Daenerys is the Amethyst Empress Reborn

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Bloody good post, Durran.

[Durran Durrandon]

I guess, in very basic terms, this moral ambiguity plays out like this:

• if the Azor Ahai story is the same story as the BSE/AE/Blood Betrayal story, then it seems that Nissa Nissa was betrayed, rather than giving her life willingly
• this suggests Azor Ahai was "the bad guy" in the story
• but if we take that back to the point of the Azor Ahai story, that betrayal (of his wife, resulting in her death) seemed to be a vital component in the forging of a weapon to fight for the Dawn [at this point, I'm not prepared to agree that Azor Ahai didn't "save to world" in a real sense, but I 100% agree that he wasn't the shining beacon of pure light that the stories make him out to be]

It's very Martin-esque to first give us this sad and gripping story of love and sacrifice (Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa), then force us to consider that the sacrifice was unwilling and involved a betrayal (BSE/AE/Blood Betrayal), to finally make us acknowledge that the world was ultimately saved by what the story suggest was done: the conflict for the reader to resolve being whether the ends ever justify the means (which is maybe the ultimate example of how you might explore the "heart in conflict with itself" question).

Yes, to all of that. My working analogy is BSE = Darth Vader. Sure he did a lot of horrible things , but he is also save the hero and killed the Emperor.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

What is interesting about Nissa / Am Empress' murder is that if the comet had not of hit the fire moon, it may have hit earth instead. So, Nissa did end up saving out bacon, even if she was "murdered." Ax

for AA, I think his redemption came at the end. Or at least, thats what I think the text is indicating. His sword was eventually the Dragonsteel of the LH, I think. But I don't know if he was the LH or not.

I was swayed by Radio Westeros' analysis of how Old Nan's story of the LH's journey stops and is then picked up by Sallador Saan's Lightbringer tale. This suggested that it's the same story, same person. I still kind of think this is possible, but there's a huge proviso as to what this might mean.

I think it's crucial to remember that the retellings of the story are just as important as the original story itself; how many times it's been retold, and by whom - because the story changes slightly every time, to fit the situation in which it's being told (it's basically the evolution of oral history). So it's unsurprising Old Nan's version has the LH seeking out the CotF, given the connection between the First Men and the CotF; just as it's unsurprising that the Red Priests' Lightbringer version of the story has Azor Ahai working in the temple's sacred fires (ie it's suggested Azor Ahai is either a priest of R'hllor or a follower).

The way the story is retold tells us stuff about who's retelling it, and the way they're seeking to reinterpret the story (which is a hint to how they may be seeking to influence our story, the story we're reading in ASOIAF). To the First Men, it's a story of survival against all odds in a terrible cold and darkness; to the Red Priests, it's about the purity of sacrificing that which you love most, for a greater good (for your god).

So I guess even if LH/AA was the same person, the stories have diverged. But I think we can still reconstruct glimpses of the original characters, based on what each retelling of the story might have wanted specifically to change or suppress. Consider the Red Priests, and their pet hates. Melissandre's "rotten onion" speech, and her aversion to the idea of anything imperfect, may have been hints to the nature of Azor Ahai himself (among other things): he was a half-rotten onion; a grey man, neither black nor white (which is what she accuses Davos of).

It would be very fitting for the Red Priests to have as their messianic figure someone whose actions were deeply ambiguous, but whom the religion has reinterpreted as the perfect hero: because its dualistic nature and black-or-white thinking make it impossible to do anything else. That's how their version of the LH/AA story is told - through a lens that rejects moral ambiguity, and is able to justify and celebrate horrible acts (like driving a sword through your wife's heart) done for "a greater good"; and that's exactly how they're seeking to influence the story we're reading.

[LmL]

snip

It would be very fitting for the Red Priests to have as their messianic figure someone whose actions were deeply ambiguous, but whom the religion has reinterpreted as the perfect hero: because its dualistic nature and black-or-white thinking make it impossible to do anything else. That's how their version of the LH/AA story is told - through a lens that rejects moral ambiguity, and is able to justify and celebrate horrible acts (like driving a sword through your wife's heart) done for "a greater good"; and that's exactly how they're seeking to influence the story we're reading.

I especially agree with this last part :cheers:

[Ser Greg of House House]

Very interesting post. I'm not such an specialist, so it's hard for me to believe it all (with my limited knowledge I'm not yet convinced that that's really the reason for the magical climate etc). But I'll keep an eye open for gems from now on!

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I shared your theory on my facebook page and linked the original post (yours) to give you credit, a lot of people liked it and we really admire how you got those things we usually don't pay deep attention.

Really cool theory and I am buying it :laugh:

[Durran Durrandon]

I shared your theory on my facebook page and linked the original post (yours) to give you credit, a lot of people liked it and we really admire how you got those things we usually don't pay deep attention.

Really cool theory and I am buying it :laugh:

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[jlk7e]

It sounds less like 'love' and more like 'casual dismissal of something you haven't tried very hard to understand,' but whateves. If that's how you roll, that's how you roll. :dunce:

Can't it be both? But, I mean, yeah, maybe I'm being unfair. It may be a great theory! But come on, you surely must see that these kind of titles are just hilariously obscure.

@jlk7e I don't think anyone is saying that "someone is actually such and such" but more that they're looking into the parallels between our current characters and those characters from the stories of their history/lore, and analyzing the story in the sense that we often say history repeats itself and the events in life are cyclical. Therefore, using the history given to us in the world book we can analyze these parallels.(which in my opinion was released with a purpose, otherwise it's a long amount of time to dedicate to something without the actual story being completed yet, even if he had help writing it)

I'm sorry if I got this off topic.

I'm sure there's potential thematic relevance. There's also that the story has gotten completely out of Martin's control and he loves procrastinating and world-building and procrastinating by world-building.

[TheAssassin]

Before I post my thoughts, I need to make a few primer comments:

1. (Anyone with children will especially get this.) When your child does something that you don't initially think is wrong, it is natural for you to defend your child's choice. If, however, you come to see that what your child did was indeed wrong, you must never abandon reason for the sake of defending your child. Both you and your child will benefit from accepting the wrongs done and striving to fix them going forward.

The same can be said of everyone's theories herein. I know a lot of work was done putting them together. Don't let your pride get in the way of reason.

2) We, the readers, cannot "prove" anything in this story. Pet peeve, yes, but I think it is important to stay away from phrases like "I proved that because of such and such, x=y".

