Am I the only one who thinks it was scummy of the Baratheons to lead a rebellion?

[The silver dragon]

Well, but you can't hold Robert or his rebellion responsible for that. It is true that TWot5K mainly results from Joffrey's incompetence and his invalid claim but how is that related to RR? Robert couldn't know that his unborn son would grow up to be an incompetent inbred. If he had a more sane heir with a competent hand, maybe none of that would have happened. My point is that many readers seem to hold Robert responsible for the present chaos in Westeros, while his rebellion is totally unrelated to the current war. It's like calling you a murderer when your son kills someone because you are the cause of his existence.

1.) yes i can hold Robert responsible, he the one you decided to be king. and thus the realm is his responsibility and his alone. (a responsibility which he neglects)

2.) no it does not, it results because Robert totally ignores the teeming explosive cesspool of politics that was going on Right under his nose.

(hell even eddard picks up on how bad the realm is, and attempts gtfo and ned is hardly the most political savvy of people.)

3.) Robert knew his heir was not right in the head for years, and did nothing to rectify that.

4.) Robert had one of the most component and loyal hands a man could.

5.) Renly uses Roberts rebellion as an excuse to usurp his relatives, saying something along the lines "Roberts "right" was his war hammer"

[John Doe]

Roberts reign was more peaceful and stable than most of the Targaryen ones, and he is arguably the worst king of his dynasty.

Now try comparing him to mad king Aerys and you will see why the targs had to be dethroned.

[JonStargaryan]

The Targaryen dynasty had their time.

OP got some major facts wrong. The rebellion as such was more of a defensive alliance than anything else. It was Aerys who suffered under a quite severe form of megalomania (in German there is a quite apt word for that kind of delusion: Caesarenwahn --> Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler as examples) and it was Rhaegar's fault to not relplace his delusional father earlier and "silently" (i.e. house arrest, invent some illness etc). But Rhaegar was delusional as well it seems.

Conclusion: the downfall of House Targaryen was completely their own doing. The rebellion was not a proactive or preemptive strike but a REACTION to the rising delusion of King Aerys.

Pretty much agree with you. Except i think you're being a bit harsh on Rhaegar. But then again he could of done what you suggested but hindsight is 20/20 and what not.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

1.) yes i can hold Robert responsible, he the one you decided to be king. and thus the realm is his responsibility and his alone. (a responsibility which he neglects)

2.) no it does not, it results because Robert totally ignores the teeming explosive cesspool of politics that was going on Right under his nose.

(hell even eddard picks up on how bad the realm is, and attempts gtfo and ned is hardly the most political savvy of people.)

3.) Robert knew his heir was not right in the head for years, and did nothing to rectify that.

4.) Robert had one of the most component and loyal hands a man could.

5.) Renly uses Roberts rebellion as an excuse to usurp his relatives, saying something along the lines "Roberts "right" was his war hammer"

1. So? He died and as long as he was alive the realm was in peace.

2. I don't claim that he was the most competent of kings, but there is a difference between peace, ignoring tensions and all-out war.

3. As we know, in the feudal society of Westeros bringing up children is done by mothers, maesters and masters-at-arms etc, so how was it Robert's responsibility? Cersei fucked up Joffrey by spoiling him and ignoring his madness and when Robert intervened she threatened to kill him.

4. So? I was referring to Joffrey. If Joffrey would have been sane and would have had a competent hand, this maybe would not have happened. Tyrion was highly competent but constantly thwarted by Joffrey's escapades. If he had not killed Ned and handed over Sansa and Arya, Robb would not have declared war. Also, if his hand would have had the Mountain removed, the Riverlands would not have rebelled. I doubt they would have rebelled all alone even with the mountain running amok anyways...

5. Renly only declared because Joffrey was illegitimate. Were he trueborn, there would be no way for him to get the Tyrells to his cause. The only declared because Mace wanted to see his daughter on the throne and there was the opportunity.

[John Doe]

5. Renly only declared because Joffrey was illegitimate. Were he trueborn, there would be no way for him to get the Tyrells to his cause. The only declared because Mace wanted to see his daughter on the throne and there was the opportunity.

No, he didn't believe Stannis. Plus it would make no sense because if he believed Joffry is illegitimate he would still not be heir.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. So? He died and as long as he was alive the realm was in peace.

Apart from the Greyjoy Rebellion you mean.

