Red Crabs, Spiders and Conquerors - The Others revealed

[Voice]

Thanks for the citation. I see what you mean. However, unless Aerys specifically attainted Aegon, all he did was elevate Viserys, so that Aegon, and Rhaegar's other son about to be born true, would be Viserys's heir. And, assuming Aerys had outlived Viserys, Aegon would then have been the heir apparent if not the crown prince.

ETA

It is known that you are almost a cow. ;)

That's not how it works I'm afraid. Dany would still come before Jon in the succession.

And even that is assuming Jon was trueborn, which is not known...

Rhaegar's half-dornish children were excluded by Aerys. We now have one more reason to hate him: he was racist.

[LmL]

I'm still not reading that as Rhaegar being passed over - isn't this statement about Viserys being the new heir made after Rhaegar's death?

[Lost Melnibonean]

That's not how it works I'm afraid. Dany would still come before Jon in the succession.

And even that is assuming Jon was trueborn, which is not known...

Rhaegar's half-dornish children were excluded by Aerys. We now have one more reason to hate him: he was racist.

I see he cursed the Dornish, but I don't see where he excluded Aegon and Rhaenys from the line of succession.

Precedents in Targaryen succession dictate that any male heir stands before a female.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm still not reading that as Rhaegar being passed over - isn't this statement about Viserys being the new heir made after Rhaegar's death?

Yeah, but Aegon woulda still been alive.

[Voice]

Yeah, but Aegon woulda still been alive.

Exactly. Hence mrlopez's dilemma, below, and Elio's clarification. A lot of R+L=J fans like the idea of Jon on the throne, and why not? A bastard-rags to crowned-riches story. It's quaint.

But GRRM is not a happily ever after kind of guy. I think Jon's fate is in the north... hence the weirwood-colored direwolf. He's got too much of the north in him. He'll never take that road south.

I have another error - in the passage in the book discussing Robert's rebellion, Viserys is referred to as King Aerys II's "new heir" after the death of Rhaegar when the babe Aegon is still alive (this would be after the Battle of the Trident but before the Sack of King's Landing).

For example, King Edward III of England was succeeded by his 8 year old grandson Richard II. Edward had other sons, but Richard was the son of Edward's son & heir, Edward the Black Prince, who had pre-deceased King Edward III.

So, primogeniture demands that VIserys would NOT be the heir so long as Rhaegar's son Aegon was alive, baby or not. Viserys would be AFTER Aegon.

Not an error. Primogeniture is customary, but not binding... especially not to a king. We have other examples of people being passed over, or potentially passed over, for others.

Maester Yandel is merely reporting based on historical records on events of the time.

[LmL]

I agree that Jon is not likely to actually going to sit the throne. I think he importance of his parentage will be primarily magical.

[Evolett]

This is fascinating stuff, Evolett. Nice work.

For a couple of discussions in this forum, I have found myself going back to re-read the scene where Tyrion joins Lord Commander Mormont and other ranking men of the Night's Watch for a dinner of crab, freshly-delivered from Eastwatch-by-the-sea:

In light of your good catch of the crab symbolism, and with knowledge of later plot developments, many layers of meaning are added to this scene. Does the exchange foreshadow events that will occur in Mormont, Thorne and Tyrion's stories? Is Tyrion identifying Thorne as one of the Others (or a future Other) by mockingly attacking him with a crab fork? Mormont will eventually assign Thorne to Eastwatch, where the crabs originated. The crabs arrived in barrels, however, and were packed in snow. We know that Tyrion will eventually make a journey in a barrel, although I believe it is a wine barrel. "Packed in snow" is most likely an allusion to the nearest member of the Stark family, but what does it mean? Crabs that die are packed in snow: To keep them succulent? To show that Jon Snow will cause the Others to die? Of course, at this point, Ramsey Bolton is also using the surname Snow. Does he figure into this crab allegory?

Lord Mormont doesn't need a fork to crack a crab claw, but Tyrion does. Mormont's sword, which he will soon give to Jon, is called Long Claw. What is the significance?

Thorne trains new NW recruits to fight with swords but he has no respect for them. Is he figuratively already on the side of the Others and, like Craster, sending young boys to the Others with the certain knowledge that they will perish?

Tyrion is acting like a GRRM Fool in this scene. There is another Thorne connection to fools, as he says he would have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than Jon would have training Sam Tarley to use a sword. We know that Fools in ASOIAF seem to share insights in the form of riddles and seemingly-nonsense, random phrases. What is it about Thorne that causes these Fool associations? Should we assume that others who interact with him are showing wise insights, prophecies and foreshadowing, even if they don't act quite as Fool-ish as Tyrion does in this scene?

