Middle East and North Africa 18

[Axes]

Yeah, that's probably the more sincere answer.

At what time do you mean? And do you mean unpopulated areas on the West bank, or that it wasn't an official state? Wasn't this settled when the line was drawn? I'd say it's owned by Palestine now even if it was ruled by Jordan immediately before the war of 1967 and was part of the British Mandate of Palestine before that. I can understand that Israel wants to control the border to Jordan for security and that a new agreement should consider this at least (not saying official control of the border should necessarily be part of the solution), but the Israeli settlements on the occupied land are a different issue.

A country to live in is not just a sum of all the patches of land owned by someone. It's is not just a stretch of dirt, it's the sources of water (not always situated on land owned by someone, but affected by usage and area development in the whole catchment) and all other common goods, as well the freedom to move freely within it. I've heard the Palestinians have plantations of trees for example, in the surrounding areas, on pieces of land owned by no one. Much like there are common goods everywhere in the world that are used by those living there to survive. Empty land is a little bit of room for future generations and advancements. Things I think the Israelis, like everyone, can appreciate the worth of having.

I am actually speaking of the pre-Israel Jewish immigration into the land. Sure, Arabs had land ownership over a certain percent of the land, but do they have more of a claim to unclaimed land than a Jewish family that moved to the area and purchased a separate piece of land to cultivate, especially when there was no national or historical national control over the area, and the concept of nationhood was non-existant in the area at the time.

[Eyron]

I'm agreeing with you. I just think that picture does a good job of conveying the idea that while a country like Iraq may be big, that doesn't mean it's not full of empty space and that doesn't mean said empty space isn't still part of Iraq.

And I'm saying the whole "It's empty land" is totally a parallel to excuses for colonialism in the americas.

Ah, got it. Yes, it's a good picture. I also sometimes remind myself of how small Israel is and several times tinier Palestine is. And the latter keeps getting smaller.

Yeah it is, I just wasn't thinking specifically of the Americas when I was writing the post. It's a parallel to a lot of the historical colonisations.

[Eyron]

Eira

Are you are talking about current settlements or the arrival in the 20,3O and 40s?

In the first quarter of the century there were about half a million Arabs living in the British Mandate, more than half in the big cities. The vast Majority of what is now Israel was uninhabited wasteland.

To me it is the current situation that is important. Israel exists because a people wanted a nation of its own. The Palestinians want and deserve the same. They shouldn't have to be born and die as second class citizens, and live their whole life under military occupation. What is Israel's plan for those in the occupied areas? We know it's not to make them citizens under law, with a right to vote.

[Mr Fixit]

To me it is the current situation that is important. Israel exists because a people wanted a nation of its own. The Palestinians want and deserve the same. They shouldn't have to be born and die as second class citizens, and live their whole life under military occupation. What is Israel's plan for those in the occupied areas? We know it's not to make them citizens under law, with a right to vote.

Their original plan was for Palestinians to leave, with or without "help" from Israel. Since it's not gonna happen, and since indefinite occupation also isn't feasible, I'd say that the Israeli current plan is to grab every piece of land that is of value--rich with arable land, water sources, etc.--and leave the rest, the so-called "Bantustans" that are unable to sustain themselves and are physically divided into hundreds of little pieces, to some form of Palestinian self-administration. In other words, a creative mash-up of racism, colonialism, and apartheid.

I must admit that I find it saddening that a people that suffered such terrible crimes inflicted upon it not that long ago are ready and able to advance their own little version of Blood and Soil.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

Isis is becoming a bigger threat each passing day their numbers keep growing and are secretly being funded by Wahabbi states like Qatar and Saudi Arabia. The Assad regime will fall sooner or later there is no way the Syrian government can keep this up even with Iranian support that support is limited. When Syria does fall like Iraq did the game will change drastically in the Middle East ISIS may emerge as a global terrorist organization leaving Al Qaeda in the dust and Iran will be isolated in the region with only Lebanon left as an ally which isn't a really significant ally like Syria was and Turkey may emerge as a regional power.