Robert won the Throne with a civil war and his failures with his 'son' and brothers resulted in another civil war immediately after he died.

He was a poor king.

3. As we know, in the feudal society of Westeros bringing up children is done by mothers, maesters and masters-at-arms etc, so how was it Robert's responsibility? Cersei fucked up Joffrey by spoiling him and ignoring his madness and when Robert intervened she threatened to kill him.

He still has a responsibility to raise a competent ruler.

He doesn't have to be caring, loving or even attentive but there has to be some guidance and education from his part. Women rarely rule so it would be the fathers responsibility to cover that area or assign others to do it not just ignore the situation entirely.

4. So? I was referring to Joffrey. If Joffrey would have been sane and would have had a competent hand, this maybe would not have happened. Tyrion was highly competent but constantly thwarted by Joffrey's escapades. If he had not killed Ned and handed over Sansa and Arya, Robb would not have declared war. Also, if his hand would have had the Mountain removed, the Riverlands would not have rebelled. I doubt they would have rebelled all alone even with the mountain running amok anyways...

Robb had declared war before Ned was dead.

Robert and Ned agreed the betrothal of Sansa to Joffrey. Why should Joffrey dishonour the Kings agreement and Sansa herself?

Ned committed treason. Are the Starks above the law?

And Joffrey was insane before Robert died. He was a little shit, but wasn't unhinged.

The TV show really amps him up as a pantomime villain but in the books he was certainly unpleasant before he was King but not nearly the monster he is made out to be.

In a short space of time his 'father' dies, his prospective father in law is accusing him of being a bastard, a bastard of his uncle no less, his uncles and brother-in-law are marching to war against him. It's actually a lot to take in for any 13 year old. Most of the country wanting you dead and calling you an incestuous bastard after your father had just died is enough to unhinge anyone.

5. Renly only declared because Joffrey was illegitimate. Were he trueborn, there would be no way for him to get the Tyrells to his cause. The only declared because Mace wanted to see his daughter on the throne and there was the opportunity.

No, Renly is as surprised as Cat is to hear the 'story' from Stannis. Even then he doesn't know if it is true.

[The silver dragon]

Roberts reign was more peaceful and stable than most of the Targaryen ones, and he is arguably the worst king of his dynasty.

Now try comparing him to mad king Aerys and you will see why the targs had to be dethroned.

:bs:

[John Doe]

:bs:

Well, every Targ who reigned during any Greyjoy rebellion, dance of the dragons, war against Dorne, or blackfyre rebellion already had no more peaceful reign than Robert's. I don't know how many Targs that leaves.

Don't forget, Aegon V. had to deal with a rebellion if I remember correctly.

[The silver dragon]

Well, every Targ who reigned during any Greyjoy rebellion, dance of the dragons, war against Dorne, or blackfyre rebellion already had no more peaceful reign than Robert's. I don't know how many Targs that leaves.

Don't forget, Aegon V. had to deal with a rebellion if I remember correctly.

1.) there only been two of those against the targs. (aerys1, and aegon 2 , so thats two)

2.) dance happen during the reign of one king. (aegon the 2 so that's still just two)

3.)the war on dorne took place only on dornsih soil.

which means the rest of the realms peace or stability was not disturbed.

4.) most blackfyre rebellions after the first one, lasted less than a couple of months. (so one more targ, daeron 2 had a less peaceful reign)

so that leaves three of them, hardly the majority like you stated.

[John Doe]

The Greyjoy rebellion was very short too. Hardly what I would call a non- peaceful reign.

[Biter the Gallant]

5. Renly only declared because Joffrey was illegitimate. Were he trueborn, there would be no way for him to get the Tyrells to his cause. The only declared because Mace wanted to see his daughter on the throne and there was the opportunity.

Otherwise I agree, but it is simply not true. Renly was unaware of the incest. He was just a politician who strongly opposed the Lannister influence at court. That is why he wanted to make Robert remarry with Margaery instead of Cersei. When he had to face the perspective that Joffrey will be the king (as a Lannister puppet), he decided to take the throne for himself.

[Halcyon-Days]

Tell that to the families of smallfolk who died during the rebellion.

And the families of the people Aerys had burnt alive?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Here is my Targaryen Kings Ranking including Bobby.

1. Aegon I

2. Daeron II

3. Jaehaerys I

4. Jaehaerys II

5. Aegon V

Bobby was here.

6. Aerys I

Or here.

7. Maekar I

Or here.

