it, that’s what I’m going to write about my interpretation of what George is doing, and I think he’s thought about these issues and woven them into his world building, so they bear scrutiny. :) I’m sure we can all put on our bog-boy pants and big-girl pants and deal with it like adults (and mature teenagers, we know you’re out there)

To find matriarchal societies in abundance, you have to go back quite a long way in history. It’s been patriarchy for thousands of years on earth... its so ingrained that people don’t even stop to examine what it means. People hear these words and just tense up, like”ooh, someone is about to get offended,” but really, it’s a little silly to not talk about the roles or woman and men, who defines them and how, and what effects that has on society.

I’ll stop here so as not to derail the thread totally... I’m very excited to write about Ishtar, one of my favorite goddess forms, so I’ll save it for that.

her eyes are amethysts

[Durran Durrandon]

GRRM seems to be telling us that gender equality leads to more peace and plenty, at least in his world. Would make sense if the most peaceful, wealthy, and powerful civilization also valued women equally with men.

He certainly had attempted to subvert every patriarchal trope in fantasy literature. Let's see where he takes it.

[joluoto2]

I don't thin anyone is anyone reborn.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

I don't thin anyone is anyone reborn.

So AAR is one of the Manderlies?