3) Excellent post, Durran Durrandon.

4) I have read most of Lucifer Means Lightbringer's theories. I agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. Good job and keep up the hard work. Don't be offended when I disagree with you.

5) Most of my comments are in reference to comments made within this thread. It would be impossible to multi-quite all of them as they span many pages and are interrelated.

6) I like to play devil's advocate, even with myself.

So it begins...

The Bloodstone Emperor as Azor Ahai.

Why would there be no records of an individual as prolific as the Bloodstone Emperor being the same as another equally, if not more, prolific individual such as Azor Ahai, of whom there are many tales and names. The only time the Bloodstone Emperor is mentioned in the same breath as Azor Ahai (and his many other names) is as the antithesis thereof. What evidence do we have that the Bloodstone Emperor made the switch from someone so evil as to cause the Long Night (in a sense) to being someone so virtuous as to end it?

The Daynes as Proto-Valyrians

We have no evidence whatsoever that the Daynes had purple/violet/amethyst eyes going back to the Dawn Age. We know that that two contemporary Daynes, Ashara and Gerold, had/have violet eyes. I believe I read somewhere that no Targaryen ever married into the Dayne family (the reverse is true, though). However, we cannot discount the thought that a Valyrian may have easily married into a House as ancient and noble as the Daynes during the 5,000 years prior to Westeros being exposed to the Targaryens. I know the Valyrians are said to have never been interested in Westeros, but that's Valyria as an empire. To say that in 5000 years, no Dayne ever reproduced with a Valyrian is illogical.

However, to play devil's advocate with myself, why would no other house have had such interactions with Valyrians? Why are there no Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc. with purple eyes? Simple enough, proximity, time, and chance. Proximity: Starfall is closer to Valyria than many of the other cities in Westeros, and very easy to get to from Valyria. Time: Perhaps there were Valyrian-Starks (aside from Jon), but perhaps their purple eyes were diluted out over time. Any mixing of the genes into the Dayne pool would have needed to occur recently enough, but not so recent as for it to require the Valyrian(s) to be Targaryen, i.e. the mix happened before the Doom. It could have been many subsequent marriages with Valyrians that introduced the purple eyes to the Daynes. Chance: The Daynes just happened to be the lucky house that got in bed with the Valyrians.

If you can suggest that this trait could survive 10,000 years, then you must accept that this trait could survive 500 years. I just cannot accept, given the evidence that we have, that just because two current Daynes have purple eyes, that their family possessed purple eyes for 10,000+ years.

Quaithe as a member of the Church of Starry Wisdom

I resoundingly disagree that there is any association between Quaithe and the Church of Starry Wisdom. TWOIAF states that this religion is sinister and is closely associated with the Bloodstone Emperor's worship of a fallen black stone. The Bloodstone Emperor practiced dark arts, torture, necromancy, and cannibalism. All of these things are abhorred throughout most of the world. (Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar are said to practice dark arts so as to, in my opinion, tarnish their names. The sorcery they practice does not seem in line with the treacherous deeds of the BSE.)

So why would someone like Quaithe be an agent of the Church of Starry Wisdom unless she was evil? I guess we cannot say that she isn't evil but the only evidence that I've seen put forward that she is associated with the Church of Starry Wisdom is the reference of her mask of stars. Nothing else about her suggests "Church of Starry Wisdom" to me.

In fact, when I read the passages referring to her mask of stars/starlight, I instantly thought of Shiera Seastar. Shiera SeaSTAR. What other individual have we seen that has lived beyond their natural years, possesses magical/prophetic powers, and seems to have a deep interest in the more magical individuals of the story? Bloodraven. Just so happens that his lover/partner/close associate was/is Shiera Seastar. It makes a lot of sense to me that any reference to stars is to further the thought that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and not the CSW.

The Church of Starry Wisdom

Similarly, I've read too many comments regarding various characters and their supposed connections with the CSW. I think people need to be careful of whom they associate with the CSW. Really, the only things we know about the CSW is that it is a sinister religion that may have been founded by a treacherous, torturous, cannibalistic necromancer. I know that just because the founder was a cannibalistic necromancer doesn't mean that followers of the CSW are too. However, given that the only other piece of information about this religion is that it is a sinister religion, I don't think it is a stretch to believe that the followers are sinister as well.

I've read comments that state that the Church of the Starry Wisdom is the oldest religion on Planetos. This is patently false. We have a direct reference in the WOIAF that the BSE cast aside his gods to worship the black stone. The Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of the Night precede the black stone/CSW by at least 11,000 years (10,000 year reign of the God-on-Earth plus 1,000 year reign of the Pearl Emperor, plus all the reigns between the Pearl Emperor and the BSE, so any number of years less than 16,000). This means that this belief existed for more time before the Long Night, than any other belief that started concurrent with the Long Night. 11,000-16,000 years is a long time. I still see no reason to believe that Shiera Seastar is in any way related to the Church of Starry Wisdom.

Therefore, I don't think we can suggest such things as "Quaithe is obviously in league with the CSW because of her mask of stars" or "the Hightowers are members of the CSW because their sept is named the Starry Sept." I just think it's illogical to assume such things. If the CSW was more common and didn't have such a sinister and evil history, it might not be so illogical.

The Deep Ones

Similarly, I have seen too many comments regarding the Deep Ones. We are told from the WOIAF that the Deep Ones are said to be half man half fish and that there might have been an association between them and the Seastone Chair (never confirmed). It is also said that creatures from the sea may have been responsible for the eradication of the Mazemakers. Who is to say that they are the Deep Ones?

Again, I think it would be illogical to propose such drastic theories about the Deep Ones based on the exceedingly limited information we have about them. People have brought up the Lovecraftian Deep Ones, and while the Deep Ones on Planetos are similar in suggested appearance, we have no reason to believe they are sinister, evil, human-killing beings. We cannot (and this is a big deal for me) supplant lore from Planetos with lore from another universe. We know that GRRM gives homages to favored authors, but that in no way allows us to make suppositions based on the lore of other authors' universes. Lucifer Means Lightbringer and Lenabot have suggested/would agree with what I say about the Deep Ones and the Lovecraftian homages.

We know very little about the Deep Ones and the Church of Starry Wisdom. There are very few clues or allegories (if any) throughout the texts to suggest any grand theories concerning these. The Deep Ones cause the shattering of the Arm of Dorne and the Doom of Valyria? Two of the most cataclysmic events on the planet are credited to a race we know virtually nothing about based on...? The Hightowers, Quaithe, Bloodraven, Euron, elite R'hllorists, etc. are all members of the Church of Starry Wisdom, a church founded by the murderous, torturous, cannibalistic, necromancer emperor whose actions brought on the Long Night? Based on what evidence? Mentions of sorcery? Starry Septs? I need more evidence.