My impression is rather that things have been going pretty badly for IS since everybody started bombing them. Especially in Iraq, where it seems like their capital will soon come under attack.

Jews are apart of the Levantine group, they cluster with Levantine Arabs (Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis). Arabs in the Levant are genetically more similar to Jews than they are with the Arabs living in the Gulf states of the Arabian Peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, etc,)

By the way it's impossible for Arabs to be "anti-Semitic" because technically Arabs are also Semites, I guess the same could be said for non-Arab Muslims as well since they also follow a Semitic religion.

That's probably because Levantine Arabs are largely descended from local pre Islamic conquest peoples like Assyrians, Phoenicans, Babylonians etc.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Yeah the "Arabs" of that region are basically Arabized Babylonians and Phonecians. Just like the Berbers of North Africa who are also victims of Arabization, the real Arab race hails from the Arabian Peninsula.

[Salafi Stannis]

Isis is becoming a bigger threat each passing day their numbers keep growing and are secretly being funded by Wahabbi states like Qatar and Saudi Arabia. The Assad regime will fall sooner or later there is no way the Syrian government can keep this up even with Iranian support that support is limited. When Syria does fall like Iraq did the game will change drastically in the Middle East ISIS may emerge as a global terrorist organization leaving Al Qaeda in the dust and Iran will be isolated in the region with only Lebanon left as an ally which isn't a really significant ally like Syria was and Turkey may emerge as a regional power.

Fucking horse shit. ISIS are being funded by Saudi Arabia? You can't be serious. ISIS, and it's extremist precursors, believe that the Saudi rulers to be kuffar (disbelievers) who must be overthrown and killed!

Watch this: http://youtu.be/05yw1IXM1k4

[Arakan]

It seems like it's all about historically legitimate claims to the land until it doesn't work for your argument and then it's all about the here and now.

What the fuck are you talking about...again?

Where the fuck did I use historical claims to legitimate the foundation of the state of Israel? Please show me the quotes but unfortunately they exist only in your brain...

What I said is, that the Jewish people wanted a state, they wanted this state to be in what is now called Israel and that this wish was legitimate...

You now Shryke, when I wrote that I was thinking more about the horrors of the Holocaust, 6 million murdered Jews. Quite legitimate for the few surviving to wish for a state of their own...

But don't bother man, you are a master of accusing others of reading difficulties, maybe start to reflect about your own.

[Arakan]

Yeah the "Arabs" of that region are basically Arabized Babylonians and Phonecians. Just like the Berbers of North Africa who are also victims of Arabization, the real Arab race hails from the Arabian Peninsula.

Yep, gets often forgotten. The Arabs were pioneers in cultural imperalism. But the Berbers (Zinedine Zidane as example) could to some extent withstand the Arabization pressure.

[Axes]

Mr Fixit: Their original plan was for Palestinians to leave, with or without "help" from Israel.

Seems a bit reaching to claim it was a coherrant plan. If so, then how was it implemented, where are the results? Palestinian emigration from the west bank is very low. In fact, it seems like the Israeli policy in the west bank is anything but a coherrant policy, more of a bi-polar disorder of building in certain settlements, tearing down others, nothing that would lead to a mass exodus of Palestinians.

[Mr Fixit]

Seems a bit reaching to claim it was a coherrant plan. If so, then how was it implemented, where are the results? Palestinian emigration from the west bank is very low. In fact, it seems like the Israeli policy in the west bank is anything but a coherrant policy, more of a bi-polar disorder of building in certain settlements, tearing down others, nothing that would lead to a mass exodus of Palestinians.

That's why I said it was their original plan. Since it became obvious 1947 isn't gonna repeat itself, Israel is now in the process of creating Bantustans for Palestinians. Id' say results are there for all to see.

[Axes]

That's why I said it was their original plan. Since it became obvious 1947 isn't gonna repeat itself, Israel is now in the process of creating Bantustans for Palestinians. Id' say results are there for all to see.

When, exactly, was it the original plan?

