Middle East and North Africa 18

[TrueMetis]

Judaism besides being far older than either of rhe religions you mentioned it also a people. They have cultural and genetic markings they are a tribe. A Jew that leaves his faith is still a Jew.

Cultural Christians and Muslims also exist but they still aren't a single people.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Isis is becoming a bigger threat each passing day their numbers keep growing and are secretly being funded by Wahabbi states like Qatar and Saudi Arabia. The Assad regime will fall sooner or later there is no way the Syrian government can keep this up even with Iranian support that support is limited. When Syria does fall like Iraq did the game will change drastically in the Middle East ISIS may emerge as a global terrorist organization leaving Al Qaeda in the dust and Iran will be isolated in the region with only Lebanon left as an ally which isn't a really significant ally like Syria was and Turkey may emerge as a regional power.

[Arakan]

I would say it's their land based on living there. I don't personally accept colonialist claims to land as legitimate, so part of the Ottoman Empire or not, the majority of the people living there were a group Muslim Arabs now called Palestinians.

What colonialist claims are you talking about? Please specify. Anyway, you live in the past as there is a state existing NOW called Israel. Unless of course you would support an erasion of said state.

We have to accept that Asia Minor lost almost all of its Greek heritage, the Hagia Sophia is not a church anymore and Constantinople is called Istanbul nowadays and the capital of Turkey.

All that "it is their land" talk based on historical claims is revisionist BULLSHIT (in most cases and this is one of those cases). People should live in the here and now and find solutions.

Target should be to find a mutual acceptable solution which nevertheless will need massive sacrifices in terms of claims on both sides. Unfortunately the current Israeli government is full of hardliners as well.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The Hagia Sophia will always be a church.

[Arakan]

The Hagia Sophia will always be a church.

Aha, and I thought it was a mosque after 1455 and is now a museum...

[Eyron]

Well most viiew the west bank more of a strategic depth asset, as before the six day war Israel was basically 18 KM wide and could be cut in half in a 30 minute tank division rush, if caught unaware.

Question is, right to what part of the land? Sure, right to the homes and lands they own, but what abouthe 80% of the land that was owned by no one at the time?

Yeah, that's probably the more sincere answer.

At what time do you mean? And do you mean unpopulated areas on the West bank, or that it wasn't an official state? Wasn't this settled when the line was drawn? I'd say it's owned by Palestine now even if it was ruled by Jordan immediately before the war of 1967 and was part of the British Mandate of Palestine before that. I can understand that Israel wants to control the border to Jordan for security and that a new agreement should consider this at least (not saying official control of the border should necessarily be part of the solution), but the Israeli settlements on the occupied land are a different issue.

A country to live in is not just a sum of all the patches of land owned by someone. It's is not just a stretch of dirt, it's the sources of water (not always situated on land owned by someone, but affected by usage and area development in the whole catchment) and all other common goods, as well the freedom to move freely within it. I've heard the Palestinians have plantations of trees for example, in the surrounding areas, on pieces of land owned by no one. Much like there are common goods everywhere in the world that are used by those living there to survive. Empty land is a little bit of room for future generations and advancements. Things I think the Israelis, like everyone, can appreciate the worth of having.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just because it isn't used doesn't mean it isn't a church. ;)

[Arakan]

Just because it isn't used doesn't mean it isn't a church. ;)

As you are just nitpicking, I suppose you agree with my wider point, all semantics aside ;).

[Eyron]

Just because it isn't used doesn't mean it isn't a church. ;)

If a building is converted from offices to homes, is it still an office building? :P

[aceluby]

Judaism besides being far older than either of rhe religions you mentioned it also a people. They have cultural and genetic markings they are a tribe. A Jew that leaves his faith is still a Jew.

I'm not surprised you have that stance, but coming from a family with a Jewish heritage I'm telling you that some/many people would find what you said extremely offensive. It's like saying all Asians look alike, so they are a tribe with cultural and genetic markings; or that a Muslim/Christian that leaves their faith is still a Muslim/Christian. The only way you could say those things is from a stance of complete ignorance.

[Shryke]

Yeah, that's probably the more sincere answer.

At what time do you mean? And do you mean unpopulated areas on the West bank, or that it wasn't an official state? Wasn't this settled when the line was drawn? I'd say it's owned by Palestine now even if it was ruled by Jordan immediately before the war of 1967 and was part of the British Mandate of Palestine before that. I can understand that Israel wants to control the border to Jordan for security and that a new agreement should consider this at least (not saying official control of the border should necessarily be part of the solution), but the Israeli settlements on the occupied land are a different issue.

A country to live in is not just a sum of all the patches of land owned by someone. It's is not just a stretch of dirt, it's the sources of water (not always situated on land owned by someone, but affected by usage and area development in the whole catchment) and all other common goods, as well the freedom to move freely within it. I've heard the Palestinians have plantations of trees for example, in the surrounding areas, on pieces of land owned by no one. Much like there are common goods everywhere in the world that are used by those living there to survive. Empty land is a little bit of room for future generations and advancements. Things I think the Israelis, like everyone, can appreciate the worth of having.

Most of what we consider the middle east is empty land. Like, here's a good illustration:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5wEFXnCivlo/UMDQl4OhQgI/AAAAAAABGSg/2I7dPFpeCj4/w1585-h890/MIddle%2BEast%2BNight%2BLights.png

Like, all that big black space is still Iraq, even if no one be turning on the lights out there.

I will say, I love the continued use of language that parallels the colonization of the americas in these arguments. Like being in history class again.