To underscore the symbolism (and definitely to support your discovery of the crab/Other connection) GRRM gives us a second crab-related and Other-related interaction between Thorne and Tyrion, when Ser Alliser brings the severed hand that attacked Mormont to King's Landing, hoping it will show the Court that the threat of the Others is serious:

In the earlier interaction, Tyrion had steel in his hand; now he is serving as Hand of the King.

Thorne tries to grab Tyrion's sleeve - last time we saw that, it was the direwolf Ghost (Aha, Ghost. Hmmm.) grabbing at Tyrion's sleeve and tearing the fabric. And here Ser Alliser calls Tyrion a fool, just to eliminate any doubt.

I'm also struck by the fact that this Lannister sends his regards in this scene, foreshadowing Roose Bolton's words at the Red Wedding. And we know that both Mormont and Jon will encounter treacherous steel blades later in the series. We don't believe Tyrion is putting out a hit on Mormont and Jon - his regards are intended sincerely, we assume.

In the earlier scene with Mormont at the crab feast, the Lord Commander separately notes that the NW needs men like Tyrion and like Alliser Thorne. Like Tyrion because he is cunning, and like Thorne because he is a knight who fights bravely. I think it's not a coincidence that Mormont's raven picks up and repeats the word "Duel" out of the dialogue. I think GRRM may be giving us a pun on the word "dual," and implying that Thorne and Tyrion are a pair of opposites who should be both compared and contrasted as the stories develop.

But I may be wandering too far from the crab focus. In the second excerpt I quote in this post, Ser Alliser is seeking more recruits for the NW. This could be an extension of his Craster-like role in providing fodder for the Others to slay when the young men range beyond the Wall. Or maybe he is sincere in understanding that the Wall and the Night's Watch should be priorities for support and aid from the capitol city.

I wonder whether Thorne and Tyrion will meet again?

Really great stuff, thanks for sharing this! I've continued investigating the crab symbolism since the first write up and can't get over the feeling that there's something not quite right regarding my interpretation. The excerpts you've dug out plus your insights only serve to strengthen my suspicions. I think we will see a variety of Others, the crabs representing one of those factions but not the white walkers. The crab fork that Tyrion uses against Thorne (I would agree that he represents an Other) appears to be significant here. We've seen that obsidian is effective against the white walkers and that steel and fire will serve for the wights. The crab fork doesn't fit into any of these categories, at least none that I can think of. In fact, seeing as seafood in general is eaten with special cutlery and that Tyrion is explicitly using a crab fork gives me the impression that a different kind of weapon may be required for the 'crab faction' of Others. A fork resembles a trident and a quick search reveals that the Manderlys' sigil not only features a merman holding a trident, but their household troops and foot soldiers carry tridents in place of spears. They appear to be the only ones to do so. The crabs are packed in ice to keep them fresh... if we apply this to white walkers, it could be a reference to their need for icy conditions to be able to operate at all. Applied to a different faction, this could mean the same thing but it could also mean they are hidden in ice (much like Tyrion was concealed in the wine barrel).

....... Just received visitors - got to go now, be back later...

[Voice]

I agree that Jon is not likely to actually going to sit the throne. I think he importance of his parentage will be primarily magical.

Very much agreed. He will remain in the North. Regardless of who his father was, he really doesn't have a claim so long as Dany lives.

The crab fork that Tyrion uses against Thorne (I would agree that he represents an Other) appears to be significant here. We've seen that obsidian is effective against the white walkers and that steel and fire will serve for the wights. The crab fork doesn't fit into any of these categories, at least none that I can think of. In fact, seeing as seafood in general is eaten with special cutlery and that Tyrion is explicitly using a crab fork gives me the impression that a different kind of weapon may be required for the 'crab faction' of Others. A fork resembles a trident and a quick search reveals that the Manderlys' sigil not only features a merman holding a trident, but their household troops and foot soldiers carry tridents in place of spears. They appear to be the only ones to do so. The crabs are packed in ice to keep them fresh... if we apply this to white walkers, it could be a reference to their need for icy conditions to be able to operate at all. Applied to a different faction, this could mean the same thing but it could also mean they are hidden in ice (much like Tyrion was concealed in the wine barrel).

A few things...