One of the only things that ties multiple places together with the CSW is the oily/greasy black stones in Asshai, Yeen, Pyke, and the Isle of Toads. These black stones seem unnatural. Something from the heavens or the depths, perhaps. We know that the BSE worshipped one of these stones that fell from the sky. It wouldn't be imprudent to suggest that the source of all these types of stone is from the second moon from LML's theory (which makes this a theory based on a theory).

As has been mentioned many times before, these are not made of the same material as the fused stone found in the pre-Valyrian labyrinth base of the tower in Oldtown (conjuring comparisons to the labyrinths of Lorath), the Five Forts, and the post-Valyrian walls of Volantis, Valyrian roads, etc. It makes enough sense to suggest that the Great Empire of the Dawn possessed the knowledge and means to craft the fused stones structures, similar to the Valyrians, going so far as to suggest that the Valyrians may be descendants of the GEotD.

This ties is with whether or not the BSE was the father of dragons. We know the Five Forts are said to have been built during the Pearl Emperor's reign. This means they predate the usurpation by the BSE. If dragons were involved in their creation, then the BSE cannot be the father of dragons.

Thoughts on the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night

The MMoL is considered to be the "good" god/goddess while the LoN is considered the "evil" god/goddess. They exist in harmony however. Mortals, however, do not exist in harmony. The LON is seen as a force of evil (hence the building of the Five Forts thousands of years before the Long Night). The LON came to punish the wicked during the LN much in the way Satan punishes the wicked in Christian theology. There are plenty of religions that believe in a negative, antithesis, opposite deity whose role it is to punish the wicked.

I think it is worth noting that the WOIAF refers to the Grey Waste as a freezing desert. A parallel between the Wall/LoAW and the Five Forts/Grey Waste is apparent.

[LmL]

Before I post my thoughts, I need to make a few primer comments:

1. (Anyone with children will especially get this.) When your child does something that you don't initially think is wrong, it is natural for you to defend your child's choice. If, however, you come to see that what your child did was indeed wrong, you must never abandon reason for the sake of defending your child. Both you and your child will benefit from accepting the wrongs done and striving to fix them going forward.

The same can be said of everyone's theories herein. I know a lot of work was done putting them together. Don't let your pride get in the way of reason.

Hey there The Assassin. I saw your comments here and I thought I would respond to them. Thanks for reading mine and Durran's essays, first off. Thanks for taking the time to comment, second. I totally agree with your statement here about finding the truth vs. protecting your baby. That's always my modus operandi - just trying to interpret what the text is saying. One of the best parts of making these theories and putting them up is the crowdsourced scrutiny and refinement. I'm absolutely positive I'm on tot something, and that the connections and patterns I am seeing are valid (as opposed to just patterns in the noise), but I may certainly be wrong about any given interpretation. That's why I enjoy putting these hypothesis out there for people to work with. My hope is that through team effort, we can suss out the truth.

If one wants their theory to be "right," then one needs to be willing to adapt it to whatever the best interpretation of the text seems to be.

Thus, my gratitude towards your participation. The theory doesn't get closer to the truth if people don't try to poke holes in it. :cheers:

2) We, the readers, cannot "prove" anything in this story. Pet peeve, yes, but I think it is important to stay away from phrases like "I proved that because of such and such, x=y".

Somewhat disagree. Yes, you can't "prove" anything, in an empirical sense, but that's basically irrelevant. We are supposed to figure things out. Is R+L=J "proven?" No, but most are satisfied that that is what George is telling us through the clues and metaphors. Personally, I feel confident in saying that there is about 100 times more evidence for the comet-hits-moon theory than R+L=J. George devotes entire chapters to creating sun/comet kills moon metaphors. In every book. When I am done with my series of essays, I am going to compile a list of all the sun kills moon metaphors... I am pretty sure I am over 30 right now.

To be fair, I believe your point is that we should all remain humble and remember that we don't really know for sure. I agree with that sentiment, and qualifying statements like "it seems that..." or "I believe the text is saying...." go a long way to not turning readers off. Nobody likes a know-it-all who is 100% sure of everything they say. So point taken.

Some people just go to far with the "you can't prove anything" stuff. This is a mystery - we are supposed to figure out the answer without being GIVEN the proof of the answer. That's the game. Play or don't; but some people like to run around telling everyone everything is just coincidence... I feel sorry for those people and their tiny imaginations.

3) Excellent post, Durran Durrandon.

4) I have read most of Lucifer Means Lightbringer's theories. I agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. Good job and keep up the hard work. Don't be offended when I disagree with you.

TY, TY...

5) Most of my comments are in reference to comments made within this thread. It would be impossible to multi-quite all of them as they span many pages and are interrelated.

6) I like to play devil's advocate, even with myself.

So it begins...

The Bloodstone Emperor as Azor Ahai.

Why would there be no records of an individual as prolific as the Bloodstone Emperor being the same as another equally, if not more, prolific individual such as Azor Ahai, of whom there are many tales and names. The only time the Bloodstone Emperor is mentioned in the same breath as Azor Ahai (and his many other names) is as the antithesis thereof. What evidence do we have that the Bloodstone Emperor made the switch from someone so evil as to cause the Long Night (in a sense) to being someone so virtuous as to end it?

I don't think "Azor Ahai" was ever a hero. I think the story of him being a good guy is simply false, likely made up to whitewash his image. I delved ingot the concept of Lucifer in my second essay to illustrate this idea, that deities can be perceived as good or evil by different people in different times. The Jehovah / El dynamic illustrates this as well.

It's possible that evil AA / the BSE became either the LH or NK, and managed some small redemption in his end. But this story would not be connected to the AA sot ores from the west - these would be the LH stories (or if you buy the idea of the NK as a peace negotiator who gave seed to the Others to make a peace pact, the NK story).

As I have shown in my third essay, the places who have a version of the AAstory are all quite depraved haunts of necromancy and dark magic. Nefer, Hyrkoon, Asshai, Yi Ti at times and to a lesser extent...

