Red Crabs, Spiders and Conquerors - The Others revealed

[Voice]

I love how fucking deep you guys are going on this.

https://comm2302metafiction.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/25479610.jpg?w=300&h=300

BOOO, naysayers. Everything has a double meaning.. that’s if it doesn’t have a triple meaning and if you mess wit us, we will prove that your MOM was a secret Targaryen, and that you’re Tyrion’s cousin. Woot.

:cheers: Woot indeed Ser... Woot indeed :D

[LmL]

Chuckles good Ser, chuckles.

[Evolett]

Another quote for your angle Evolett... the rosetta stone that bridges the gap between food-porn, and battle-forces. There's even mention of a sister and stew :D

I see what you mean :agree:

[Evolett]

Another quote for your angle Evolett... the rosetta stone that bridges the gap between food-porn, and battle-forces. There's even mention of a sister and stew :D

ADWD Jon VII:

He wondered how many men old Crowfood would bring to the fray, and how many swords Arnolf Karstark would be able to conjure up. Half the Umbers would be across the field with Whoresbane, fighting beneath the flayed man of the Dreadfort, and the greater part of the strength of both houses had gone south with Robb, never to return. Even ruined, Winterfell itself would confer a considerable advantage on whoever held it. Robert Baratheon would have seen that at once and moved swiftly to secure the castle, with the forced marches and midnight rides for which he had been famous. Would his brother be as bold?

Not likely. Stannis was a deliberate commander, and his host was a half-digested stew of clansmen, southron knights, king's men and queen's men, salted with a few northern lords. He should move on Winterfell swiftly, or not at all, Jon thought. It was not his place to advise the king, but …

He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis, though undercut by that final, brutal if I can and the addendum and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre's flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she's just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

These quotes set me thinking. One part of my theory I'm unhappy with concerns the 'conqueror crabs'. It's easy to assume they represent the top dogs and also to place the Ancient Others at the top of the hierarchy, but I've found no parallels in the story. I suppose I could put Ramsey in this role because of his hunting practices and the dogs. I suppose he could serve as a 'conqueror' - he took Winterfell and Moat Cailin but somehow it doesn't feel right. There is still Roose who does exercise control over Ramsey. Ramsey himself 'feels' more like the foemen in the other quote. Passages similar to the above might hold a few clues. Hm, still chewing on this one.

[LmL]

These quotes set me thinking. One part of my theory I'm unhappy with concerns the 'conqueror crabs'. It's easy to assume they represent the top dogs and also to place the Ancient Others at the top of the hierarchy, but I've found no parallels in the story. I suppose I could put Ramsey in this role because of his hunting practices and the dogs. I suppose he could serve as a 'conqueror' - he took Winterfell and Moat Cailin but somehow it doesn't feel right. There is still Roose who does exercise control over Ramsey. Ramsey himself 'feels' more like the foemen in the other quote. Passages similar to the above might hold a few clues. Hm, still chewing on this one.

This spider crab punnery is so lively it just leaps right off the page.

[Voice]

This spider crab punnery is so lively it just leaps right off the page.

And onto our faces to lay eggs...

Lol

[LmL]

You forgot to use the word "ovipositor," you always gotta jump on those opportunities when they show their face, know what I mean?

[LmL]

Westeros.org comedy hour everyone! *cue theme music*

[Seams]

The most remarkable part of the conversation between Lord Borrell and Davos is the description of the food.

The black bread served with the creamy white stew invoke wights and the different species of crab are quite revealing. Borrell feels like half a cannibal when he eats spider crabs. After all GRRMs allusions to Craster and his daughter wives, one cannot help but feel that the white spider crabs represent Crasters sons. Why should Borrell feel like a cannibal for eating them otherwise?

. . .

Im not going to speculate on whether or not Lord Borrell sacrifices his sons to the Others but the above passage clearly equates white spider crabs with Crasters sacrificed sons. The conquerors (conqueror crabs) are easily identified. They characterize the big bosses, the leaders of the Others, perhaps the very ones Old Nan talks about. The red crabs represent spiders (or perhaps wights).

We can assume the following hierarchy:

Conquerors: Generals of the Others (have appeared only in Old Nans tales of the Long Night).

Spider Crabs: Regular Others, perhaps the mentioned White Walkers, most likely Crasters sons

Black bread and creamy white stew: Wights.

