Middle East and North Africa 18

[The Once and Future King]

If the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire never took place there wouldn't have been an Israel state today, it could have been called Palestine where Palestinians would have been able to live like human beings alongside the Jews - the area may have been under Turkish rule but then again Turks are good at ruling because unlike other people they don't force assimilation and respect your beliefs -something Arabs and Eastern Europeans did not appreciate, now look at them they are all suffering. This is one reason why I sometimes don't feel much sympathy for Arabs they allied with the British against their fellow Muslim Turks to to abolish Ottoman rule in the region well we all see how that turned out.

Turkey is the most developed, democratic, secular country in the Middle East and Islamic world today. You wouldn't even know think Turkey was a Muslim nation because of how Westernized the nation is. Turkish women are able to dress freely without pressure from the government, you all Sibel Kekilli the actress who portrayed Shae, she is an example of the Turkish society.

[The Once and Future King]

I agree with you Jon Con, and so do the Armenians

[The guy from the Vale]

Sibel Kekilli never lived in Turkey. She was born in Germany and grew up there. German society had just as much influence on her as her Turkish parents.

Now, certainly, Turkey is in many ways the most westernized country in the middle east... but that's changing rather quickly nowadays.

Your idea that the Ottoman Empire was extremely tolerant is not necessarily born out by the facts. Shi'ite Muslims (Alevites, Alawites, Ismailites) were prosecuted, as were Armenians, at least towards the end. The reason why the Ottoman Empire didn't prosecute Christians or Jews was mainly that for a long time, Christians were the majority in the Ottoman Empire.

[Frey Filet]

Just out of curiosity- why haven't Palestinians who live in refugee camps in Jordan and Syria and elsewhere in the Levant assimilated into the respective societies surrounding them? These refugee camps have existed for over 50 years, and to my knowledge Palestinians aren't really ethnically different from other Levantine Muslims...are they?

[Axes]

Aculuby:

Can you name a single country that is better received worldwide due to 'dealing with' their problem via genocide?

Probably not genocide but all out war and ethnic cleansing did tend to result, in many cases, in far less international criticism in the long run. Sri-Lanka killed 20,000 people in the last 3 week push of all out war against the tamil tigers. No more conflict, and the world ignores it. Another example would be northern cyprus. Turkey ethnically cleansed all of the Greek cypriots in the area and settled northern cyprus with ethnic Turks. You read about it once in a while but the world largely ignores the issue. A third example would be Chechnya, I suppose.

Jon Con:

the area may have been under Turkish rule but then again Turks are good at ruling because unlike other people they don't force assimilation and respect your beliefs -something Arabs and Eastern Europeans did not appreciate

Turkey!? Are you serious? The country that ethnically cleansed all hundreds of thousands of Greeks from its territory? The country that did the same with Greek cypriots in northern cyprus and settled the area with Turks? The country that forbid Kurds from teaching their own language, destroyed 8000 villages and calls them "mountain turks", not even recognizing their unique identity? Turkey makes Israel look like a beacon of light in comparison.

[Horza]

If the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire never took place there wouldn't have been an Israel state today, it could have been called Palestine where Palestinians would have been able to live like human beings alongside the Jews - the area may have been under Turkish rule but then again Turks are good at ruling because unlike other people they don't force assimilation and respect your beliefs -something Arabs and Eastern Europeans did not appreciate, now look at them they are all sufferin

Axes has already dealt with your Ottoman Empire apologism, but you're also ignoring these guys and their efforts in creating Turkish nationalism, a project fundamentally incompatible with a heterogenous multinational Empire, much less your rosy vision above.

I guess they should have been stopped too, and all the European nationalist movements they drew inspiration from as well, but that's muddying up the picture even further, isn't it?

[Shryke]

What the fuck are you talking about...again?

Where the fuck did I use historical claims to legitimate the foundation of the state of Israel? Please show me the quotes but unfortunately they exist only in your brain...

What I said is, that the Jewish people wanted a state, they wanted this state to be in what is now called Israel and that this wish was legitimate...

You literally just did it. Like, you claim you aren't doing it and then you do it in the next paragraph. This is reaching the level of "Is he just bad at this or is he a troll?". But it's sad.

You now Shryke, when I wrote that I was thinking more about the horrors of the Holocaust, 6 million murdered Jews. Quite legitimate for the few surviving to wish for a state of their own...

On what basis?

And on what basis is the claim to this specific land?

You know, beyond the reason you've already given that's based solely in historical precedent. That you then deny having said. Before repeating them again.

[Eyron]

I agree with you Jon Con, and so do the Armenians

Are you being sarcastic? Or do you think that what started in 1915 and onwards for almost a decade doesn't count? (It actually started earlier than that, but not on such a grand scale)

The Christians were not all treated well under the Ottoman rule and they were not equal citizens. In some places it was better, in some worse.

The Kurds that have fled to live here seem to disagree about Turkey being wonderful.

[Hot Meat Pie]

What are you talking about? Kurds have more freedom in Turkey than any other country on the planet.

There are Kurdish political parties, kurdish tv channels, newspapers, radio in Turkey. Kurds speak Kurdish freely on the street, Diyarbakir is the largest Kurdish city in Southeastern Turkey population nearly 1 million barely anybody even speaks or understands Turkish.

Kurdish terrorist PKK supporters hold constant demonstrations in the middle of Istanbul on a daily basis, nobody bothers them at all.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Aculuby:

Probably not genocide but all out war and ethnic cleansing did tend to result, in many cases, in far less international criticism in the long run. Sri-Lanka killed 20,000 people in the last 3 week push of all out war against the tamil tigers. No more conflict, and the world ignores it. Another example would be northern cyprus. Turkey ethnically cleansed all of the Greek cypriots in the area and settled northern cyprus with ethnic Turks. You read about it once in a while but the world largely ignores the issue. A third example would be Chechnya, I suppose.

