Why did Stannis refuse Justin Massey a Lord Ship?

[Wavey Sauce]

I think it gives a decent shot at controlling the Narrow Sea from there - and then there's the symbolism of losing your "home" seat.

I still think if given the choice he would try to capture Storms End over Dragon Stone if had to pick one given the chance

[John Doe]

Why should he grant him the lordship? You can't give everyone under your command a lordship just because he asks for it. Massey has it already in his pocket provided he returns with the sellswords.

[Mikkel]

I still think if given the choice he would try to capture Storms End over Dragon Stone if had to pick one given the chance

Sure. I think that's a given, really. But then I never said otherwise, just that losing Dragonstone is not entirely inconsequential - but it was probably inevitable, unless he wanted to sit there besieged until everything was settled and whoever won came to smoke him out.

[John Doe]

A lot of Stannis is actually doing what others do, just not firing rainbows out of his arse while he does it.

Very well put.

[Wavey Sauce]

Why should he grant him the lordship? You can't give everyone under your command a lordship just because he asks for it. Massey has it already in his pocket provided he returns with the sellswords.

As stated it cant hurt at all for credibility, and Stannis as king can pick whatever lands he wants to make him the lord of, more so when the ground is won over but still in title its nothing that could hurt his chances and credibility at all, its a no lose situation

[John Doe]

As stated it cant hurt at all for credibility, and Stannis as king can pick whatever lands he wants to make him the lord of, more so when the ground is won over but still in title its nothing that could hurt his chances and credibility at all, its a no lose situation

True, but Stannis is not a man who gives empty titles. He gave Massey the prospect of marrying the heir of the Iron Islands, which is more than most people, let alone most knights ever get.

And I think once you start throwing around empty titles people don't appreciate them that much.

[Wavey Sauce]

True, but Stannis is not a man who gives empty titles. He gave Massey the prospect of marrying the heir of the Iron Islands, which is more than most people, let alone most knights ever get.

And I think once you start throwing around empty titles people don't appreciate them that much.

He is the king and will be way he sees it, he can give whatever land and title away he wants even if the current 3rd party has no clue yet

[cassidyaj]

Is Dragon Stone really even worth getting? It doesnt hurt Stannis all that much if hif he lost it

It does hurt him if people see him as an incompetent ruler if he loses his own seat. They might look at it as himwinning a frozen wall but losing his own home instead and not indicative of his ability to protect his own lands and people.

[Wavey Sauce]

It does hurt him if people see him as an incompetent ruler if he loses his own seat. They might look at it as himwinning a frozen wall but losing his own home instead and not indicative of his ability to protect his own lands and people.

Being the one king who cared about his country and winning a huge battle while being greatly out numbered against a force of 100k has nothing incompetent about that. While other "kings" were playing grab ass for the Iron Throne, Stannis went to the Wall to deal with a serious threat to protect his kingdoms

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Being the one king who cared about his country and winning a huge battle while being greatly out numbered against a force of 100k has nothing incompetent about that. While other "kings" were playing grab ass for the Iron Throne, Stannis went to the Wall to deal with a serious threat to protect his kingdoms

eh?

Stannis was playing 'grab ass' as well, he lost and had to make other plans as he was running out of options.

[HexMachina]

Being the one king who cared about his country and winning a huge battle while being greatly out numbered against a force of 100k has nothing incompetent about that. While other "kings" were playing grab ass for the Iron Throne, Stannis went to the Wall to deal with a serious threat to protect his kingdoms

Look at the catastrophe that Robb losing Winterfell was. It symbolically ruined him

[John Doe]

He could have gone North without aiding the Nights Watch.

[HexMachina]

He could have gone North without aiding the Nights Watch.

And landed where? White Harbour, and gone all chummy with the Freys?

[John Doe]

And landed where? White Harbour, and gone all chummy with the Freys?

The North has a very large coastline. He could have landed anywhere, preferably near the Weeping Water to get to the Bolton lands fast enough.

[Wavey Sauce]

Look at the catastrophe that Robb losing Winterfell was. It symbolically ruined him

Screwing over the Freys and losing Karstark support and trusting Roose Bolton is what ruined him

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The North has a very large coastline. He could have landed anywhere, preferably near the Weeping Water to get to the Bolton lands fast enough.

Would that not be an idiotic move?

He doesn't know how many men are part of the Dreadfort garrison. We know that in past the Boltons have been able to be under siege for two years against the Starks. Is 1,500 enough to take the Dreadfort, does he have the supplies for a long siege and does he not run the risk of being caught by small advancing Manderly and Karstark hosts.

He has no allies in the North and no real intel of which Houses are working together. He would be making a colossal mistake.

[John Doe]

Would that not be an idiotic move?

He doesn't know how many men are part of the Dreadfort garrison. We know that in past the Boltons have been able to be under siege for two years against the Starks. Is 1,500 enough to take the Dreadfort, does he have the supplies for a long siege and does he not run the risk of being caught by small advancing Manderly and Karstark hosts.

He has no allies in the North and no real intel of which Houses are working together. He would be making a colossal mistake.

True enough, it would be a hudge gamble. Although he knew that most of their strenght was south. But aiding the Nights Watch against the Others was still his main goal when he went North. He didn't aid them before the defeat at the Blackwater because he didn't know the Watch needed him at that time.

Granted, him running out of options was a major motive too and we don't know if he would have gone North had he won.

[Wavey Sauce]

Would that not be an idiotic move?

He doesn't know how many men are part of the Dreadfort garrison. We know that in past the Boltons have been able to be under siege for two years against the Starks. Is 1,500 enough to take the Dreadfort, does he have the supplies for a long siege and does he not run the risk of being caught by small advancing Manderly and Karstark hosts.

He has no allies in the North and no real intel of which Houses are working together. He would be making a colossal mistake.

The Dreadfort has held out for up to 4 years at one point as well

edit- It was the same time actually I thought it was 4 but it was 2 before they were starved out

[Nyrhex]

The Dreadfort has held out for up to 4 years at one point as well

And Storm's End had never fallen in 8,000 years, until Stannis arrived and a month later it had. The past "feats" that Martin gives some of these places are laughably over-hyped, and we see several "untaken" castles being taken during the first five books.

[Trigger Warning]

True, but Stannis is not a man who gives empty titles. He gave Massey the prospect of marrying the heir of the Iron Islands, which is more than most people, let alone most knights ever get.

And I think once you start throwing around empty titles people don't appreciate them that much.

Literally everything Stannis says is throwing around an empty title. If someone's willing to negotiate with Stannis as a king then they'll also have to recognise the status of lords within his court, whether it's currently an empty title or not.