Everything we know about AA says he was a bad guy, imo. He stabbed his wife in a blood magic ritual to create a weapon - sorry, that's not hero stuff to me. Call it modern sensibilities or whatever, but no. Stabbing your wife = you are the bad guy, in my book. Thenwe have the people who want this guy to be reborn - the R'hllorists. All of their magic is more shadow than fire, which I believe reflects the corrupted state of the Shadow by Asshai.

The astronomy also says that AA was the bad guy, the one who caused the Long Night, because the sun killing the moon was the celestial event which triggered the long night. The story of AA matches this celestial scenario. Then we find ANOTHER story of a murder which led to the Long Night, and we also have the presence of a meteorite. This story, like the AA myth, comes from the far, far east.

I should probably limit my response here, as I have basically written a very long essay dedicated to proving AA = BSE and I don't want to quote the whole thing. I do however love this passage of ADWD and find it to be strong evidence for AA = BSE.

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees. Stand fast, Jon Snow called. Throw them back. He stood atop the Wall, alone. Flame, he cried, feed them flame, but there was no one to pay heed. They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. Snow, an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as shed appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. I am the Lord of Winterfell, Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. Snow, the bird cried.

Azor Ahai murdered his love with a red fire sword, and the BSE usurped the throne of his sibling by killing them. In this dream, where Jon dreams he is Azor Ahai with a red fire sword, he does things to match both of these characters. He murders his love, Ygritte = Azor Ahai. He declares himself the lord of Winterfell and kills Robb (murder and usurpation) = Bloodstone Emperor.

The Daynes as Proto-Valyrians

We have no evidence whatsoever that the Daynes had purple/violet/amethyst eyes going back to the Dawn Age. We know that that two contemporary Daynes, Ashara and Gerold, had/have violet eyes. I believe I read somewhere that no Targaryen ever married into the Dayne family (the reverse is true, though). However, we cannot discount the thought that a Valyrian may have easily married into a House as ancient and noble as the Daynes during the 5,000 years prior to Westeros being exposed to the Targaryens. I know the Valyrians are said to have never been interested in Westeros, but that's Valyria as an empire. To say that in 5000 years, no Dayne ever reproduced with a Valyrian is illogical.

However, to play devil's advocate with myself, why would no other house have had such interactions with Valyrians? Why are there no Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc. with purple eyes? Simple enough, proximity, time, and chance. Proximity: Starfall is closer to Valyria than many of the other cities in Westeros, and very easy to get to from Valyria. Time: Perhaps there were Valyrian-Starks (aside from Jon), but perhaps their purple eyes were diluted out over time. Any mixing of the genes into the Dayne pool would have needed to occur recently enough, but not so recent as for it to require the Valyrian(s) to be Targaryen, i.e. the mix happened before the Doom. It could have been many subsequent marriages with Valyrians that introduced the purple eyes to the Daynes. Chance: The Daynes just happened to be the lucky house that got in bed with the Valyrians.

If you can suggest that this trait could survive 10,000 years, then you must accept that this trait could survive 500 years. I just cannot accept, given the evidence that we have, that just because two current Daynes have purple eyes, that their family possessed purple eyes for 10,000+ years.

I believe George has said they also are not Valyrians, but I don't have the SSM (anyone know that one?) Again, we don't have *proof*, but consider: The Dayne's have a totally anachronistic 10,000 year old magic sword, which indicates something noteworthy about their origin. Purple eyes are kind of a big deal - TWOAIF makes a point of saying that no other men anywhere in the world have this eye color... except that the Daynes DO have purple eyes. We are also told that only three houses of Valyrian descent exist in Westeros: Targaryens, Celtigars, and Velaryons. If the Dayne's had married Valyrians, then they would have been listed as such. It's too noteworthy a thing to go unmentioned, it seems to me. Given that we know for a fact that dragonlords existed in Wetseros in the Dawn Age and built the Hightower fortress, we have every reason to look for purple eyed people in Dawn Age Westeros. And here they are. It's pretty clear that the Dayne's are NOT Valyrians. yet they have purple eyes, silver hair (Darkstar) and an inexplicable magic sword.

Quaithe as a member of the Church of Starry Wisdom

I resoundingly disagree that there is any association between Quaithe and the Church of Starry Wisdom. TWOIAF states that this religion is sinister and is closely associated with the Bloodstone Emperor's worship of a fallen black stone. The Bloodstone Emperor practiced dark arts, torture, necromancy, and cannibalism. All of these things are abhorred throughout most of the world. (Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar are said to practice dark arts so as to, in my opinion, tarnish their names. The sorcery they practice does not seem in line with the treacherous deeds of the BSE.)

So why would someone like Quaithe be an agent of the Church of Starry Wisdom unless she was evil? I guess we cannot say that she isn't evil but the only evidence that I've seen put forward that she is associated with the Church of Starry Wisdom is the reference of her mask of stars. Nothing else about her suggests "Church of Starry Wisdom" to me.

In fact, when I read the passages referring to her mask of stars/starlight, I instantly thought of Shiera Seastar. Shiera SeaSTAR. What other individual have we seen that has lived beyond their natural years, possesses magical/prophetic powers, and seems to have a deep interest in the more magical individuals of the story? Bloodraven. Just so happens that his lover/partner/close associate was/is Shiera Seastar. It makes a lot of sense to me that any reference to stars is to further the thought that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and not the CSW.

I felt that the evidence was really strong for this. If you've read my Children of the Dawn essay and disagree, then I guess we disagree. I do think Quaithe is Shiera, fwiw. But "stars whispering their secrets" is COSW stuff. It's all over the place.

The dire wolves "sing to the stars" too in ACOK, which means they are likely starry wisdom cultists as well.

Just pulling your leg there. They do sing to the stars... but I'm just giving you an example of tying two things together nonsensically because they share a common wording. It's pretty easy to tell when to ideas don't directly relate to one another, vs. when they are.

The Church of Starry Wisdom

Similarly, I've read too many comments regarding various characters and their supposed connections with the CSW. I think people need to be careful of whom they associate with the CSW. Really, the only things we know about the CSW is that it is a sinister religion that may have been founded by a treacherous, torturous, cannibalistic necromancer. I know that just because the founder was a cannibalistic necromancer doesn't mean that followers of the CSW are too. However, given that the only other piece of information about this religion is that it is a sinister religion, I don't think it is a stretch to believe that the followers are sinister as well.

