why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[Khione]

Because she's an awful and utterly cheesy plot device I'd say.

[Damorian]

Only done wrong.

 

Done right, with the full inclusion of Nymeria's "discovery" psychically connecting to Arya in her blind state, Frey corpses showing up decorating trees in the Riverlands (with creepy guest-right salt stuffed in their mouths), "noose or sword"  and generally portraying her as 'forewarning-incarnate' for any potential resurrection of Jon by establishing the fact that Red God resurrections can go BADLY, it could easily be the best damn Gothic horror subplot the show has ever staged.

 

As I said on p.16 where I tried (but failed) to go through the main arguments for her inclusion (including this one) ~ if you want to project schlock horror cheese extraordinaire onto this character, you can.

 

If you want to project something with mind-blowingly good potential for the TV show, then equally - you can.

 

Depends if you see her as a 'mindless zombie' in the Alex Graves definition, or ultimately something more.

 

Ditto for the Deus Ex Machina/jumping the shark thing. You can grasp the notion that non-wight resurrection has already been established in this universe since way back in season 3, or you can ignore that and claim that bringing in LSH is somehow an admission of show logic impolding when we've just seen Darth Popsicle storm a keep of wildlings with Harryhausen skeletons and raise an undead army at command.

 

If anything (and quite unlike the wights & walkers, north of the wall) LSH is the one gig offers them a prime opportunity to explore the psyche of an undead character, as fractured, limited and vengeful a remnant as it may be.

 

Certainly in the wider context/run up to exploring what risks resurrection will entail for Jon, they should take it imo.

[Lord Ravenstark]

The show is an adaption. And due to budget, time and other issues, like appealing to casual viewers and such, it is highly simplified. As such it must condense characters, plots, sometimes killing whole arcs altogether. It is simply a issue of adaption. It doesn't mean, however, that it means said plots are not important in the books. They may be crucial to the main plots, it is just unpractical to put it on a TV screen. So they condense or kill plots, but will find an alternative way to get to the results. Or at least it is the ideal, the worst case simply means destruction of the plot and much maligned plot holes

[Richard Writhen]

That's just it. It would have to be done right or it would come off as cheesy horror movie kitsch.

 

 

 

 

But omitting high interest characters to simplify story arcs detracts from value of the finished product.

[Dragon in the North]

That's just it. It would have to be done right or it would come off as cheesy horror movie kitsch.

 

 

 

 

But omitting high interest characters to simplify story arcs detracts from value of the finished product.

Opinion on Lady Stoneheart is split, so I wouldn't consider her a high interest character.

[Richard Writhen]

If opinion is split, then obviously some feel that she is a high interest character.

[Dragon in the North]

If opinion is split, then obviously some feel that she is a high interest character.

And others feel she is not interesting at all.

[The Dragons Hand]

I beleive why the REAL reason why Ladystoneheart was cut out was they wanted Jon Snow's RETURN a REALLY BIG DEAL. If a other character does it first what the deal?

 

BUT

 

 

Beric Dondarrion was the first character to come back to life I guess D and D did not wanted too many characters coming back

This implies a level of foresight on D&D's part roughly equivilant to a fourth grader.

Needless to say I don't share this belief.

[Damorian]

It’s a bit of a literal dead end trying to make the case for Stoneheart here. You write a detailed, comprehensive breakdown of how the character could work, hoping to debate specific points. Instead, you keep on circling back to reading: “nah, naff zombie schlock that’ll never work on screen, ruins the red wedding, dead should stay dead etc etc.”  … endlessly, forever ... even when you address those points specifically.

 

Ultimately, it really is a case of using your imagination and thinking outside the box. If your reference points are limited to undead characters that didn’t work in other TV/movies, then there are deep and obvious pitfalls into awfulness just waiting for this character … cheap prosthetics, recasting, all CGI or Harvey Dent EXTREME with half a skull and exposed eyeball looking unintentionally comic, but here’s the trick … are you ready?  Whisper it gently ...

 

They don’t fall into them.