[Biglose]

That's why I said it was their original plan. Since it became obvious 1947 isn't gonna repeat itself, Israel is now in the process of creating Bantustans for Palestinians. Id' say results are there for all to see.

What a bull. If this would have been the plan, we would not be talking about it. Israel would be a bit bigger and the palestinians would be sitting in jordan. There have been ample opportuinities in the last 60 years to do exactly that.

You know what really annoys me? Even if Israel would have done it via genocide, they would still be less isolated and probably better recieved worldwide, because the "problem" would haven been "dealt with".

Thats the thing which is really ugly about the whole situation.

[Mr Fixit]

What a bull. If this would have been the plan, we would not be talking about it. Israel would be a bit bigger and the palestinians would be sitting in jordan. There have been ample opportuinities in the last 60 years to do exactly that.

You know what really annoys me? Even if Israel would have done it via genocide, they would still be less isolated and probably better recieved worldwide, because the "problem" would haven been "dealt with".

Thats the thing which is really ugly about the whole situation.

Enlighten me then. What is Israel's plan?

[Axes]

Enlighten me then. What is Israel's plan?

Knowing the complete clusterfuck which is Israeli politics, it hasn't had a long term plan since the late 60's, rather a jumble of political interest groups pushing in every direction and different governments trying to appease all.

[Mr Fixit]

Knowing the complete clusterfuck which is Israeli politics, it hasn't had a long term plan since the late 60's, rather a jumble of political interest groups pushing in every direction and different governments trying to appease all.

Nevertheless, that "jumble of interest groups pushing in every direction" must lead to some kind of resultant force. Saying there's no plan, while maaaaaaybe technically correct, neglects to account for definite and disastrous consequences such "lack" of direction has inflicted upon the Palestinian territories. Also, saying there's no long-term plan would imply that the Israeli treatment of the "Palestinian issue" undergoes significant qualitative changes over time. However, aside from the brief Oslo interlude, I don't see any evidence of their willingness to "change the paradigm". Palestinians have been living under martial law close to 50 years; illegal settlements spread further and further. Plan or no, results speak for themselves. And they have been remarkably consistent for a very long time.

[aceluby]

What a bull. If this would have been the plan, we would not be talking about it. Israel would be a bit bigger and the palestinians would be sitting in jordan. There have been ample opportuinities in the last 60 years to do exactly that.

You know what really annoys me? Even if Israel would have done it via genocide, they would still be less isolated and probably better recieved worldwide, because the "problem" would haven been "dealt with".

Thats the thing which is really ugly about the whole situation.

Can you name a single country that is better received worldwide due to 'dealing with' their problem via genocide?

[Biglose]

Can you name a single country that is better received worldwide due to 'dealing with' their problem via genocide?

Read, think, understand.

[Hot Meat Pie]

There are factions within KSA that do support ISIS they would like to see the Saudi monarchy destroyed in place for a Salafist ruler.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Seems a bit reaching to claim it was a coherrant plan. If so, then how was it implemented, where are the results? Palestinian emigration from the west bank is very low. In fact, it seems like the Israeli policy in the west bank is anything but a coherrant policy, more of a bi-polar disorder of building in certain settlements, tearing down others, nothing that would lead to a mass exodus of Palestinians.

If the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire never took place there wouldn't have been an Israel state today, it could have been called Palestine where Palestinians would have been able to live like human beings alongside the Jews - the area may have been under Turkish rule but then again Turks are good at ruling because unlike other people they don't force assimilation and respect your beliefs -something Arabs and Eastern Europeans did not appreciate, now look at them they are all suffering. This is one reason why I sometimes don't feel much sympathy for Arabs they allied with the British against their fellow Muslim Turks to to abolish Ottoman rule in the region well we all see how that turned out.

Turkey is the most developed, democratic, secular country in the Middle East and Islamic world today. You wouldn't even know think Turkey was a Muslim nation because of how Westernized the nation is. Turkish women are able to dress freely without pressure from the government, you all Sibel Kekilli the actress who portrayed Shae, she is an example of the Turkish society.