JonisHenryTudor Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Tudor makes a good point above. Nobody would bring an entourage with them if the protection didn't come under all of themHowever your right the quote doesn't say bread and salt. But this might be a case that a corrupt lawyer could get Walder off on a technicality that everyone knows is bullshit in the real world.Well the good news is that in Westeros it doesn't seem the northerners are too keen on lawyers or legal justice, otherwise you would most likely be right. In this story, the north seems to believe they were slaughtered guests, and Walder and his band of miscreants won't have the chance to argue on a basis of technicalities. I mean they could try but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Of course it was. They had wine, but no food. They didn't partake in their "bread and salt" and they weren't under the Freys roof. The sleaziest lawyer in the world couldn't make that argument work. You don't need to be under a literal roof or to have personally eaten their bread and salt to be a guest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Tudor makes a good point above. Nobody would bring an entourage with them if the protection didn't come under all of themHowever your right the quote doesn't say bread and salt. But this might be a case that a corrupt lawyer could get Walder off on a technicality that everyone knows is bullshit in the real world. Except it isn't BS. The Freys that took part in the killing or planning of the RW of breaking guest rights, but it's highly debatable if the soldiers outside had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The sleaziest lawyer in the world couldn't make that argument work. You don't need to be under a literal roof or to have personally eaten their bread and salt to be a guest. Yes. I am pretty sure that is all figurative. It's not like they drew up a guest rights codex..."Any guest invited under your roof whom eats carrots, beef, pork, poultry, salt, bread, rice, and potatoes are protected under the law of _____. However, if you only consume fish and beets, you may be slaughtered. Also, one must be directly under the roof of the great hall." The first time a lord invited someone under guest rights, the potential attendee would likely say "to hell with this, way too complicated. Thanks fo rthe invite but we will discuss terms via raven". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Except it isn't BS. The Freys that took part in the killing or planning of the RW of breaking guest rights, but it's highly debatable if the soldiers outside had it. I don't think it is. Truce or peace offerings were expected to be extended to the entire retinue. In medieval Europe, a lord didn't bring his entire army into the host's keep. That was impossible. They all camped outside under the hosts protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie^^ Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Roslin seems quite nice, I think :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The sleaziest lawyer in the world couldn't make that argument work. You don't need to be under a literal roof or to have personally eaten their bread and salt to be a guest. You said that everyone in universe says that the soldiers had guest rights. Where are the quotes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes. I am pretty sure that is all figurative. It's not like they drew up a guest rights codex..."Any guest invited under your roof whom eats carrots, beef, pork, poultry, salt, bread, rice, and potatoes are protected under the law of _____. However, if you only consume fish and beets, you may be slaughtered. Also, one must be directly under the roof of the great hall." The first time a lord invited someone under guest rights, the potential attendee would likely say "to hell with this, way too complicated. Thanks fo rthe invite but we will discuss terms via raven". Exactly. Also anyone out of salt and no bread on hand wouldn't be able to invite people into their home for fear of being murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 You said that everyone in universe says that the soldiers had guest rights. Where are the quotes? I didn't say that. I said no one in the story has made a distinction between the guests in the tents and the guest in the hall. Which is true. Sorry I can't demonstrate a lack of quotes with a quote. There's no distinction between the guest in the tents and the guests in the hall it's all the same event. No one in the story makes that distinction, not even the Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I didn't say that. I said no one in the stories has made a distinction between the guests in the tents and the guest in the hall. Which is true. Sorry I can't demonstrate a lack of quotes with a quote. Even then I think the entire thing is also a matter of perspective. I don't have the quotes either atm, but those who supported the Starks or were sympathetic to them found the entire action repulsive. I also do not think anyone made any distinctions between the two either. For observers or commentators, the entire event was a travesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 OP: Read the god damn books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Onion Kniggit Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Lol love that! I'm curious about the outlaw Frey listed in the appendix. Can't remember his name off the top of my head Aegon or Aemon maybe? Think he had