 

If I was Brian Gower and they handed me this gig, I’d think okay … what hasn’t been done? Besides the throat wound and prosthesis on her face, what could be powerful & visceral without being over the top or slapstick, maintaining an air of dread about the character? So you don’t have her head literally hanging off with OTT cgi like something out of Death Becomes Her. You have a slower build up of visual elements, like a shot of one or two live maggots escaping from her throat wound and crawling onto her bony fingers the first time she holds her hand across it, and tries but fails to talk.

 

You show the colours of her world as seen from her perspective as muted greys and olive drab (or better still: as washed out reds). People seen conversing with her at close quarters seem perturbed as though reacting to the fetid odour of decay. So many ways that wouldn't necessarily translate as “that tacky zombie horror thing we’ve seen a hundred times before.” 

 

But y'know ... how easy is it to f*ck that up when one cook too many spoils the broth or someone pivotal in your vfx team is hellbent on ‘gross out’? A cloud of flies and an ocean of cgi maggots sprewing from her throat instead of a few, unsettling real ones and you have all the visual subtlety of Drag Me To Hell. And who knows, maybe there was someone in Season 2 who originally wanted Renly’s own shadow behind him on the wall to be subtly digitally manipulated into the Stannis-demon hiding incognito, over and above the road they eventually chose of the smoke monster from Lost rolling into his tent while everybody watched it like the world's most conspicuous dry ice, tumbling across the floor?

 

As for where this leaves LSH's chances for S6, I don't know. There are two huge hurdles, really: the first that she even makes it in at all. The second: that she makes it in as Fairley, done justice. It would be better she stayed cut than finally show up after all this time, a schlocky rush job, minus due care and attention. I also personally think there is a strong chance that Alex Graves quote could be indicative of the ceiling of ambition for the character from others on the production and that if she doesn’t make it in, it’s quite possible D&D shared that reductive, fatalistic overview.

 

But I’m not inside their heads, and they may as yet surprise us. :devil:

[Khione]

This implies a level of foresight on D&D's part roughly equivilant to a fourth grader.

Needless to say I don't share this belief.

Beric's story was not a major focus. And he's not a big character (before or after his resurrections). I doubt a casual viewer even remembers much about him. But he was needed to establish the possibility of resurrection so it doesn't come off as deus-ex-machina when it happens to Jon. Now, Catelyn returning as Lady Stoneheart would have been a big deal which would diminish the impact of Jon's return or the impact of death in general, if suddenly they have a bunch of characters come back from the dead. I totally understand why they would want to limit the amount of resurrected characters to 2/3 (Beric, Gregor, Jon). Best not to let the audience get used to such narrative element.

[TheAzorAhai]

Beric's story was not a major focus. And he's not a big character (before or after his resurrections). I doubt a casual viewer even remembers much about him. But he was needed to establish the possibility of resurrection so it doesn't come off as deus-ex-machina when it happens to Jon. Now, Catelyn returning as Lady Stoneheart would have been a big deal which would diminish the impact of Jon's return or the impact of death in general, if suddenly they have a bunch of characters come back from the dead. I totally understand why they would want to limit the amount of resurrected characters to 2/3 (Beric, Gregor, Jon). Best not to let the audience get used to such narrative element.

Agreed. Beric to lay the ground work for Jon. And at this point, LSH would have only been for book fans. People who only watch the show would see it as a cop out. Death would lose its power in the story.

[Damorian]

Death would lose its power in the story.

 

 

Sure, if Catelyn Stark as we knew her just waltzed back into the story, no strings attached ...

 

But LSH doesn't buck the power of the grave; it oozes from her and still holds the dominion.

 

In many ways, she IS death.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I think now, afterall, she will be adapted in some way or fashion and fused with one of her daughters, Arya or Sansa. That is just the vibe I am getting.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I think now, afterall, she will be adapted in some way or fashion and fused with one of her daughters, Arya or Sansa. That is just the vibe I am getting.

I think the teheme of revenge for the Red Wedding and on the Boltons and Freys might be high on the list of things that happen this season. Whether they have an undead hooded figure at the head of it all is another question.