Different weapon for crab faction:

I can't help but think of the Ancient Others riding Ice Spiders... which reminds me I need to change my sigil on westeros.org. But anyway, yeah, Ice Spiders, Ancient Others....Dragonsteel.

I don't think the Manderlys will play a significant role against the Others, unless they return Rickon and restore the Stark in Winterfell.

And now, the good stuff :)

A trident is not all that much unlike a frog spear from the crannog. And crannogmen, while they are not imps, are quite small...

Meera moved in a wary circle, her net dangling loose in her left hand, the slender three-pronged frog spear poised in her right. Summer followed her with his golden eyes, turning, his tail held stiff and tall. Watching, watching . . .

Summer followed Meera's fork. Maybe it will again.

And we know a little crannogman once bested the greatest knight in the realm, the Sword of the Morning, Ser Arthur Dayne himself. Maybe Howland+Lyanna=Jon? Not a popular theory, but it would help with this line of reasoning.

Anyway, I tend to think Dawn is the ultimate enemy of the true Others (the ones we haven't seen since the long night). Dawn of the Day(ne) is no friend to a form of life that can only thrive by night.

If Night's King is still hanging out with them (which I think he is), we must remember that according to Old Nan's tale, not only did he never die, he was only a normal man by light of day. That means Dawn will age him by roughly 8000 years. No wonder he keeps to the dark. Anyway, I digress.... I think the implications are there to be made that the Ancient Others, and/or Night's King, are hidden behind the curtain (of light), packed beyond the snow (the Wall), in the frozen dead lands of the heart of winter.

Winter was Coming. Well, now, it's come. And the snow and cold and darkness are all conducive to the starry-eyed sidhe made of ice.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

[LmL]

Evolett, have you caught this tiny detail in TWOAIF? Pretty juicy stuff *chuckles*

The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old god of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood tress ( some accounts say there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the frost fangs, gods of snow and ice on the frozen shore, or crab gods at Storrold's point, but such has never been reliably confirmed.

Storrold's Point is Hardhomme, obviously a significant place. The fact they worship a crab god there seems like a kind of confirmation in general of the crab - Other correlation. The crabs packed in ice come from eastwatch, which is where Mel sees the "dark tide" washing over the towers by the sea. Cotter Pyke went from Eastwatch to Hardhome, and saw the dead things in the water.

Focusing on Hardhome for a minute, I think I just made a catch. Of course the mysterious conflagration occurred 600 years ago, we know that. A couple of reason offered:

"Some say cannibals from Skagos fell on them, others that slavers from across the narrow sea were at fault.The strangest stories , from a ship of the watch sent to investigate, tell of hideous screams echoing down from the cliffs above Hardhome, where no living man or woman could be found."

The Skagosi are "stoneborn," and "Skagos" literally means stone. So, possibility one, a stone fell on Hardhome. Hooray, meteor sighting. Keeping with this theme, I see the word "fault" jumping out to me in the next line. All the "waking giants from the earth" talk has always seemed like descriptions of an earthquake to me, so I think that's what is implied here. Not sure if the slavers or Narrow Sea part means anything in relation to the fault, but this was right around the time of the founding of Bravos. The screaming caves, first of all, are really freaky and scary sounding. I've always thought about them as evidence of firewyrms, myself. That area is pretty fertile for the far north, which adds to the idea of volcanism of some kind. But running with the natural disaster analogies, we have a stone falling on them, an earthquake, and if those "hideous scream echoing down from..above" are anything meteorological, that reminds me of the meteor shower which I believe happened after the moon explosion during the Long Night. The flaming meteors were seen as dragons, so hideous screams from above kind of fits that idea.

So what is George telling us here? Is this about the actual disaster at Hardhome, or are these clues about something older? Seems like the watch would have noticed a falling meteor big enough to do the kind of damage. An earthquake seems possible but doesn't explain the fire in the sky, unless the earthquake triggered volcanism of some kind. There's a certain similarity between Hardhome disaster and the Doom, and possibly also the events of the moon destruction that kicked off the Long Night, so it may be that George is giving us LN disaster clues in the Doom and the Hardhome disaster. Dragonglass and black blood, earthquakes and stones falling from the sky, screaming dragons descending from above. Sounds about right.

