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why was Ladystoneheart cut out

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According to watcher on wall site:

[spoiler]Arya is in the Riverlands next season, BWB,DB&DW version of LSH?[/spoiler]

 

Watchers on the Wall is currently engaging in an "insider war" with Winter is Coming.

 

Watcher's insider says LSH is a definite.  WiC's insiders says it's nonsense.

 

We will see, won't we ?

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Watchers on the Wall is currently engaging in an "insider war" with Winter is Coming.

 

Watcher's insider says LSH is a definite.  WiC's insiders says it's nonsense.

 

We will see, won't we ?

Yup, but if it's a LSH story line I don't think it be Sansa, I think her arc is the Vale and getting the North for her family.

 

Also they say [spoiler]jamie and bronn are also in the RL[/spoiler]

 

Could be interesting and then we guess which is closer to the book.

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LSH is such a fan favorite it seems almost unreal that they wouldn't include her. I don't think it will be Cat, though. If we get something LSH-like, I am convinced it will be Sansa. I don't necessarily think she needs to die and be resurrected to fit this role, though I would love to see how that would play out on the show. She might just need to go further into her Darth Sansa character and decide she wants to punish the people who wronged her. Now that she knows Bran and Rickon are alive, however, I don't think she will completely lose her humanity. If the fall kills her, or if she dies by other means, then the darkness will win out and she will go full-on Lady Sansaheart. 

 

How she will be resurrected could happen any number of ways. One possibility is that Theon, who technically has King's blood, could sacrifice himself for her and complete his redemption arc. That's just my imagination running away with me. Really, I just can't wait to see what happens. 

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LSH is such a fan favorite it seems almost unreal that they wouldn't include her. I don't think it will be Cat, though. If we get something LSH-like, I am convinced it will be Sansa. I don't necessarily think she needs to die and be resurrected to fit this role, though I would love to see how that would play out on the show. She might just need to go further into her Darth Sansa character and decide she wants to punish the people who wronged her. Now that she knows Bran and Rickon are alive, however, I don't think she will completely lose her humanity. If the fall kills her, or if she dies by other means, then the darkness will win out and she will go full-on Lady Sansaheart. 

 

How she will be resurrected could happen any number of ways. One possibility is that Theon, who technically has King's blood, could sacrifice himself for her and complete his redemption arc. That's just my imagination running away with me. Really, I just can't wait to see what happens. 

Well I'll get a bad feeling then if the other person shows up there, sort of some foreshadow from Ned.

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Bringing back Stoneheart would've caused a lot of problems in terms of the plot. In the books, none of the Starks know each other's whereabouts. Sansa is in the Vale, and hidden. In the show she's in Winterfell. Bringing Stoneheart into the picture would've messed up Sansa's storyline. The Boltons wouldn't have married her, and they'd have no control over the north. The war would be still going. Arya wouldn't have gone to Braavos. Bran would know through the weirwoods. A lot more could be altered.

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Bloodraven's Bastard:

 

Watchers on the Wall is currently engaging in an "insider war" with Winter is Coming.

 

Watcher's insider says LSH is a definite.  WiC's insiders says it's nonsense.

 

We will see, won't we ?

 

 

Other way around, buddy. :thumbsup: WIC were pro, quoting the Irish Thrones source and breaking the story; Sue at WOTW counter-claimed from her own sources that the LSH 'commanding an army' part was BS (conceding that this did NOT rule out LSH herself.)  Personally I still think there's an outside chance that 'commanding a band of rebel soldiers/outlaws' may have become mis-relayed in the Chinese whispers process to 'army'.

 

It's also worth noting most of the Stoneheart rumblings in previous years came from bogus imdb entries/actor twitter accounts and the like, not more reputable news sources like Irish Thrones quoting "trusted sources" who've been good to them before, so there may well be something in this. Certainly with the casting of Walder, an apparent version of Merrett Frey and Jaime headed to the Riverlands, none of which as plot points seguing into Stoneheart's story were place in seasons 4-5.

 

Arya, I believe to be back in the Riverlands to potentially set up some visions and/or warging (hopefully with Nymeria finding her mother in the river if the LSH plot is go.) She's blind. I don't see her physically sailing back there just yet.