8. Viserys II

9. Aegon III

10. Daeron I

11. Aenys I

12. Baelor I

13. Aegon II

14. Viserys I

15. Maegor I

16. Aerys II

17. Aegon IV

Almost agree. I would just Aegon I, Jaehaerys I and Aegon V just above Aegon II.

:bs:

Υou can :bs: all you like it doesn't stop it from being the truth.

And the families of the people Aerys had burnt alive?

Not only them, I mean the nobles. How about the families of smallfolk that Aerys killed and was planning to kill?

[John Doe]

And the families of the people Aerys had burnt alive?

Funny how Targaryen supporters can be so blind when it comes to the rebellion. Aerys' men killed people too, and should Robert just let himself be killed?

I mean, I like Targaryens too (Maekar and Baelor Breakspear in particular), but the recent Targaryens have nobody to blame but themselves for the rebellion and its outcome.

[The silver dragon]

Almost agree. I would just Aegon I, Jaehaerys I and Aegon V just above Aegon II.

Υou can :bs: all you like it doesn't stop it from being the truth.

Not only them, I mean the nobles. How about the families of smallfolk that Aerys killed and was planning to kill?

1.) truth at the best of times is subjective, and i consider you're truth to be :bs:.

2.) fact of the matter Robert was one of the shitest king's on the iron throne.

and not a single positive change came out of his rule. and he proceed to ignore a melting pot of shit that was right under his nose.

leading to one of the bloodiest war in the history of westeros surpassed only by the dance.

where weapons of mass destruction were being constantly applied;.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1.) truth at the best of times is subjective, and i consider you're truth to be :bs:.

The truth on this is simple logic. During Robert's reign there was one minor war. Case closed.

[Batbob45]

While I disapprove of some of Roberts action like smiling at bodies of dead kids and his abuse of Cersei, the Mad king was going to burn a whole city to the ground with Wildfire which will kill innocent people.

[Kaibaman]

I mean, I like Targaryens too (Maekar and Baelor Breakspear in particular), but the recent Targaryens have nobody to blame but themselves for the rebellion and its outcome.

Yeah and the Baratheon have nobody to blame for themselves for how bad their regime has turned out and the fact that their house is on the verge of extinction. And right or wrong if a Targ retakes the Iron Throne and wants them and their co-agitators to eat shit. Guess what will happen.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

So as we all know "Robert's Rebellion" was led by Robert Baratheon, the Lord of Storm's End, Lord Paramount of the Stormlands joined by the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and (theoretically) the Lannisters. Now, the Starks, Arryns and Lannisters were all kings of their respective territories before the Targaryen Conquest when they were REDUCED to lordships, so as a matter of course it is understandable that they would eventually rebel, but the Baratheons were bastards RAISED to the lordship of Storm's End, they had NOTHING if not for the Targaryens, which makes it just a little assholey and dishonorable for them to overthrow the Targaryens over minor slights. We aren't used to weighing actions based on what our ancestors were doing three centuries ago but we are talking about a feudal society, ie: no one has anything if not for their ancestors. Now Robert was an idiot who thought with his cock and didn't really care about honor but it seems Stannis, he of the iron will who cannot be reasoned with, should have stayed loyal as a matter of honor (yes he gives Jon a speech about how hard it was for him but at the end of the day he chose treason). Thoughts?

It was either raise their banners, flee Westeros, or rebel. Aerys didn't leave them much of a choice.

[danm_999]

Screw that, if anything the Targaryens were scummy to the Baratheons.

In Robert's lifetime, the Baratheons were model subjects to Aerys. When Rhaegar needed a bride, it was Robert's parents who trekked over to the Free Cities to try and find him one (resulting in their deaths).

When Aerys needed the Knight of the Laughing Tree hunted down, Robert put his hand up straight away at the Tourney at Harrenhall.

When Robert's bride was taken by Rhaegar, Robert didn't fly off the handle like Brandon. He stayed at the Eyrie until Aerys sent his death warrant for the crime of guilt by association.

What was Robert and the Baratheon family supposed to do? Walk meekly to the gallows after a lifetime of loyalty for the crime of being friends with a hothead's brother? If Robert had acquiesced, how long until crazy old Aerys had thought he'd better bump off Stannis and Renly too; just in case.

How long until someone else looked at him funny, maybe a Tyrell or a Dornishmen, and a Rebellion somewhere else would have popped up?