Returning the crab idea, why were these crab worshipping people destroyed by fire? Did they do something wrong? I definitely suspect the maesters as having a hand in it, as we get that whole story of Maesters Wyllis living there for three years, returning to Oldtown to write a book, and then heading back to Eastwatch and never being seen again. Oddly, TWOIAF gives us no date for this event, but I wouldn't be surprised if was just before the explosion - the citadel practicing or discovering some technology they used later to help start to Doom of Valyrian chain reaction. Perhaps a way of exploding dragon eggs, like maybe happened at Summerhall, or starting a chain reaction is a volcanic area through magic or something. But if it wasn't the maesters, then what set off this explosion? Is worshipping a crab God akin to worshipping Others? Just trying to figure out who's on who's team and who antagonizes who.

[Voice]

^ nice catch :cheers:

[LmL]

Another thought about the crab fork, or trident: the Trident River brings together red, green, and blue. Perhaps the trident is a metaphor for combing earth, ice, and fire to make a potent weapon.

It's hard to see Dawn as a weapon against the Others, because all of its symbolism is icy. Yes, it represents the dawn or sunrise, as Lightbringer the red sword represents sunset and darkness. But Dawn is not a fire weapon, by any stretch of the imagination, and the dragon steel of the Last Hero slew Others. The effective weapons against cold entities: Dragonglass (frozen fire), actual fire, possibly iron (haven't seen that yet) which is forged in fire, and dragonsteel, which considering the previous three and the nature of the Others as Ice demons, it follows that dragonsteel had to do with heat and fire also. The sword Dawn has never once been described with any fiery imagery, symbolism, etc.

An icy sword like Dawn would make a great weapon against a fire magic menace, however, like Azor Ahai / the Bloodstone Emperor, who invaded Westeros at Battle Isle.

Lit from below, his face was a death mask, his missing eye a red and angry wound. The sword was aflame from point to crossguard, but Dondarrion seemed not to feel the heat. He stood so still he might have been carved of stone. But when the Hound charged him, he moved fast enough. The flaming sword leapt up to meet the cold one, long streamers of fire trailing in its wake like the ribbons the Hound had spoken of. Steel rang on steel. No sooner was his first slash blocked than Clegane made another, but this time Lord Beric’s shield got in the way, and wood chips flew from the force of the blow. Hard and fast the cuts came, from low and high, from right and left, and each one Dondarrion blocked. The flames swirled about his sword and left red and yellow ghosts to mark its passage. Each move Lord Beric made fanned them and made them burn the brighter, until it seemed as though the lightning lord stood within a cage of fire. “Is it wildfire?” Arya asked Gendry.

“No. This is different. This is …”

“… magic?”

[...]

Smooth as summer silk, Lord Beric slid close to make an end of the man before him. The Hound gave a rasping scream, raised his sword in both hands and brought it crashing down with all his strength. Lord Beric blocked the cut easily … “ Noooooo, ” Arya shrieked. … but the burning sword snapped in two, and the Hound’s cold steel plowed into Lord Beric’s flesh where his shoulder joined his neck and clove him clean down to the breastbone. The blood came rushing out in a hot black gush. Sandor Clegane jerked backward, still burning. He ripped the remnants of his shield off and flung them away with a curse, then rolled in the dirt to smother the fire running along his arm. Lord Beric’s knees folded slowly, as if for prayer. When his mouth opened only blood came out. The Hound’s sword was still in him as he toppled face forward. The dirt drank his blood.

Although this chapter and passage is loaded with Lightbringer / comet / moon stuff (the fire sword sets the three dogs on fire of Sandor's shield - hello Cerberus!), the thing I am pointing at is the cold sword splitting the fire sword. Forget the technicalities of the scene (Beric's steel not good enough to handle fire magic) and think about the symbolism. The Last Hero's sword shattered against the Others sword, as did Ser Waymar's. I think this is an allusion to Dawn, the icy sword, shattering the red sword of Azor Ahai, probably at Battle Isle but definitely somewhere in Westeros. This broken sword was reformed with Dragonglass added to it, making it a balanced fire sword. The reason it broke against Dawn was that it contained only the dark fire of the bloodstone added to steel - it needed the frozen fire of obsidian as well to balance it out - now it has light and shadow aspects of fire both. We know the cotf helped the Last Hero, presumably by fixing his blade (just as the elves help to reforge Ellendil in LOTR). I have been inclined to interpret that in the way I describe above - the LH's sword actually broke against Dawn, which has some part of an Other essence inside it (the milk glass), as opposed to breaking against a sword of an actual Other. Dawn, an ice sword containing ice magic via the milkglass, broke the fire sword initially.