 

(Oh, and still a big fat NO to Sansa taking up the role, FFS. After already using her to sub for Jeyne Poole, they can't then use her to mop up ANOTHER character's subplot; it would expose an appallingly lazy M.O. re: the writing process for her character. For a hundred and one good reasons I've already gone into, it's Michelle Fairley or bust with this character ... though that message, alas, still doesn't seem to be getting through. :bang: )

Edited by Damorian

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Bloodraven's Bastard:

 

 

Other way around, buddy. :thumbsup: WIC were pro, quoting the Irish Thrones source and breaking the story; Sue at WOTW counter-claimed from her own sources that the LSH 'commanding an army' part was BS (conceding that this did NOT rule out LSH herself.)  Personally I still think there's an outside chance that 'commanding a band of rebel soldiers/outlaws' may have become mis-relayed in the Chinese whispers process to 'army'.

 

 

I was merely pointing out that those two respectable sites were saying something totally different.

 

I have no dog in this hunt.  One of them will be very wrong...

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Bloodraven's Bastard:
 
 
Other way around, buddy. :thumbsup: WIC were pro, quoting the Irish Thrones source and breaking the story; Sue at WOTW counter-claimed from her own sources that the LSH 'commanding an army' part was BS (conceding that this did NOT rule out LSH herself.)  Personally I still think there's an outside chance that 'commanding a band of rebel soldiers/outlaws' may have become mis-relayed in the Chinese whispers process to 'army'.
 
It's also worth noting most of the Stoneheart rumblings in previous years came from bogus imdb entries/actor twitter accounts and the like, not more reputable news sources like Irish Thrones quoting "trusted sources" who've been good to them before, so there may well be something in this. Certainly with the casting of Walder, an apparent version of Merrett Frey and Jaime headed to the Riverlands, none of which as plot points seguing into Stoneheart's story were place in seasons 4-5.
 
Arya, I believe to be back in the Riverlands to potentially set up some visions and/or warging (hopefully with Nymeria finding her mother in the river if the LSH plot is go.) She's blind. I don't see her physically sailing back there just yet.
 
(Oh, and still a big fat NO to Sansa taking up the role, FFS. After already using her to sub for Jeyne Poole, they can't then use her to mop up ANOTHER character's subplot; it would expose an appallingly lazy M.O. re: the writing process for her character. For a hundred and one good reasons I've already gone into, it's Michelle Fairley or bust with this character ... though that message, alas, still doesn't seem to be getting through. :bang: )

Irish Thrones is the biggest joke there is. Edited by Jack Bauer 24

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I still maintain that having a zombie Catelyn suddenly come back to life after being killed would just seem really crap on screen. It would be hard to take her seriously as a character.

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And so the hype train comes to a crashing halt:
 
 

Game of Thrones fans have speculated that her character could return as the zombie Lady Stoneheart (as she does in George RR Martin’s source books) but Fairley dismisses the idea, saying curtly, “I am not under contract to Game of Thrones.”



ETA:

Actually, now that I've thought about it for 5 seconds, I'm sure this definitive quote can and will be interpreted to show that she may and will still arrive so the hype will no doubt continue.

Edited by Ser Pounce FTW

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Yeah, for the ones originally pushing the Irish Thrones thing, WIC made a bit of a boo-boo tonight in quoting a news source that appear to have simply rehashed an old Telegraph interview from July:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-features/11758965/Michelle-Fairley-interview-Hollywood-I-hate-everything-about-it.html

 

So brings nothing new to the table, sorry. She wasn't under contract .... in July.  She never said never. 

 

The stone rolls on, believers ...

 

The stone rolls on .... :hat:

Edited by Damorian

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A cracking piece from the ever readable Joanna Robinson in Vanity Fair & pointers so far for S6 suggesting a Brienne/Stoneheart encounter may yet be on the cards: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/08/game-of-thrones-season-six-brienne-lady-stoneheart?utm_content=buffer3904d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

While I (really!!! :ack: ) hope she’s right, and agree 100% on the significance of the likely Merrett casting ... (I seem to recall already droning on about that one at some length  :blushing:  >>>  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133336-who-is-going-to-kill-the-freys-with-no-lsh/page-3  ) .... I also hope we get some bigger hints to support a tighter case in the run up to Season 6. Hell knows, it'd save us all who want to see her another agonising wait fuelled by the rumour-mills of  fake tweets and cynically-minded clickbait. At some point, that's become a kind of purgatory in itself, which I suppose is suitably ironic … :stillsick:

 