Red Crabs: White Spiders ridden by the Conquerors.

This is fascinating stuff, Evolett. Nice work.

For a couple of discussions in this forum, I have found myself going back to re-read the scene where Tyrion joins Lord Commander Mormont and other ranking men of the Night's Watch for a dinner of crab, freshly-delivered from Eastwatch-by-the-sea:

"My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me. He may decide that you have convinced me to take the black."

"Would that I could." Mormont picked up a crab claw and cracked it in his fist. Old as he was, the Lord Commander still had the strength of a bear. "Youre a cunning man, Tyrion. We have need of men of your sort on the Wall."

Tyrion grinned. "Then shall I scour the Seven Kingdoms for dwarfs and ship them all to you, Lord Mormont." As they laughed, he sucked the meat from a crab leg and reached for another. The crabs had arrived from Eastwatch only this morning, packed in a barrel of snow, and they were succulent.

Ser Alliser Thorne was the only man at the table who did not so much as crack a smile. "Lannister mocks us."

"Only you, Ser Alliser," Tyrion said. This time the laughter round the table had a nervous, uncertain quality to it.

Thornes black eyes fixed on Tyrion with loathing. "You have a bold tongue for someone who is less than half a man. Perhaps you and I should visit the yard together."

"Why?" asked Tyrion. "The crabs are here."

The remark brought more guffaws from the others. Ser Alliser stood up, his mouth a tight line. "Come and make your japes with steel in your hand."

Tyrion looked pointedly at his right hand. "Why, I have steel in my hand, Ser Alliser, although it appears to be a crab fork. Shall we duel?" He hopped up on his chair and began poking at Thornes chest with the tiny fork. Roars of laughter filled the tower room. Bits of crab flew from the Lord Commanders mouth as he began to gasp and choke. Even his raven joined in, cawing loudly from above the window. "Duel! Duel! Duel!"

Ser Alliser Thorne walked from the room so stiffly it looked as though he had a dagger up his butt.

Mormont was still gasping for breath. Tyrion pounded him on the back. "To the victor goes the spoils," he called out. "I claim Thorne's share of the crabs."

In light of your good catch of the crab symbolism, and with knowledge of later plot developments, many layers of meaning are added to this scene. Does the exchange foreshadow events that will occur in Mormont, Thorne and Tyrion's stories? Is Tyrion identifying Thorne as one of the Others (or a future Other) by mockingly attacking him with a crab fork? Mormont will eventually assign Thorne to Eastwatch, where the crabs originated. The crabs arrived in barrels, however, and were packed in snow. We know that Tyrion will eventually make a journey in a barrel, although I believe it is a wine barrel. "Packed in snow" is most likely an allusion to the nearest member of the Stark family, but what does it mean? Crabs that die are packed in snow: To keep them succulent? To show that Jon Snow will cause the Others to die? Of course, at this point, Ramsey Bolton is also using the surname Snow. Does he figure into this crab allegory?

Lord Mormont doesn't need a fork to crack a crab claw, but Tyrion does. Mormont's sword, which he will soon give to Jon, is called Long Claw. What is the significance?

Thorne trains new NW recruits to fight with swords but he has no respect for them. Is he figuratively already on the side of the Others and, like Craster, sending young boys to the Others with the certain knowledge that they will perish?

Tyrion is acting like a GRRM Fool in this scene. There is another Thorne connection to fools, as he says he would have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than Jon would have training Sam Tarley to use a sword. We know that Fools in ASOIAF seem to share insights in the form of riddles and seemingly-nonsense, random phrases. What is it about Thorne that causes these Fool associations? Should we assume that others who interact with him are showing wise insights, prophecies and foreshadowing, even if they don't act quite as Fool-ish as Tyrion does in this scene?

To underscore the symbolism (and definitely to support your discovery of the crab/Other connection) GRRM gives us a second crab-related and Other-related interaction between Thorne and Tyrion, when Ser Alliser brings the severed hand that attacked Mormont to King's Landing, hoping it will show the Court that the threat of the Others is serious:

"This is no jape. I saw it with my own eyes. I tell you, the dead walk."

"You should try to kill them more thoroughly." Tyrion pushed past. Ser Alliser made to grab his sleeve, but Preston Greenfield thrust him back. "No closer, ser."