I've read comments that state that the Church of the Starry Wisdom is the oldest religion on Planetos. This is patently false. We have a direct reference in the WOIAF that the BSE cast aside his gods to worship the black stone. The Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of the Night precede the black stone/CSW by at least 11,000 years (10,000 year reign of the God-on-Earth plus 1,000 year reign of the Pearl Emperor, plus all the reigns between the Pearl Emperor and the BSE, so any number of years less than 16,000). This means that this belief existed for more time before the Long Night, than any other belief that started concurrent with the Long Night. 11,000-16,000 years is a long time. I still see no reason to believe that Shiera Seastar is in any way related to the Church of Starry Wisdom.

Therefore, I don't think we can suggest such things as "Quaithe is obviously in league with the CSW because of her mask of stars" or "the Hightowers are members of the CSW because their sept is named the Starry Sept." I just think it's illogical to assume such things. If the CSW was more common and didn't have such a sinister and evil history, it might not be so illogical.

I think there's a lot more evidence than that, but point taken. I did say at the outset of that essay that we were looking for potential connections, as opposed to rock solid ones. The idea of linking COSW to certain people is hypothetical, for sure. But not crackpot, at all. I am amassing my Hightowers / Oldtwon / Fot7 material, and there is a lot to indicate Starry Wisdom.

We should keep in mind the idea of balance of opposites here. Dany's dragons are basically a menace, as are the Others. But what if we need one of those menaces to take out the other? (pun intended). What if we need a bit of Starry Wisdom? What if they are involved with the original fuck up, and we need their knowledge to fix it? I'm only throwing these out as possibilities, but as you said at the top, its impotent to stay flexible in your thinning. What if the BSE's evil deeds were exaggerated slightly, or just not understood? Maybe he's a bad guy, yes, but one who did something that was necessary at some point. This gets back to the idea of the NK as a guy who sacrificed his soul and seed to make a pact with the Others. Not sure if I buy it, but it seems possible.

The Deep Ones

Similarly, I have seen too many comments regarding the Deep Ones. We are told from the WOIAF that the Deep Ones are said to be half man half fish and that there might have been an association between them and the Seastone Chair (never confirmed). It is also said that creatures from the sea may have been responsible for the eradication of the Mazemakers. Who is to say that they are the Deep Ones?

Again, I think it would be illogical to propose such drastic theories about the Deep Ones based on the exceedingly limited information we have about them. People have brought up the Lovecraftian Deep Ones, and while the Deep Ones on Planetos are similar in suggested appearance, we have no reason to believe they are sinister, evil, human-killing beings. We cannot (and this is a big deal for me) supplant lore from Planetos with lore from another universe. We know that GRRM gives homages to favored authors, but that in no way allows us to make suppositions based on the lore of other authors' universes. Lucifer Means Lightbringer and Lenabot have suggested/would agree with what I say about the Deep Ones and the Lovecraftian homages.

This is tricky. Yes, he draws from Ragnarok, but no, he's not going to end it just the same way. Just as he's drawn from the War of the Roses and Mithras - but again, not going to stick to any influence 100%. But the whole point of using motifs and archetypes that people are familiar with is to build off of that familiarity. Lovescraft's stuff is public domain, so I think george is treating his stuff like other fantasy writers treat Tolkien, in a way. Everyone uses orcs and elves and such. Tolkien got it from Norse myth, but his versions of this ideas have became standard issue. I think Martin is placing Lovecraft in that category, to an extent. So I do object when people assume that anything referencing Lovecraft is simply a head nod in a meaningless part of the backstory.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The aquatic humans have been involved in the story form the beginning, when we get the story of the Ironborn. The aquatic human stuff continues with the Sisterton people, the Squishers Dick Crabb speaks of, Jojen's talk of breathing mud and aquatic clues about the crannogmen. There's also constant references to tales of merlings and selkies. In the first book, there's a quote where someone says the fisherfolk have seen white walkers near east watch, and Tyrion says "the fisherfolk of Lannisport oft swear they see merlings." Since we know the Others DO exist... the merlings may as well. They do, in fact, as we have seen many people with flipper hands and fish-faces. This is a thing. The term "Deep One" we only received in TWOIAF, but that is just another name for the merlings and selkies we've been hearing about since book one.

The truth is, its easy to read ASOIAF and just ignore the stuff that sounds too weird for our brain, as our internal biases tell us "that's just an old folktale." But this represents a bis against folktales and myth, which contain much more truth than many realize. Martin is hip to this and is playing with these biases in his readers. When you fog back and do a re-read and look for merging / selkie stuff, you will be shocked at owmuch there actually is.

Do I expect the Deep One invasion to suddenly take center stage and steal the show? No. I don't know if the Deep Ones will come again or not - although we do have the "dead things in the water" at hard home. But it does seem that the Deep Ones did come in the past.

The Thouand Islands people, who are fishy looking yet terrified of the water, indicate that the merlings may be hostile to humans.

We know very little about the Deep Ones and the Church of Starry Wisdom. There are very few clues or allegories (if any) throughout the texts to suggest any grand theories concerning these. The Deep Ones cause the shattering of the Arm of Dorne and the Doom of Valyria? Two of the most cataclysmic events on the planet are credited to a race we know virtually nothing about based on...? The Hightowers, Quaithe, Bloodraven, Euron, elite R'hllorists, etc. are all members of the Church of Starry Wisdom, a church founded by the murderous, torturous, cannibalistic, necromancer emperor whose actions brought on the Long Night? Based on what evidence? Mentions of sorcery? Starry Septs? I need more evidence.

One of the only things that ties multiple places together with the CSW is the oily/greasy black stones in Asshai, Yeen, Pyke, and the Isle of Toads. These black stones seem unnatural. Something from the heavens or the depths, perhaps. We know that the BSE worshipped one of these stones that fell from the sky. It wouldn't be imprudent to suggest that the source of all these types of stone is from the second moon from LML's theory (which makes this a theory based on a theory).

As has been mentioned many times before, these are not made of the same material as the fused stone found in the pre-Valyrian labyrinth base of the tower in Oldtown (conjuring comparisons to the labyrinths of Lorath), the Five Forts, and the post-Valyrian walls of Volantis, Valyrian roads, etc. It makes enough sense to suggest that the Great Empire of the Dawn possessed the knowledge and means to craft the fused stones structures, similar to the Valyrians, going so far as to suggest that the Valyrians may be descendants of the GEotD.

This ties is with whether or not the BSE was the father of dragons. We know the Five Forts are said to have been built during the Pearl Emperor's reign. This means they predate the usurpation by the BSE. If dragons were involved in their creation, then the BSE cannot be the father of dragons.