a strange nickname too, something to do with blood? Kinda suspect we might already have met him under a false name. Maybe with the brotherhood? Bloodborn and Jingebell are both named Aegon Frey and Aemon Rivers is a bastards Seriously though, the Freys need to come up with their own god damn names instead of stealing it from the Targaryens and Lannisters. I mean come on Tywin Frey lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I mean come on Tywin Frey lol? Don't forget his siblings Cersei and Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Don't forget his siblings Cersei and Jaime. I was just going to say that! Had a good chuckle when I came across that in the Frey Family tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I didn't say that. I said no one in the story has made a distinction between the guests in the tents and the guest in the hall. Which is true. Sorry I can't demonstrate a lack of quotes with a quote. No ones mentioned them. Period. In fact, from what Tywin says it's only the people at the wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 :agree: Catelyn was a good person, a loving mother and wife, a shrewd diplomat (with failings, of course, she was human), embracing the Tully credo of family, duty, honor to the core. Lady Stoneheart is none of these things, human included, she's vengeance personified, even if enough of Catelyn's memories remain to focus that vengeance mostly against the Freys and others that she thinks harmed her family.Well to be fair, Stoneheart has so far killed only the Freys involved in the Red Wedding. So it's not all that bad, so far. In fact, her trials are a good deal more just than the laughable example of Tyrion's regicide trial. There were Freys in the Vale, Westerlands and across the Narrow Sea who probably weren't involved either. The women and children probably weren't and many of the adukt men probably just did nothing (all I did was drink). It would be like condemning Ned fpr keeping his job as Hand when Robert sent assassins after Dany. Yes, this, in addition to the others already mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I don't know if I believe anyone is 100% a dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistressofWhisperers Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 To get them drunk. But they weren't under the Freys roof or share in their bread and salt. They were housing them under their own tent roofs. Oh come now, they were clearly violating the spirit, if not the letter, of the law/tradition/custom/religious rite/whatever. They were killing people underneath a banner of peace, to imply otherwise because of some minor geographic technicality, using the ulterior motives of the perpetrators as an excuse, is disingenuous. If Robb's host had trespassed onto Frey territory after the Freys defected from Robb, then yes, I would agree, they had every right to attack them, but when the Freys invited them all to share in the wedding merriment (aka booze and music) then these are guests and killing them is a violation. I agree with you that they likely only gave them booze to make them drunk and vulnerable, but this just emphasizes the true reprehensibility of their motives. ETA: Just caught up and I can see I'm just echoing what others are saying. Here are some more quotes from the camps outside: Serving men were turning joints of meat on spits above the flames. The smells made Arya’s mouth water. “Shouldn’t we stop?” she asked Sandor Clegane. “There’s northmen in the tents.” She knew them by their beards, by their faces, by their cloaks of bearskin and sealskin, by their half-heard toasts and the songs they sang; Karstarks and Umbers and men of the mountain clans. (Indicating that Robb's men were eating as well as drinking.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I don't know if I believe anyone is 100% a dick. Is that from something? sounds really familiar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 They were housing them under their own tent roofs. Oh come now, they were clearly violating the spirit, if not the letter, of the law/tradition/custom/religious rite/whatever. They were killing people underneath a banner of peace. If Robb's host had trespassed onto Frey territory after the Freys defected from Robb, then yes, I would agree, they had every right to attack them, but when the Freys invited them all to share in the wedding merriment (aka booze and music) then these are guests and killing them is a violation. I agree with you that they likely only gave them booze to make them drunk and vulnerable, but this just emphasizes the true reprehensibility of their motives. ETA: Just caught up and I can see I'm just echoing what others are saying. Here are some more quotes from the camps outside: Serving men were turning joints of meat on spits above the flames. The smells made Arya’s mouth water. “Shouldn’t we stop?” she asked Sandor Clegane. “There’s northmen in the tents.” She knew them by their beards, by their faces, by their cloaks of bearskin and sealskin, by their half-heard toasts and the songs they sang; Karstarks and Umbers and men of the mountain clans. (Indicating that Robb's men were eating as well as drinking.) Tents aren't rooves. You're stretching. Was it treacherous? Yes. Was it a breech of guest rights? Not necessarily. They were eating their own food most likely.They Freys expressly denied them food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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