Since I've gone pretty far off topic (sorry Evolett), let's bring it back to crabs. Have we seen magic swords and crabs together? Yes, absolutely. Nimble Dick and Brienne swap hero stories, with Dick talking up Ser Clarence Crab, who was eight feet tall and rode an aurochs, and Brienne tells of Ser Galladon or Morne, who was given the magic sword "the Just Maid" after the Maiden herself "lost her heart" to him. Nissa Nissa, the moon maid, lost her heart to make a magic sword, that's not hard to figure out. But Brienne has this line at the end, after Dick says Ser Clarence would have wiped his ass with Galladon, Brienne says that against a foe eight feet tall and mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the maid (he wouldn't use her against mortal foes). This might indicate that a crab warrior (Other, Other-human hybrid, Stark with Other blood) against our maiden-heart-killing magic sword wielded, Azor Ahai.

As for the giant mounted on an aurochs, that sounds an awful damn lot like Garth the Green and the Sacred Order of the Green Men. Garth was a very large man, it is said, and when Renly dons his armor right before his death by shadows sword, it notes that the antler heals adds a foot and a half to his height, again implying that Garth was a large man. Coldhands, who I suspect to be a 10,000 year old resurrected greenseer, rides a giant elk (it's described as ten feet tall at the SHOULDER, which I only noticed in a recent re-read - that's fucking HUGE!) From this I gleaned that Azor Ahai likely killed Garth the Green, who of course has to die as he is the archetype of the Corn King who dies in the winter and resurrects to bring the spring. But the text hints strongly suggest that Azor was defeated at Battle Isle (or possibly somewhere else in Westeros, but probably at Battle Isle), and not killed but left weakened, reduced. The text always puts that clue in - the fire warrior is weakened after his fight, but not killed. This is where our ice warrior with Dawn comes in, dealing a heavy blow to Azor and breaking his sword. Then it seems the sword was reforged and became known as dragonsteel, and was then used by the LH to fight the Others. Azor himself may be the LH, I am not sure yet.

[Evolett]

So many interesting angles from all of you that I hardly know where to start. Since I had to interrupt my reply to Seam’s post yesterday, I’ll continue with that and later put forward some ideas I have regarding Hardhome and Mother Mole.

Back to the Crab Faction and the idea of a special weapon, possibly some kind of fork / trident. I personally think that the crab fork also serves as a hint to the nature of the crab-faction; it reminds us of a trident and of the three-pronged frog spear the crannogmen use. The important thing here is the use of the frog spear in particular. It’s designed to catch frogs and other aquatic creatures. A frog is an amphibian, beginning it’s life-cycle in water, undergoing metamorphosis and eventually being able to live on land. However well adapted to land, the species must always return to the water and most inhabit both environments. Many crabs also exhibit ‘amphibious behaviour’, alternating between both ecosystems. We’ve seen Tyrion use a crab fork while Mormont simply uses his hands to crack his crabs, implying a special weapon may be useful but not absolutely necessary.

Such aquatic or amphibious creatures are rumoured to exist in the books. We have reports of half-human hybrids, mermaids, squishers, selkies, deep ones etc. The Grey King specifically took a mermaid to wife so that his children would be able to survive both on land and in water.

Arya’s chapter ‘Cat of the Canals’ offers a very lengthy description of her activities as a seafood seller. She sells shellfish – mainly oysters, clams and cockles:

Oysters, clams, and cockles” were Cat’s magic words, and like all good magic words they could take her almost anywhere. She had boarded ships from Lys and Oldtown and the Port of Ibben and sold her oysters right on deck.

She wishes she had hot sauce to sell them with because a rival sells three times as much as she does because of the sauce. She also discovers the ingredients of hot sauce but we don’t find out what it is. Incidentally, Borrell offers Davos pepper to season his sister’s stew. I have not come to any definite conclusion concerning these molluscs but suspect they belong to the ‘Crab-Faction’ or perhaps Aquatic-Faction would be a better general term. Molluscs belong to a different family of aquatic creatures. They usually have hard outer shells and are soft and ‘squishy’ on the inside. Dick Crabb describes squishers, which pad along on webbed feet, making a squish-squish sound. I’d assign these squishers to the mulluscs.

In that same chapter there is also a reference to an emperor crab:

“Soon I will be playing in the Purple, and after that the Sealord’s Palace,” Dareon went on. Cat’s empty barrow clattered over the cobblestones, making its own sort of rattling music. “Yesterday I ate herring with the whores, but within the year I’ll be having emperor crab with courtesans.”