Thorne knew better than to challenge a knight of the Kingsguard. "You are a fool, Imp," he shouted at Tyrions back.

The dwarf turned to face him. "Me? Truly? Then why were they laughing at you, I wonder." He smiled wanly. "You came for men, did you not?"

"The cold winds are rising. The wall must be held."

"And to hold it you need men, which I've given you . . . as you might have noted, if your ears heard anything but insults. Take them and thank me, and begone before I'm forced to take a crab fork to you again. Give my warm regards to Lord Mormont . . . and to Jon Snow as well." Bronn seized Ser Alliser by the elbow and marched him forcefully from the hall.

In the earlier interaction, Tyrion had steel in his hand; now he is serving as Hand of the King.

Thorne tries to grab Tyrion's sleeve - last time we saw that, it was the direwolf Ghost (Aha, Ghost. Hmmm.) grabbing at Tyrion's sleeve and tearing the fabric. And here Ser Alliser calls Tyrion a fool, just to eliminate any doubt.

I'm also struck by the fact that this Lannister sends his regards in this scene, foreshadowing Roose Bolton's words at the Red Wedding. And we know that both Mormont and Jon will encounter treacherous steel blades later in the series. We don't believe Tyrion is putting out a hit on Mormont and Jon - his regards are intended sincerely, we assume.

In the earlier scene with Mormont at the crab feast, the Lord Commander separately notes that the NW needs men like Tyrion and like Alliser Thorne. Like Tyrion because he is cunning, and like Thorne because he is a knight who fights bravely. I think it's not a coincidence that Mormont's raven picks up and repeats the word "Duel" out of the dialogue. I think GRRM may be giving us a pun on the word "dual," and implying that Thorne and Tyrion are a pair of opposites who should be both compared and contrasted as the stories develop.

But I may be wandering too far from the crab focus. In the second excerpt I quote in this post, Ser Alliser is seeking more recruits for the NW. This could be an extension of his Craster-like role in providing fodder for the Others to slay when the young men range beyond the Wall. Or maybe he is sincere in understanding that the Wall and the Night's Watch should be priorities for support and aid from the capitol city.

I wonder whether Thorne and Tyrion will meet again?

[LmL]

great comments there, I'm short on time, but I will say that crabs packed in snow reminds me of the usurpers troops Dany fights at the Trident in her dreams.

And of course, Jon Snow dreams of standing atop the wall holding Lightbringer, armored in black ice.

If crabs are Others, it may be suggesting that the Starks have Other blood in them. Crabs inside snow = Other Blood inside the Kings of Winter

[Lost Melnibonean]

The George has used crabs the same as he's used crows, as carrion crawlers picking over the dead, especially on battlefields. Everywhere the dragons dance the people will die. Daenerys is thed Targaryen dragon. Aegon is the mummer's dragon, filling the role of the greens this round. Jon is the Conqueror's true heir.

[LmL]

The George has used crabs the same as he's used crows, as carrion crawlers picking over the dead, especially on battlefields. Everywhere the dragons dance the people will die. Daenerys is thed Targaryen dragon. Aegon is the mummer's dragon, filling the role of the greens this round. Jon is the Conqueror's true heir.

All true, but remember that George has various things pulling triple duty as symbols. Crabs and crows are used just as you say, but in certain instances crows are also a metaphorical stand in for dragons, or meteors, or various other things. There are certain commonalities between crows and crabs, carrion feeders, and Others, so it's a pretty understandable analogy.

For instance, George hides "sun kills moon" imagery all over the place, but sometimes the person he borrows to play the sun role is not really a "sun symbolism" person in the main. In one scene. Littlefinger stands in for Azor Ahai (the sun), but for the most part his symbolism is about mermaids, mockingbirds, etc. George bends things how he needs to sneak the clues in without disturbing the story. This spider crab stuff is absolutely deliciously creepy metaphor. And it evokes the ice spiders, which are going to be a thing.

[Voice]

This is fascinating stuff, Evolett. Nice work.

Hey, where is Evolett? Haven't heard from her in a while...