[The Mother of The Others]

Did you ever get around to why she needs to be the empress and not a descendent? Lots of lead up and then.....

Why not a resurfacing of the magic potential that lived in the empress' veins but never had the chance to do its thing. Now the world has another opportunity to change the status quo. I suppose that's what you're saying too but it doesn't technically require a reincarnation.

I don't believe we have any *good* reason to say Azor = Emperor.

Euron wants to repeat Blood Betrayal history. That works. I was already convinced of his 6th sense awareness.

[oursisthefury69]

The Daynes as Proto-Valyrians

We have no evidence whatsoever that the Daynes had purple/violet/amethyst eyes going back to the Dawn Age. We know that that two contemporary Daynes, Ashara and Gerold, had/have violet eyes. I believe I read somewhere that no Targaryen ever married into the Dayne family (the reverse is true, though). However, we cannot discount the thought that a Valyrian may have easily married into a House as ancient and noble as the Daynes during the 5,000 years prior to Westeros being exposed to the Targaryens. I know the Valyrians are said to have never been interested in Westeros, but that's Valyria as an empire. To say that in 5000 years, no Dayne ever reproduced with a Valyrian is illogical.

.

I began reading your post and then stopped as soon as i got to this, how are you going to play devils advocate and say there's no evidence of the Daynes always having those traits (about an equal amount that they havent always had those traits, dont know how the onus isnt on your side to provide that case) when your alternative is one or a few unidentified Targaryens/Valyrians reproducing with the line and their genes just entirely usurping whatever you suggest the Daynes previous traits were

Also, tere's a pretty plainly stated reason as to why Valyrian families didnt interact with the Western world in the World Book, which the bulk of this thread is based off

[oursisthefury69]

To the OP, I believe I had commented on the thread previous to today but don't think I thought to say/mention it the first time..

Since it seems like your at the very least placing a good deal of importance/emphasis on the "rebirth" aspect of the theory/concept, I'm surprised you didn't begin to touch on and relate this somehow to the evidence for "rebirths" occurring within the Targaryen line (specifically near the end of their reign). It's very subtle, small amounts of text which implies such, but its definitely important. I'm not sure if your aware of what im referencing, if you do I wonder what your thoughts are on it? Because there's definitely a very easy way to ultimately relate/connect it to this whole Amtheyst Empress notion/theory

[LmL]

I don't believe we have any *good* reason to say Azor = Emperor.

...except for all the evidence I laid out in two long essays?

[LmL]

As for empress or descendent, perhaps you haven't read all the comments on this thread. We've talked quite a bit about what "reborn" might mean. Her being a blood descendent is part of it.

ETA: I realize I did not state it plainly. We are talking about archetypal roles, not reincarnation. History repeating itself. Nobody is condemned to do exactly as so and so did before them. Nobody is the literal reincarnation of Azor Ahai or anyone else. At least, that seemed to be the general consensus.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

As for empress or descendent, perhaps you haven't read all the comments on this thread. We've talked quite a bit about what "reborn" might mean. Her being a blood descendent is part of it.

ETA: I realize I did not state it plainly. We are talking about archetypal roles, not reincarnation. History repeating itself. Nobody is condemned to do exactly as so and so did before them. Nobody is the literal reincarnation of Azor Ahai or anyone else. At least, that seemed to be the general consensus.

GRRM said in an interview once that history as a science has changed dramatically since he was young - up until mid-20th century, a prevailing way to interpret historical events was through Great People, who through their own chutzpah drove major world events. This also leads to describing brutal wars with quaint names like "The War of the Three Henries" (because three guys named Henry happened to be at the core of it, subsuming all other reasons for the war into a personal conflict between them). This is a facet of romanticism - again, GRRM is repeatedly said he is a romantic.

Today, we look at "major" historical events as a confluence of factors, not necessarily causally leading from something or to something.

I wouldn't say these archetypal roles are there to demonstrate that people aren't bound to repeat mistakes. That would be a very sweet conclusion. I think the aim is to blow apart the illusion of "free will" as something that will rescue us from the eternal return. Where the shit is the conflict in that?

I think GRRM creates these archetypal roles, assigns them to characters who we would firmly believe are not suited for them (too good for them, or too bad for them), and then has the story go from subverting the archetype, to finally going around to embracing the archetype (or achieving its purposes) by a different road. like how we're not sure if the prophecies are real, but it doesn't matter because they influence events anyway - is Cersei an evil queen who somebody made a prophecy to, or did some words said to a little girl once scar her so badly that she became the evil queen? Historically, it matters not - the evil queen played the evil queen part.

The naivety of the romantic approach to history is that it assigned one-dimensional roles to real people (the evil, the greedy, the good). Subverting this has been an aim for GRRM. Everyone's a grey person, with their own free will, instead of a Destiny.

BUT why exactly we would conclude that this will lead to a better world, and not an ever-deteriorating one, is not something that's ever been properly explained. GRRM is engaging with that.

[Durran Durrandon]

Did you ever get around to why she needs to be the empress and not a descendent? Lots of lead up and then....

Euron wants to repeat Blood Betrayal history. That works. I was already convinced of his 6th sense awareness.

It doesn't have to be in a literal transmigration souls sense. LML takes on as a repetition of archetypal patterns. I think of it as a karmic pattern.

I do think that it is your last line that I that I feel strongest about. I think the most important part could be Euron's motives

[Durran Durrandon]

To the OP, I believe I had commented on the thread previous to today but don't think I thought to say/mention it the first time..

Since it seems like your at the very least placing a good deal of importance/emphasis on the "rebirth" aspect of the theory/concept, I'm surprised you didn't begin to touch on and relate this somehow to the evidence for "rebirths" occurring within the Targaryen line (specifically near the end of their reign). It's very subtle, small amounts of text which implies such, but its definitely important. I'm not sure if your aware of what im referencing, if you do I wonder what your thoughts are on it? Because there's definitely a very easy way to ultimately relate/connect it to this whole Amtheyst Empress notion/theory

No, please do go on. I'm interested.

[Durran Durrandon]

Before I post my thoughts, I need to make a few primer comments:

1. (Anyone with children will especially get this.) When your child does something that you don't initially think is wrong, it is natural for you to defend your child's choice. If, however, you come to see that what your child did was indeed wrong, you must never abandon reason for the sake of defending your child. Both you and your child will benefit from accepting the wrongs done and striving to fix them going forward.