[Shryke]

What colonialist claims are you talking about? Please specify. Anyway, you live in the past as there is a state existing NOW called Israel. Unless of course you would support an erasion of said state.

We have to accept that Asia Minor lost almost all of its Greek heritage, the Hagia Sophia is not a church anymore and Constantinople is called Istanbul nowadays and the capital of Turkey.

All that "it is their land" talk based on historical claims is revisionist BULLSHIT (in most cases and this is one of those cases). People should live in the here and now and find solutions.

Target should be to find a mutual acceptable solution which nevertheless will need massive sacrifices in terms of claims on both sides. Unfortunately the current Israeli government is full of hardliners as well.

Uh, she answered your assertion about the here and now in the very post you are quoting:

Right the state exists where it exists, so it doesn't matter if it should have happened or not, except perhaps in terms of reparations to Palestinians and the right of return.

And you were the one that argued the whole historical legitimacy argument for the creation of the state:

What people seemingly don't understand here: it was the wish of the Jewish people to build a state there. A legitimate wish

so it's rather strange that you are now claiming this stuff doesn't matter.

It seems like it's all about historically legitimate claims to the land until it doesn't work for your argument and then it's all about the here and now.

[Eyron]

Most of what we consider the middle east is empty land. Like, here's a good illustration:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5wEFXnCivlo/UMDQl4OhQgI/AAAAAAABGSg/2I7dPFpeCj4/w1585-h890/MIddle%2BEast%2BNight%2BLights.png

Like, all that big black space is still Iraq, even if no one be turning on the lights out there.

I will say, I love the continued use of language that parallels the colonization of the americas in these arguments. Like being in history class again.

I don't know if you are arguing against what I said, or not? I argue that the Palestinians have the right to what was empty land in the West bank as well as the land they owned officially. The rest was just reasons for why "Oh look it's empty, let's grab it" isn't a decent argument for legitimacy to occupy areas that have no settlements (not that existing Palestinian settlements hindered the Israeli anyway). Sorry if I was unclear.

And I made no attempt to parallell the colonisation of the Americas. We had plenty of our own issues regarding that.

[The Once and Future King]

I'm not surprised you have that stance, but coming from a family with a Jewish heritage I'm telling you that some/many people would find what you said extremely offensive. It's like saying all Asians look alike, so they are a tribe with cultural and genetic markings; or that a Muslim/Christian that leaves their faith is still a Muslim/Christian. The only way you could say those things is from a stance of complete ignorance.

[The Once and Future King]

Well for someone with 'Jewish heritage' you are sadly misinformed.

http://m.forward.com/articles/155742

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2p63_Weber.html

not to mention the US Supreme Court.

This is not only a matter of fact but also a Jewish Principle. According to the Jewish religion a Jew can never stop being a Jew. (Rabbi M Shneerson, Rabbi Y Lau, Rabbi M Finestein)

Judaism is a Religion but it is also a ethnicity, a culture and a people. They share a common ancestry, history, and Homeland.

[Shryke]

I don't know if you are arguing against what I said, or not? I argue that the Palestinians have the right to what was empty land in the West bank as well as the land they owned officially. The rest was just reasons for why "Oh look it's empty, let's grab it" isn't a decent argument for legitimacy to occupy areas that have no settlements (not that existing Palestinian settlements hindered the Israeli anyway). Sorry if I was unclear.

And I made no attempt to parallell the colonisation of the Americas. We had plenty of our own issues regarding that.

I'm agreeing with you. I just think that picture does a good job of conveying the idea that while a country like Iraq may be big, that doesn't mean it's not full of empty space and that doesn't mean said empty space isn't still part of Iraq.

And I'm saying the whole "It's empty land" is totally a parallel to excuses for colonialism in the americas.

[The Once and Future King]

I don't know if you are arguing against what I said, or not? I argue that the Palestinians have the right to what was empty land in the West bank as well as the land they owned officially. The rest was just reasons for why "Oh look it's empty, let's grab it" isn't a decent argument for legitimacy to occupy areas that have no settlements (not that existing Palestinian settlements hindered the Israeli anyway). Sorry if I was unclear.

And I made no attempt to parallell the colonisation of the Americas. We had plenty of our own issues regarding that.

[The Once and Future King]

Eira

Are you are talking about current settlements or the arrival in the 20,3O and 40s?

In the first quarter of the century there were about half a million Arabs living in the British Mandate, more than half in the big cities. The vast Majority of what is now Israel was uninhabited wasteland.

[Summah]

Well for someone with 'Jewish heritage' you are sadly misinformed.

This is not only a matter of fact but also a Jewish Principle. According to the Jewish religion a Jew can never stop being a Jew. (Rabbi M Shneerson, Rabbi Y Lau, Rabbi M Finestein)

Judaism is a Religion but it is also a ethnicity, a culture and a people. They share a common ancestry, history, and Homeland.

No multiple ethnicities and cultures, from what you write I think you're not really aware of much beyond ashkenazi Jews, and while yes there are some constant genetic markers, that many Jews tend to look like the people they live amongst means shows that there has been some significant amount of intermarriage with local communities, the different Jewish cultures are also quite obviously influenced by the local cultures where they lived.

[Hot Meat Pie]

Jews are apart of the Levantine group, they cluster with Levantine Arabs (Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis). Arabs in the Levant are genetically more similar to Jews than they are with the Arabs living in the Gulf states of the Arabian Peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, etc,)

By the way it's impossible for Arabs to be "anti-Semitic" because technically Arabs are also Semites, I guess the same could be said for non-Arab Muslims as well since they also follow a Semitic religion.