Dareon is moving up in the world, he expects to be playing in high places soon, eating emperor crabs with the famed courtesans of Bravos. The emperor crabs – another way of describing conqueror crabs?

There is also quite a bit of information on the storage of all this seafood. Live crabs are stored in barrels of brine and seaweed. Cooked molluscs are stored on beds of seaweed. And of course we have the crabs, packed in ice, which arrive at the wall via East Watch.

I’ll stop here. It appears there’s mounting evidence for a variety of Others besides the white walkers. I think we need to look elsewhere for parallels to the white walkers. I no longer think that the crab-faction represents them. Some stuff I’ve discovered points to the kingsguard as a parallel.

[Evolett]

On the subject of fools

Seam

Tyrion is acting like a GRRM Fool in this scene. There is another Thorne connection to fools, as he says he would have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than Jon would have training Sam Tarley to use a sword. We know that Fools in ASOIAF seem to share insights in the form of riddles and seemingly-nonsense, random phrases. What is it about Thorne that causes these Fool associations? Should we assume that others who interact with him are showing wise insights, prophecies and foreshadowing, even if they don't act quite as Fool-ish as Tyrion does in this scene?

You’ve hit the nail right on the head here. I’ve shared my insights on the historical role of fools and on Patchface in particular in this essay.

I’ll just quote an excerpt from that on the historical role played by fools in medieval times:

Fools and jesters graced the courts of kings as well as fairs and markets in medieval times. Clothed in their distinctive attire of motley, usually of patterned fabrics, they entertained the court with jokes, magic, storytelling, juggling, songs, music and acrobatics. A fool was unique because his status allowed him to speak truths that others would have been severely punished for. Speaking in jest and in parables, a jester could address political issues and poke fun at the nobility without fear of redress. As such, the fool was both a critic and a perpetuator of social change. The fool provided recreation and play but he also provided truth and balance and was a catalyst for change, creation and destruction.

Patchface (and Tyrion in his role as a fool) are characters that should be taken seriously because they share valuable information. Rather than prophesying, Patchface provides us information on the Others – both on the aquatic faction and on the white walkers. That said, I think GRRM has designed Patchface’s riddles to be multi-faceted, i.e. they are meant to be interpreted in three different ways.

Tyrion’s insights and jests serve up significant clues for us readers – one example being the crab fork you’ve discovered. There are several others. One I find very intriguing is the following:

“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

“Half-brothers,” Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf’s comment, but he tried not to let it show.

I think this is telling us something we’ve missed – I do have an idea but need more support before I can put it forward.

Time to go again…. RL calling…

[Seams]

I think we will see a variety of Others, the crabs representing one of those factions but not the white walkers. The crab fork that Tyrion uses against Thorne (I would agree that he represents an Other) appears to be significant here. We've seen that obsidian is effective against the white walkers and that steel and fire will serve for the wights. The crab fork doesn't fit into any of these categories, at least none that I can think of. In fact, seeing as seafood in general is eaten with special cutlery and that Tyrion is explicitly using a crab fork gives me the impression that a different kind of weapon may be required for the 'crab faction' of Others. A fork resembles a trident and a quick search reveals that the Manderlys' sigil not only features a merman holding a trident, but their household troops and foot soldiers carry tridents in place of spears. They appear to be the only ones to do so. The crabs are packed in ice to keep them fresh... if we apply this to white walkers, it could be a reference to their need for icy conditions to be able to operate at all. Applied to a different faction, this could mean the same thing but it could also mean they are hidden in ice (much like Tyrion was concealed in the wine barrel).

Back to the Crab Faction and the idea of a special weapon, possibly some kind of fork / trident. I personally think that the crab fork also serves as a hint to the nature of the crab-faction; it reminds us of a trident and of the three-pronged frog spear the crannogmen use. The important thing here is the use of the frog spear in particular. Its designed to catch frogs and other aquatic creatures. A frog is an amphibian, beginning its life-cycle in water, undergoing metamorphosis and eventually being able to live on land. However well adapted to land, the species must always return to the water and most inhabit both environments. Many crabs also exhibit amphibious behaviour, alternating between both ecosystems. Weve seen Tyrion use a crab fork while Mormont simply uses his hands to crack his crabs, implying a special weapon may be useful but not absolutely necessary.

Dareon is moving up in the world, he expects to be playing in high places soon, eating emperor crabs with the famed courtesans of Bravos. The emperor crabs another way of describing conqueror crabs?