The same can be said of everyone's theories herein. I know a lot of work was done putting them together. Don't let your pride get in the way of reason.

2) We, the readers, cannot "prove" anything in this story. Pet peeve, yes, but I think it is important to stay away from phrases like "I proved that because of such and such, x=y".

3) Excellent post, Durran Durrandon.

4) I have read most of Lucifer Means Lightbringer's theories. I agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. Good job and keep up the hard work. Don't be offended when I disagree with you.

5) Most of my comments are in reference to comments made within this thread. It would be impossible to multi-quite all of them as they span many pages and are interrelated.

6) I like to play devil's advocate, even with myself.

So it begins...

The Bloodstone Emperor as Azor Ahai.

Why would there be no records of an individual as prolific as the Bloodstone Emperor being the same as another equally, if not more, prolific individual such as Azor Ahai, of whom there are many tales and names. The only time the Bloodstone Emperor is mentioned in the same breath as Azor Ahai (and his many other names) is as the antithesis thereof. What evidence do we have that the Bloodstone Emperor made the switch from someone so evil as to cause the Long Night (in a sense) to being someone so virtuous as to end it?

The Daynes as Proto-Valyrians

We have no evidence whatsoever that the Daynes had purple/violet/amethyst eyes going back to the Dawn Age. We know that that two contemporary Daynes, Ashara and Gerold, had/have violet eyes. I believe I read somewhere that no Targaryen ever married into the Dayne family (the reverse is true, though). However, we cannot discount the thought that a Valyrian may have easily married into a House as ancient and noble as the Daynes during the 5,000 years prior to Westeros being exposed to the Targaryens. I know the Valyrians are said to have never been interested in Westeros, but that's Valyria as an empire. To say that in 5000 years, no Dayne ever reproduced with a Valyrian is illogical.

However, to play devil's advocate with myself, why would no other house have had such interactions with Valyrians? Why are there no Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, etc. with purple eyes? Simple enough, proximity, time, and chance. Proximity: Starfall is closer to Valyria than many of the other cities in Westeros, and very easy to get to from Valyria. Time: Perhaps there were Valyrian-Starks (aside from Jon), but perhaps their purple eyes were diluted out over time. Any mixing of the genes into the Dayne pool would have needed to occur recently enough, but not so recent as for it to require the Valyrian(s) to be Targaryen, i.e. the mix happened before the Doom. It could have been many subsequent marriages with Valyrians that introduced the purple eyes to the Daynes. Chance: The Daynes just happened to be the lucky house that got in bed with the Valyrians.

If you can suggest that this trait could survive 10,000 years, then you must accept that this trait could survive 500 years. I just cannot accept, given the evidence that we have, that just because two current Daynes have purple eyes, that their family possessed purple eyes for 10,000+ years.

Quaithe as a member of the Church of Starry Wisdom

I resoundingly disagree that there is any association between Quaithe and the Church of Starry Wisdom. TWOIAF states that this religion is sinister and is closely associated with the Bloodstone Emperor's worship of a fallen black stone. The Bloodstone Emperor practiced dark arts, torture, necromancy, and cannibalism. All of these things are abhorred throughout most of the world. (Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar are said to practice dark arts so as to, in my opinion, tarnish their names. The sorcery they practice does not seem in line with the treacherous deeds of the BSE.)

So why would someone like Quaithe be an agent of the Church of Starry Wisdom unless she was evil? I guess we cannot say that she isn't evil but the only evidence that I've seen put forward that she is associated with the Church of Starry Wisdom is the reference of her mask of stars. Nothing else about her suggests "Church of Starry Wisdom" to me.

In fact, when I read the passages referring to her mask of stars/starlight, I instantly thought of Shiera Seastar. Shiera SeaSTAR. What other individual have we seen that has lived beyond their natural years, possesses magical/prophetic powers, and seems to have a deep interest in the more magical individuals of the story? Bloodraven. Just so happens that his lover/partner/close associate was/is Shiera Seastar. It makes a lot of sense to me that any reference to stars is to further the thought that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar and not the CSW.

The Church of Starry Wisdom

Similarly, I've read too many comments regarding various characters and their supposed connections with the CSW. I think people need to be careful of whom they associate with the CSW. Really, the only things we know about the CSW is that it is a sinister religion that may have been founded by a treacherous, torturous, cannibalistic necromancer. I know that just because the founder was a cannibalistic necromancer doesn't mean that followers of the CSW are too. However, given that the only other piece of information about this religion is that it is a sinister religion, I don't think it is a stretch to believe that the followers are sinister as well.

I've read comments that state that the Church of the Starry Wisdom is the oldest religion on Planetos. This is patently false. We have a direct reference in the WOIAF that the BSE cast aside his gods to worship the black stone. The Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of the Night precede the black stone/CSW by at least 11,000 years (10,000 year reign of the God-on-Earth plus 1,000 year reign of the Pearl Emperor, plus all the reigns between the Pearl Emperor and the BSE, so any number of years less than 16,000). This means that this belief existed for more time before the Long Night, than any other belief that started concurrent with the Long Night. 11,000-16,000 years is a long time. I still see no reason to believe that Shiera Seastar is in any way related to the Church of Starry Wisdom.

Therefore, I don't think we can suggest such things as "Quaithe is obviously in league with the CSW because of her mask of stars" or "the Hightowers are members of the CSW because their sept is named the Starry Sept." I just think it's illogical to assume such things. If the CSW was more common and didn't have such a sinister and evil history, it might not be so illogical.

The Deep Ones

Similarly, I have seen too many comments regarding the Deep Ones. We are told from the WOIAF that the Deep Ones are said to be half man half fish and that there might have been an association between them and the Seastone Chair (never confirmed). It is also said that creatures from the sea may have been responsible for the eradication of the Mazemakers. Who is to say that they are the Deep Ones?

Again, I think it would be illogical to propose such drastic theories about the Deep Ones based on the exceedingly limited information we have about them. People have brought up the Lovecraftian Deep Ones, and while the Deep Ones on Planetos are similar in suggested appearance, we have no reason to believe they are sinister, evil, human-killing beings. We cannot (and this is a big deal for me) supplant lore from Planetos with lore from another universe. We know that GRRM gives homages to favored authors, but that in no way allows us to make suppositions based on the lore of other authors' universes. Lucifer Means Lightbringer and Lenabot have suggested/would agree with what I say about the Deep Ones and the Lovecraftian homages.