I honestly don’t know what to say to those who want/expect a Sansa Stoneheart. I’ve listened to the arguments but my opinion hasn’t changed, i.e: to use her to mop up another subplot they didn’t have the time for in its novel incarnation would be sloppy writing after using her in similar fashion re: the Jeyne Poole situation. Moreover, you lose so much without that character as the resurrected shell of Catelyn played by Michelle Fairley. The arguments against her inclusion seem to be as circular as my own in support of her return, but if you’ll indulge me, I’d like to summarise a last time why they all fall short for me, personally:

 

1./ “Another actress can play her.”  ~ Sure, another actress CAN play her. But you seriously think they'd have the biggest twist/reveal of their show to date be kneecapped before it even left the starter blocks? Sub another actress to the role, you not only lose your headline and the trust of readers who've been waiting three long years for the character to be realised (and crucially: done right) but all emotional connection to a character we have known. Previous recastings worked? Yes, they did, but only of characters like Daario, The Mountain and Bloodraven (tbc) occupying relatively little screen time. And the argument it doesn’t matter if we recognize her through the obvious facial disfigurement of her time spent in the Trident is a non starter for me too. What made the best dramatic moments of, say, The Walking Dead so powerful is that we DID recognize Sofia, Merle, or any of the turned walkers in question however briefly we’d known their on screen selves. To see the eyes we partly recognise behind the mangled latex and open throat is what should create the unsettling, sinking, dread the first time they unveil Stoneheart, the hood drops and the entire audience - book readers & non book readers alike -  recognize her on sight, not at the behest of a convenient verbal info-dump but because it's F*CKING EVIL CATELYN STARK. Which leads neatly on to:

 

2./ “Why would Fairley come back to reprise the role of a ‘mindless zombie’ anyway?” Because she isn’t mindless – at least, not in the narrow Alex Graves definition of the character. She is sentient. Hatefully sentient. But sentient. The decayed, congealed accumulation of all the worst aspects of her character she expressed considerable guilt for to Talisa in wishing Jon Snow dead or putting the blade of vengeance to Jinglebell/Joyeuse Frey’s throat for fear of losing Robb when the game was already over. If your imagination only extends to thinking undead characters on screen can only be done as schlock horror, one note or cheesy, then you're wrong. Think outside the box. There are a hundred ways you can ellicit even empathy for that embittered shell of a woman: have her fondling her prayer wheel watching hangings as some vestige of her lapsed faith in the seven (or better still: battling some dark desire in her fingers to snap off twigs from each of the spokes symbolically.) Have her eyes burn with frustration every time her garbled strangled voice tries to talk, or simply clever editing during the hanging scenes  ~ closing her tired eyes in a kind of restive peace when Frey feet start to swing before fading out on a flashback to a vision of herself embracing Robb that time just after Ned's death when she told him "We have to get the girls back .. and then we will kill them all."  A hundred ways to do this thing artistically and not be cheap. But what happens, I suppose, is people project their limitations for the character onto the character, just as I'm projecting possibilities now. Most of all, it's not a dead end gig for an actress, imo. It's a tragic, pretty horrific black hole of limbo for the fierce and honourable matriarch we’d come to know in Catelyn.

 

3./ “She undermines the dramatic power and tragedy of The Red Wedding.” Except done right as per point two, she doesn’t. Done right, she only accentuates its power in so far as Walder didn’t just take her life; he took her soul.

 

4./ “Brienne can take the role”  ~ Sorry, what? Losing the personal dimension of Brienne’s choice with “noose or sword” handed down to her, no less, than by the woman she made her original oath to?? Kiss goodbye to the rare (and literal) beast of a perfect cliffhanger, not to mention all the symbolism of Oathkeeper. Brienne swore her oath to Catelyn. She vowed to honour it to Sansa who in turn, rejected it. Which rather makes a nonsense of Brienne  Boulderheart castigating herself or Sansa Stoneheart rolling up with broken legs and claiming: “you broke your oath, bitch!” when Brienne did everything to fulfil it. To her face. Besides which, who doesn't want to see the look on Brienne's when she has to lure Jaime away from Raventree Hall to that fateful rendez-vous? So far in the novels, it's a perfectly calibrated plot and conflict of loyalties. Who knows, maybe the show has simply switched it for her hobson's choice in staying by the tower in S5, waiting for that candle, or seizing on the chance to avenge Renly. But as per Joanna's article, I really bloody hope not ... :bang:

 

5./ “Arya can take the role.” Arya’s on a vengeance kick, for sure. She is not yet THE assassin from Assassin’s Creed. So that vaunted return to the Riverlands I’m perhaps naively hoping having more to do with something involving a vision or Nymeria fishing Catelyn’s body out of the river establishing Arya’s long forgotten connection to her direwolf – a connection, as per most of the Stark kids, that’s been missing since season one. Now she’s blind, it seems the perfect opportunity to explore her interior life, and I really hope they do.