Ill stop here. It appears theres mounting evidence for a variety of Others besides the white walkers. I think we need to look elsewhere for parallels to the white walkers. I no longer think that the crab-faction represents them. Some stuff Ive discovered points to the kingsguard as a parallel.

When Thorne challenges Tyrion to a sword fight, telling him to "make your japes with steel in your hand," Tyrion refers to the crab fork as steel in his hand. I agree that a trident or fork is a special category of weapon, but this exchange makes me think that it is also considered to be in "the sword family," if there is such a thing. "Stick 'em with the pointy end," or something along those lines.

I think Mormont cracking the crab claw with his bare hands is a clue intended to help us sort out the sword / fork puzzle. There's almost a logic problem to work out:

1) Mormont doesn't need a "weapon" to crack a crab claw.

2) Mormont gives a sword called Long Claw to Jon Snow. The sword originally alluded to bear claws, but Mormont has it retooled to represent wolf claws. Jon Snow and Ghost were injured by eagle claws earlier in the story, and now we also have a crab claw association.

3) Lord Commander Mormont is brutally attacked and killed by his own men. (He asks Sam Tarley to convey the message that Jorah, who used to own Long Claw, is forgiven and should join the Night's Watch.)

4) Lord Commander Jon Snow is brutally attacked and killed (maybe) by his own men. So he no longer needs a sword. If speculation in parts of this forum is correct, Jon Snow may warg into his direwolf, who has long claws of a different sort. In a way, Jon "becomes" his own sword (if the warg solution for Jon's mortality challenge is correct).

So there is something about steel and swords that goes with this crab claw motif, along with Tyrion's famous fork. A few months ago, I posted something on the thread called, "A Feast for the Dead, a Snow in the Tombs, a Dream in Dust" that may be relevant:

In the interaction of Tyrion and Jon at the Wall, the word "edge" comes up over and over. The Wall is the Edge of the World. Jon would have cut off Grenn's hand if he had an edge on his blade. Tyrion and Alliser Thorne each have an edge in their voices at one point, oddly enough. And I mentioned that Tyrion explains to Jon that reading puts an edge on the blade of his mind. Jon himself may be the sword these mentors are working to sharpen. At any rate, all of these "edge" references hint at some important sword, I'm thinking.

On a related note, Tyrion and Alliser Thorne verbally spar over a dinner of crab (yet another important feast) - Tyrion makes fun of Thorne with a crab fork (allusions to Trident River, Meera's hunting trident, the fork Arya throws into the canal, Daario's beard?) and Mormont crushes a crab claw with his fist. I'm sure many people have observed that the sword Longclaw could represent the claw of a bear, wolf or an eagle but I think it's no coincidence that the trident river flows toward an area called the Bay of Crabs - another animal with a notable claw. The best hint I've seen to explain the symbolism of crabs is that Victarion Greyjoy gave his wife "to the crabs" after his brother seduced her - i.e., he killed her and put her body in the water. So crabs may represent death or mutilation after death. Maybe crabs are the "sigil" of the white walkers? At any rate, a crab claw is yet another kind of claw that could all be embodied by Jon's sword.

Arya's silver fork, given to her by sailors on the Titan's Daughter during the brief interval when she is called Salty, after the Saltpans, has to be a clue for us in sorting out the fork symbolism. The Saltpans is the area where the Trident River flows into the Bay of Crabs. The Kindly Man singles out Arya's fork a couple times when he is telling her that a person must "give up all that makes them who they are" in order to serve the Many-Faced God. Is the fork a symbol of Needle, the sword that Arya can't bring herself to part with? Arya throws the fork into the harbor, along with her other goods, but she goes up some stone steps (stone and steps are both important symbols, too) and hides Needle where she can find it again. Maybe the silver fork and Needle are a pair the way that Ice was divided into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

As Evolett points out, Dareon, the Night's Watch minstrel who deserts in Braavos and brags about his expectation that he will soon be eating crabs is another clue. In the crab feast at the Night's Watch, it was only high-ranking officers and the noble-born Tyrion who ate crabs. There are other threads that discuss foods, and I think there are foods for rich people or nobles (lemons, boar, eel) and other foods for small folk (roots, although those are also eaten at key moments by upper classes). Arya kills Dareon because he's a deserter but he has also shown hubris by bragging about his upcoming crab-eating plans. (It's also significant that he's a singer, of course, and doesn't Arya take his boots? Lots of converging symbolism again.)