For a couple of discussions in this forum, I have found myself going back to re-read the scene where Tyrion joins Lord Commander Mormont and other ranking men of the Night's Watch for a dinner of crab, freshly-delivered from Eastwatch-by-the-sea:

In light of your good catch of the crab symbolism, and with knowledge of later plot developments, many layers of meaning are added to this scene. Does the exchange foreshadow events that will occur in Mormont, Thorne and Tyrion's stories? Is Tyrion identifying Thorne as one of the Others (or a future Other) by mockingly attacking him with a crab fork? Mormont will eventually assign Thorne to Eastwatch, where the crabs originated. The crabs arrived in barrels, however, and were packed in snow. We know that Tyrion will eventually make a journey in a barrel, although I believe it is a wine barrel. "Packed in snow" is most likely an allusion to the nearest member of the Stark family, but what does it mean? Crabs that die are packed in snow: To keep them succulent? To show that Jon Snow will cause the Others to die? Of course, at this point, Ramsey Bolton is also using the surname Snow. Does he figure into this crab allegory?

Nice layering, Ser!

As to Ramsay, he fits in because he hunts with packs of hounds from atop his mount... as the Ancient Others rode giant ice spiders, and hunted the living with their packs of spiders as big as hounds...

Lord Mormont doesn't need a fork to crack a crab claw, but Tyrion does. Mormont's sword, which he will soon give to Jon, is called Long Claw. What is the significance?

The bear's claws are mightier than the lion's? The bear's claw will slay Others, while Tyrion will poke at lesser foemen with a less glorious weapon (at the forks of the Trident)?

Thorne trains new NW recruits to fight with swords but he has no respect for them. Is he figuratively already on the side of the Others and, like Craster, sending young boys to the Others with the certain knowledge that they will perish?

The avarice of thorns like Thorne are already poking true brothers in the arse. Mayhaps his folly will eventually have real consequences, like by unintentionally allowing the Others through the Wall as he's antagonizing Jon.

Tyrion is acting like a GRRM Fool in this scene. There is another Thorne connection to fools, as he says he would have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than Jon would have training Sam Tarley to use a sword. We know that Fools in ASOIAF seem to share insights in the form of riddles and seemingly-nonsense, random phrases. What is it about Thorne that causes these Fool associations? Should we assume that others who interact with him are showing wise insights, prophecies and foreshadowing, even if they don't act quite as Fool-ish as Tyrion does in this scene?

To underscore the symbolism (and definitely to support your discovery of the crab/Other connection) GRRM gives us a second crab-related and Other-related interaction between Thorne and Tyrion, when Ser Alliser brings the severed hand that attacked Mormont to King's Landing, hoping it will show the Court that the threat of the Others is serious:

In the earlier interaction, Tyrion had steel in his hand; now he is serving as Hand of the King.

Thorne tries to grab Tyrion's sleeve - last time we saw that, it was the direwolf Ghost (Aha, Ghost. Hmmm.) grabbing at Tyrion's sleeve and tearing the fabric. And here Ser Alliser calls Tyrion a fool, just to eliminate any doubt.

Some will say you're reaching, I say you're brilliant. Nice catch.

I'm also struck by the fact that this Lannister sends his regards in this scene, foreshadowing Roose Bolton's words at the Red Wedding. And we know that both Mormont and Jon will encounter treacherous steel blades later in the series. We don't believe Tyrion is putting out a hit on Mormont and Jon - his regards are intended sincerely, we assume.

Yet he was not at all surprised by the events of the Red Wedding, and immediately put the pieces together that his father had a hand in the matter...

In the earlier scene with Mormont at the crab feast, the Lord Commander separately notes that the NW needs men like Tyrion and like Alliser Thorne. Like Tyrion because he is cunning, and like Thorne because he is a knight who fights bravely. I think it's not a coincidence that Mormont's raven picks up and repeats the word "Duel" out of the dialogue. I think GRRM may be giving us a pun on the word "dual," and implying that Thorne and Tyrion are a pair of opposites who should be both compared and contrasted as the stories develop.

The Hedge Knight:

"A fool and a knight?" said Jonquil. "I have never heard of such a thing."

"Sweet lady," said Florian, "all men are fools, and all men are knights, where women are concerned."

Hmm. Then who's the lady at the Wall? Mel? I think not.

Later in THK...

Dunk had not considered that. If not the old man's winged chalice, what? His head was empty. Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall. "I don't . . . I'm not certain." His ears were turning red, he realized miserably.