[jbob]

She undercuts Jon's death and return. Not just her, but her in combination with Beric and UnGregor. Now some will say that her purpose is to show that coming back has a negative. No, it doesn't really. She's screwed up because she went insane before she died and was dead for a long time. Beric in the book and especially the show was fine. His biggest problem in the books was that he had amnesia, and that's pretty much it. That kind of bodes well for Jon.

[Khione]

Only done wrong.

So like what GRRM did with her in the books then...

I know most people on this forum think he's God himself, especially those Rant&Rave whiners, but honestly he's good but flawed as a writer, he makes narrative mistakes just like any other author, it'd be good for some to finally realise it.

[Damorian]

Khione:

 

So like what GRRM did with her in the books then...

I know most people on this forum think he's God himself, especially those Rant&Rave whiners, but honestly he's good but flawed as a writer, he makes narrative mistakes just like any other author, it'd be good for some to finally realise it.

 

 

Well, if you were angling that generalisation at me too, I have no problem with disliking certain aspects of the novels in anything from superfluous characters to bum lines of dialogue, so your presumption is slightly patronising, tbh.

 

Liking LSH does not equate with viewing GRRM as infallible, and if I recall, I was also talking in that comment about the execution of the character, not whether or not some perceive to her existence be a mistake, which is a matter of opnion (if admittedly, one I've challenged quite a lot. :blushing: :bs: )

 

She has been portrayed (so far) in the books in a slow-burn, sinister and yes, even subtle manner, featuring everything from memorable lines of dialogue ("she don't speak ... but she remembers"), to atmospheric flashbacks (Arya/Nymeria) and solid plot work drawing in everything from a brilliant p.o.v chapter for Merrett Frey to framing Brienne's impossible choice with "noose or sword?" re: Jaime. 

 

I don't regard any of that or the skilful interweaving with: House Frey, Arya/Nymeria, Edmure/Roslin, The Blackfish & the BWB in The Riverlands where the show has developed amnesia, to be a balls up on GRRM'S part.

 

On the contrary, they are some of my favourite, most atmospheric scenes in the novels, which is why I mourn their (likely) loss.

[Damorian]

 

Wow, the old Lady Croneheart thread was reinstated. Thankyou, guys!

Of course, Edmure and Blackfish have subsequently been confirmed in The Riverlands making it all extremely intriguing.

Whether the likelihood of Wyman Manderley and his North Remembers speech being in weakens or strengthens the case for her ladyship? Over to you ....

Seems to me his one episode only gig would somewhat suggest the Frey (Bentos ) pies subplot won't be ported over wholesale, leaving the field for Frey vengeance open ...

 

 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

On the contrary, they are some of my favourite, most atmospheric scenes in the novels, which is why I mourn their (likely) loss.

Thing is, I actually liked a lot of the Lady Stoneheart scenes in the book, the way she was described was quite chilling, like a big boney bag of revenge. 

But at the same time, even though I like the scenes she's in, I hate the fact she exists. It felt like such a slap in the face to all the emotion I felt over the Red Wedding. Worse it felt like a 'Dallas' moment where people you thought were dead weren't. Little did I know I'd be experiencing that sort of facepalming moment over and over in the next couple of books as more and more characters I thought were dead turned out to actually be alive. 

[Mister Stoneheart]

I like the fairytale revenge element.  Lady Stoneheart works for me because it adds real horror to the books.  A beloved character gone wrong...but in a perverse way you can't wait for her to get her revenge.

What irks me beyond all belief is how the showrunners have made pains to incorporate things from the show back in that have been missing, "Hound returns", "Mountain is resurrected", "Manderly is in!", "Edmure will appear again", "Jaime is back in riverlands"...but still completely leave out Lady Stoneheart...or anything female related really.  Any news on Aunt Gemma?

Of course not.

Is Arianne back in after being missing.  Pshaw!!!

It's like they can't be bothered to fit in some of the missing components involving female characters---well, except adding back Shae in random scenes because coolness factor, boobs, ex-porn actress, etc.