 

5./ “Blackfish can take the role.” ~ Agreed. This is the only viable non LSH route for me that keeps it personal from the p.o.v. of someone present at the wedding when Beric never attended and Talisa wasn’t much of a fan favourite on the show. I mean, when that world beating slash against the tree was over, he realised it was a set up and they comandeered his castle, what Lord in Westeros had better motivation to turn rogue? If Stoneheart has to go, then I’d be up for Blackfish fronting up The BWB with army surplus hempen rope at the ready like a badass motherf*cker. Provided the fab Clive Russell is back, of course (and McShane for Septon Meribald please, not a recast of Brynden Tully.) 

 

6./ “Her character goes nowhere.”  Errm .... put simply, no-one knows that and GRRM certainly doesn’t seem to think so. Besides, whatever she has in store for Jaime is unlikely to be pretty. I certainly don’t see it ending with anything other than a bang which will be hard for them to dull our ears to in the TV show with other means. She ain’t going out quietly or with Lannister chucking a bucket of water over her, while she decries her 'beautiful wickedness!', that’s for sure.

 

7./ “Two Stark resurrections in one season is shark-jumpingly lame.”  ~ but not, it seems to me, if those two plots are intimately connected around that wider theme. If Melisandre takes Jon’s body into the Riverlands on a quest to locate Thoros? Then Stoneheart sets the precedent (and danger factor) for his later resurrection in establishing the stakes.

    I haven't even addressed (though it seems the better way to end things as this bloated post bows out ..) the obvious speculation of her somehow playing a more direct role if Jon is brought back later. But like some, I have a feeling this may be her TWOW arc once the Jaime situation is dealt with. Crucially, in the show, any sign of her would be a massive deal and can't just be a pitstop on a sideshow conjuring tour to bring back Jon. Which means his eventual return would have to be pushed back to at least the S6 finale , preferably early season 7, while she's established as a character in her own right. That gives them time to dramatise the Frey revenge, effect the drama with Brienne & Jaime, and more importantly a chance to showcase the creature she's become ~ essential in establishing any redemptive arc, if one is to exist in Winds at all. For all we know, Arya or Sansa will simply euthanise her hateful ass when all is said and done.

    On the point of end games or how things may tie in on the resurrection front, it's always going to be intrigue me that the show has already laid the groundwork for any second chances in her relationship with Jon. Exhibit A? That aforementioned scene of heartfelt guilt we got in Cat's confession to Talisa that wasn't in the books ... as if they knew something we didn't.

   Since she's not Catelyn, except through the red mists of that one enduring memory, can Stoneheart even feel guilt anymore? Or is it as remote a notion to her as a whisper on the breeze? Those are the kinds of ideas that maybe fascinate George about her character, that certainly fascinate me, why the reduction of her to a one-note zombie stage trick irks me, and I reckon they’d be fools to ultimately let her story slide.

 

And if you made it to the end of this without contemplating hanging yourself, congratulations.

 

Go pour yourself a drink or something.

Edited by Damorian

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Stoneheart is the most overrated character in the entire series. If we don't get another crazy, murdering, obsessed, reanimated zombie by the end of the series it will all be well and good. We got enough of that north of the wall.

 

To me she's no different than a wight.

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Again I really think there won't be a stoneheart character, but that her overall theme of revenge against the Freys and a payback for the Red Wedding will be quite central to this season. It would make sense too, as it would be a good time for the Boltons to have their cummupance and for the North to get revenge on them.

Also having a Manderly character involved would bring all those little acts of revenge to a climax at one point, building over the season, rather than spread out over 2-3 seasons and losing momentum.

Edited by Channel4s-JonSnow

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I think she's epic and can't be replaced. That was the perfect ending to a storm of swords.

agreed. Not sure how you can be a fan of these books and the writing and then just associate LSH to be a "bloodthirsty zombie" and be happy that the character is omitted from the tv show. Given where Dance ends, she could play a pivotal role. 

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agreed. Not sure how you can be a fan of these books and the writing and then just associate LSH to be a "bloodthirsty zombie" and be happy that the character is omitted from the tv show. Given where Dance ends, she could play a pivotal role. 

She only appears in about 2% of the series, so it's rather easy to enjoy the books, but hating that one aspect of it.

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