"You must think me an utter fool."

She smiled. "All men are fools, and all men are knights."

A "duality" indeed. Still I wonder, who is "she"...

Might there be another lady holding the strings?

A "pale woman" perchance? :devil:

But I may be wandering too far from the crab focus. In the second excerpt I quote in this post, Ser Alliser is seeking more recruits for the NW. This could be an extension of his Craster-like role in providing fodder for the Others to slay when the young men range beyond the Wall. Or maybe he is sincere in understanding that the Wall and the Night's Watch should be priorities for support and aid from the capitol city.

I think he's sincere. While not obliquely in league with the Others, he is responsible, in any case, for degrading the men of the Night's Watch. And we know the Wall is only as strong as the Men who walk it.

I wonder whether Thorne and Tyrion will meet again?

I'm reminded of the parable of the Lion with a thorn in his paw....

Anyway, good stuff. You don't miss much, do you, Seams? We could use a man like you on the Wall. :cheers:

[Voice]

The George has used crabs the same as he's used crows, as carrion crawlers picking over the dead, especially on battlefields. Everywhere the dragons dance the people will die. Daenerys is thed Targaryen dragon. Aegon is the mummer's dragon, filling the role of the greens this round. Jon is the Conqueror's true heir.

Technically speaking, the true heir of the Conqueror, Aerys II Targaryen, passed over his eldest son Rhaegar, and named his younger son Viserys as his heir. This removed Rhaegar's children from the succession, however legitimate or illegitimate they might be, making Daenerys the "true heir."

[LmL]

is there any hard evidence of his officially naming Viserys heir? It was certainly suggested as something he threatened to do - was there something else I missed that confirmed it?

[Voice]

is there any hard evidence of his officially naming Viserys heir? It was certainly suggested as something he threatened to do - was there something else I missed that confirmed it?

Yes, Elio confirmed the statement in the worldbook as being reliable... I don't have the quote handy but I'll look for it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Technically speaking, the true heir of the Conqueror, Aerys II Targaryen, passed over his eldest son Rhaegar, and named his younger son Viserys as his heir. This removed Rhaegar's children from the succession, however legitimate or illegitimate they might be, making Daenerys the "true heir."

Citation please...

ETA

Are thinking about Rhaella's crowning of Viserys on Dragonstone?

[Voice]

Ah, here it is...

TWOIAF - The Fall of the Dragons: The End

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.

And you can verify the exchange below regarding the true heir here. Aerys passed over Rhaegar's children in favor of Viserys III. It is known ;)

I have another error - in the passage in the book discussing Robert's rebellion, Viserys is referred to as King Aerys II's "new heir" after the death of Rhaegar when the babe Aegon is still alive (this would be after the Battle of the Trident but before the Sack of King's Landing).

For example, King Edward III of England was succeeded by his 8 year old grandson Richard II. Edward had other sons, but Richard was the son of Edward's son & heir, Edward the Black Prince, who had pre-deceased King Edward III.

So, primogeniture demands that VIserys would NOT be the heir so long as Rhaegar's son Aegon was alive, baby or not. Viserys would be AFTER Aegon.

Not an error. Primogeniture is customary, but not binding... especially not to a king. We have other examples of people being passed over, or potentially passed over, for others.

Maester Yandel is merely reporting based on historical records on events of the time.

Thus, Rhaegar's trueborn children were passed over. Dany is King Viserys III's true heir.

[Voice]

Citation please...

ETA

Are thinking about Rhaella's crowning of Viserys on Dragonstone?

LOL No. Citation above :)

[Lost Melnibonean]

Ah, here it is...

TWOIAF - The Fall of the Dragons: The End

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.

And you can verify the exchange below regarding the true heir here. Aerys passed over Rhaegar's children in favor of Viserys III. It is known ;)

Thus, Rhaegar's trueborn children were passed over. Dany is King Viserys III's true heir.

Thanks for the citation. I see what you mean. However, unless Aerys specifically attainted Aegon, all he did was elevate Viserys, so that Aegon, and Rhaegar's other son about to be born true, would be Viserys's heir. And, assuming Aerys had outlived Viserys, Aegon would then have been the heir apparent if not the crown prince.

ETA

It is known that you are almost a cow. ;)