We know very little about the Deep Ones and the Church of Starry Wisdom. There are very few clues or allegories (if any) throughout the texts to suggest any grand theories concerning these. The Deep Ones cause the shattering of the Arm of Dorne and the Doom of Valyria? Two of the most cataclysmic events on the planet are credited to a race we know virtually nothing about based on...? The Hightowers, Quaithe, Bloodraven, Euron, elite R'hllorists, etc. are all members of the Church of Starry Wisdom, a church founded by the murderous, torturous, cannibalistic, necromancer emperor whose actions brought on the Long Night? Based on what evidence? Mentions of sorcery? Starry Septs? I need more evidence.

One of the only things that ties multiple places together with the CSW is the oily/greasy black stones in Asshai, Yeen, Pyke, and the Isle of Toads. These black stones seem unnatural. Something from the heavens or the depths, perhaps. We know that the BSE worshipped one of these stones that fell from the sky. It wouldn't be imprudent to suggest that the source of all these types of stone is from the second moon from LML's theory (which makes this a theory based on a theory).

As has been mentioned many times before, these are not made of the same material as the fused stone found in the pre-Valyrian labyrinth base of the tower in Oldtown (conjuring comparisons to the labyrinths of Lorath), the Five Forts, and the post-Valyrian walls of Volantis, Valyrian roads, etc. It makes enough sense to suggest that the Great Empire of the Dawn possessed the knowledge and means to craft the fused stones structures, similar to the Valyrians, going so far as to suggest that the Valyrians may be descendants of the GEotD.

This ties is with whether or not the BSE was the father of dragons. We know the Five Forts are said to have been built during the Pearl Emperor's reign. This means they predate the usurpation by the BSE. If dragons were involved in their creation, then the BSE cannot be the father of dragons.

Thoughts on the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night

The MMoL is considered to be the "good" god/goddess while the LoN is considered the "evil" god/goddess. They exist in harmony however. Mortals, however, do not exist in harmony. The LON is seen as a force of evil (hence the building of the Five Forts thousands of years before the Long Night). The LON came to punish the wicked during the LN much in the way Satan punishes the wicked in Christian theology. There are plenty of religions that believe in a negative, antithesis, opposite deity whose role it is to punish the wicked.

I think it is worth noting that the WOIAF refers to the Grey Waste as a freezing desert. A parallel between the Wall/LoAW and the Five Forts/Grey Waste is apparent.

There is a ton I agree with here and few things I don't, but I think this is a damn good opportunity to talk about what constitutes evidence and structural analysis.

I'm still not convinced that Azor Ahai was the BSE. He might have been This all began, from my perspective when I posted something arguing that there was a hell of a lot of structural similarity between the BSE/AE myth and the AA/NN myth. More so I saw the same structural similarity between the Durran Godsgrief myth and the Grey King myth, and some interesting counterpoints when looking at all four myths.

That was when a guy who we now all know as LML began talking to me. What he hit me with was that the same structural similarity could be found in the Quartheen moon myth.I was immediately convinced that he was on to something. He asked me to look at the early draft of his first astronomy essay. There is a ton of great stuff in there, but it is crucial for me to say I have never been a fan of his application of structural analysis to other far reaching parts of the text to support the comet/moon theory. I love the comet/moon theory. I think LML has produced some great material that supports it very well, but I think he also produces a lot of material to support it that I think is weak. I am specifically talking about that structural analysis, when he starts in about how Brienne separating from Jaime on the boat and than knocking boulder off the bank onto the other boat is symbolic of the comet splitting and one part slamming into the moon. I'm not saying his analysis is wrong. I am saying that for me it is not quality evidence, because it is highly subject to interpretation. So when LML says he has provided more evidence to support his come theory than supports R+L=J, I kind of balk, because I think he has produced a lot of great evidence, but I think the MORE evidence he is talking about consists of this evidence, which for me, is utterly unsatisfactory. All this leads to a question. What qualifies as good evidence.

Example: On second read of the books, I was struck by the amount of detail and attention that went into the description of Brienne getting her shield repainted. I had read the Dunk and Egg novellas, but had forgotten about Dunk's shield, but I knew there has to be something up with Brienne getting the shooting star and the tree painted on her shield, so I Googled Brienne's shield and came across the theory that she is a descendant of Dunk's. The evidence bugged me. How the crap is the shield proof of that? My problem is that I'm academically trained in the social sciences and this wouldn't cut it as evidence. This isn't social science it's literature, so symbolism is a legitimate form of evidence. I had to shift my thinking, and it opened up a lot in the text.

So I do think symbolism is a legitimate form of analysis and I think it is important to look at words or symbols the author uses only in specific circumstances. The word amethyst pops up about seven times I can think of in the text. Once is a random piece of jewelry, another is piece of jewelry owned by Daenerys, one is the black amethyst hairnet that finished off Joffrey, three are references to the Amethyst Empress, and two are referencing Danaery's eyes. One of the references to the Amethyst Empress and one of the references to Daenary's eyes are directly spoken by Euron. Is that conclusive? No. Does it suggest that the author is probably trying to tell us something? Yes.

Try pulling of the same analysis with sapphires, because I have. It doesn't go anywhere, not really. I have seen a few posts where people try. Sapphires just pop up far more and seem to have purposes depending on what the author is doing with that scene, but there is no unifying thread.

Let's bring the back the Church of Starry Wisdom. The stars are all over the text, but they pop up in highly significant ways. Melisandre's eyes, wight eyes, the Starry Sept, the Seven Pointed Star, the blue star in the eye of the Ice Dragon constellation, the bleeding star, George is pretty clearly doing stuff with stars, So I have been open to LML's attempts to try to tease out the COSW material. I appreciate that much what he has done with it has not relied on deep structural analysis of the text. I agree with you about Quaith, but it am deeply suspicious of the Stary Sept. I think LML is onto something with the Hightowers, et al. The evidence is light. I agree, but it is fun watching it develop.

(Note this was going to be far more consolidated piece of writing, when I first began writing it, before my wife walked into the room and started talking to me about stuff. Sorry if this meandered and the trailed off.)

[Durran Durrandon]

Oh, wait the Daynes. Yeah look. Um this is all BS genetically anyhow. No one stays genetically isolated for 10,000 years. The purple eyes are clearly important to the story or they would be a different color; If it doesn't suggest common ancestry with Valyrians, then it serves some other story telling purpose we have yet to discover, but you can't just look at this in genetic terms, because again this is literature not social science or in this case, biology and genetics.