Jon Con:

Turkey!? Are you serious? The country that ethnically cleansed all hundreds of thousands of Greeks from its territory? The country that did the same with Greek cypriots in northern cyprus and settled the area with Turks? The country that forbid Kurds from teaching their own language, destroyed 8000 villages and calls them "mountain turks", not even recognizing their unique identity? Turkey makes Israel look like a beacon of light in comparison.

The Turks never used ethnic cleansing I believe you are confusing Turks with Serbs whom wiped out nearly all the Bosnian Muslim and Croatian population in Serbia. Greeks were allowed to live freely, look tons of Greek Orthdox Churches are still standing in great condition throughout Turkey. Can you name me one Ottoman Mosque that still exists in Greece? The Greeks demolished every single Turkish mosqus after Turks lost control of Greece, there isn't even a Turkish minority in Greece anymore they have either been assimilated and murdered or being suppressed. There is a Greek minority population that still exists in Turkey mostly living in Istanbul, they are able to speak Greek and practice their religion freely.

Kurdish is a recognized second language in Tirkey, there are newspapers, tv channels, radio broadcasting in Kurdish. Kurds have more rights than even Turks do, there is absolutely no Kurdish suppression in modern Turkey, the government is doing a good job on that.

I wouldn't compare Turkey to Israel, Turkey doesn't treat it's ethnic minorities like animals. Minorities are at the same level as Turks, however Palestinians in Israel are valued as much as a housefly.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Axes has already dealt with your Ottoman Empire apologism, but you're also ignoring these guys and their efforts in creating Turkish nationalism, a project fundamentally incompatible with a heterogenous multinational Empire, much less your rosy vision above.

I guess they should have been stopped too, and all the European nationalist movements they drew inspiration from as well, but that's muddying up the picture even further, isn't it?

Young Turks were not nationalists, not one single member of the young Turks was even an ethnic Turk they were mostly Jews, Bulgarians, Greeks, and Albanians.

[The Iceman of the North]

Just out of curiosity- why haven't Palestinians who live in refugee camps in Jordan and Syria and elsewhere in the Levant assimilated into the respective societies surrounding them? These refugee camps have existed for over 50 years, and to my knowledge Palestinians aren't really ethnically different from other Levantine Muslims...are they?

Because they believe that they should be able to return to their homes, which they can't if they assimilate (not that it's ever likely to happen anyway).

[Hot Meat Pie]

You people keep bashing Turks on acts of genocide, what about Russians who historically and still are murdering thousands of people in the Caucasus? They even held Winter Olympics over the graves of millions of dead Circassians and Chechens!! Russians have done far worse genocide than anyone in history.

When it comes to the Armenian issue, the Armenians were never murdered as a whole only Armenians that had allied themselves with Russia against the Ottoman Empire were killed as traitors otherwise there had never been any Armenian problem throughout 600 years of Ottoman Empire. These Armenians were eating the bread and drinking water of the country (Turkey) they lived in and at the same time wanted to stab that country that sheltered them in the back by allying themselves with the enemy (Russia). That is called betrayal.

[The guy from the Vale]

I'm just as critical of Russia as I am of Turkey. The fact that you need to point out Russia of all places in order to find a worse regime is telling.

As for the Armenians, I think you need to do some research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide may help for a start.

[Hot Meat Pie]

I'm just as critical of Russia as I am of Turkey. The fact that you need to point out Russia of all places in order to find a worse regime is telling.

As for the Armenians, I think you need to do some research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide may help for a start.

There are tons of Armenian Churches in Turkey, about 100,000 Armenians living in Turkey, they have there own newspaper. One Armenian news editor died in 2007 nearly all of Istanbul marched in protest of his murder. Research "Hrant Dink".

If a Turk was killed in Armenia would people have given the same reaction? I doubt it, they would praise the murderer. There are no Turks in Armenia because of how dangerous it is to live there as a Turk.

[The guy from the Vale]

There are also 200'000 Jews living in Germany nowadays. There are synagogues in every major city. That doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't happen. Quite the opposite.

Killing every able-bodied man and then sending the remaining women and children through a desert to starve is genocide. There's just no other word for it.

[Eyron]

I posted the link about the Armenian genocide in my last post, to no avail. The events that led to the coining of the word 'genocide' no less.

I am not bashing on Turks, but Turkey is not perfect. Just like many other nations in the west too. Russia is far from perfect and I doubt anyone has claimed that here?

I am just going to not comment on this further, it's ridiculous.

[The guy from the Vale]

I posted the link about the Armenian genocide in my last post, to no avail. The events that led to the coining of the word 'genocide' no less.

I am not bashing on Turks, but Turkey is not perfect. Just like many other nations in the west too. Russia is far from perfect and I doubt anyone has claimed that here?

I am just going to not comment on this further, it's ridiculous.

Pretty much this.

I think admitting your country's past mistakes is more respectable than trying to bleach the bloody vest every nation in the world has.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Killing every able-bodied man and then sending the remaining women and children through a desert to starve is genocide. There's just no other word for it.

There are no desert regions in Turkey.

[The guy from the Vale]

They were sent to Syria. Which is largely a desert. They were denied any water. But hey. They ultimately died in what is now Syria, so it doesn't count! I guess the Holocast doesn't count either, as Auschwitz was in Poland!