Evolett, I think you are right on to be examining the white-cloaked King's Guard as part of this cluster of symbols. Ghost is Jon's white-cloaked guard but I think he is also a white walker or a wight. People have puzzled about why Ghost was so hostile to Tyrion during his interactions with Jon, and I think it is some kind of foreshadowing about Tyrion's role in the upcoming battle between the Others and humans. Ghost's affinity for Sam Tarley, similarly, foreshadows that Sam will be able to communicate with Jon while he is warging inside of Ghost, I believe. (This may be getting too convoluted, but I think Mormont's raven was a Fool - like Patchface, Butterbumps, Moon boy, etc. - and that "craven" Sam is Jon's "raven" - i.e., his fool - who will have brilliant insights without even knowing that he is having them.)

I wrote that bit about Victarion's wife being my best clue before I read your good insights about Sister Stew. But she may tie into your Patchface theory - her body was "given to the crabs" similarly to Patchface's apparent drowning in a ship wreck. Maybe she will be revived in some form and come back for revenge or for some other purpose. We don't know her name, so maybe she already has come back as a character we have already seen.

I wrote up a lot of this yesterday in a big reply that was lost due to a server issue. If I remember anything I've left out here, I may post more later.

[Seams]

Oh! I meant to address this, too:

On the subject of fools

Patchface (and Tyrion in his role as a fool) are characters that should be taken seriously because they share valuable information. Rather than prophesying, Patchface provides us information on the Others both on the aquatic faction and on the white walkers. That said, I think GRRM has designed Patchfaces riddles to be multi-faceted, i.e. they are meant to be interpreted in three different ways.

Tyrions insights and jests serve up significant clues for us readers one example being the crab fork youve discovered. There are several others. One I find very intriguing is the following:

I think this is telling us something weve missed I do have an idea but need more support before I can put it forward.

Great minds think alike! This quote has also intrigued me, and I take it as one piece of evidence for a pet theory of mine that Rhaegar is not Jon's father. This theory might also explain why Melisandre thought that Jon's sister was on her way to meet Jon just before Alys Karstark showed up.

Great catch!

[LmL]

Seams, you seem like a decent sort of person. Really enjoyed your comments on this thread.

Please don't go down the dark hole of RLJ denial, or if you do, please figure out what the rational argument is against it, because nobody has apparently found that yet, and there is a small group of hardened deniers who could really use a decent argument.

When I hear crazy ideas, I'm always intrigued, like maybe this person is a genius! Having just taken a look at the anti-RLJ arguments... That's not the feeling I got.

[Seams]

Seams, you seem like a decent sort of person. Really enjoyed your comments on this thread.

Please don't go down the dark hole of RLJ denial, or if you do, please figure out what the rational argument is against it, because nobody has apparently found that yet, and there is a small group of hardened deniers who could really use a decent argument.

When I hear crazy ideas, I'm always intrigued, like maybe this person is a genius! Having just taken a look at the anti-RLJ arguments... That's not the feeling I got.

I haven't read the R + L = J threads, although I've seen enough to know that there is a compelling argument to be made there. I also haven't read the arguments of the small group of deniers. I do know that I don't like the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments in various places in this forum, so I won't try to provoke a fight for a theory where most of the evidence has not yet been revealed by GRRM. I freely admit that I may be wrong, so I'm willing to wait and see what the author will give us when he is ready.

[Voice]

Seams, you seem like a decent sort of person. Really enjoyed your comments on this thread.

Please don't go down the dark hole of RLJ denial, or if you do, please figure out what the rational argument is against it, because nobody has apparently found that yet, and there is a small group of hardened deniers who could really use a decent argument.

When I hear crazy ideas, I'm always intrigued, like maybe this person is a genius! Having just taken a look at the anti-RLJ arguments... That's not the feeling I got.

Given your recent experience, I can see why. SMH

I haven't read the R + L = J threads, although I've seen enough to know that there is a compelling argument to be made there. I also haven't read the arguments of the small group of deniers. I do know that I don't like the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments in various places in this forum, so I won't try to provoke a fight for a theory where most of the evidence has not yet been revealed by GRRM. I freely admit that I may be wrong, so I'm willing to wait and see what the author will give us when he is ready.

As an R+L=J agnostic, you are speaking my language.

[LmL]

How many angels can dance on a pin? Sounds like a really cool saying that I'd like to be able to use. What does it mean?

[Lost Melnibonean]

How many angels can dance on a pin? Sounds like a really cool saying that I'd like to be able to use. What does it mean?

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