why was Ladystoneheart cut out

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

I feel Jon warging Ghost would have been so easy to have set up - just a few sequences like Bran's in previous seasons.  Then in this season we could have seen Bran reaching out to Ghost after Jon's death and realising Jon is there.  It could have been done, if they'd wanted.

But it would have been bad TV. Having Jon in Ghost on TV is very hard to do well because inner "Ghost-thoughts" don't play nearly as well on TV (perhaps done as "voice-over") as they do in the books. So to avoid having to resort to voice-over, something I do not think they have done at all in the entire series, they needed to cut out Jon warging into Ghost. Once that aspect of the plot is cut out, the aspect of LS that works as a benefit in the books (upping the stakes for a Jon resurrection) becomes a hindrance (having to work in the warging elements that don't play well on TV). So when the nature of having only 10 episodes a season require a lot of plot cutting -- cutting LS became an easy call.

[Ser Quork]

11 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

But it would have been bad TV. Having Jon in Ghost on TV is very hard to do well because inner "Ghost-thoughts" don't play nearly as well on TV (perhaps done as "voice-over") as they do in the books. So to avoid having to resort to voice-over, something I do not think they have done at all in the entire series, they needed to cut out Jon warging into Ghost. 

They didn't do "inner Summer-thoughts" with Bran, why should they do that with Jon?  Once Bran set it up, it's easy to replicate with Jon and the viewers would have understood.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, Ser Quork said:

They didn't do "inner Ghost-thoughts" with Bran, why should they do that with Jon?  Once Bran set it up, it's easy to replicate with Jon and the viewers would have understood.

Totally different. Bran is alive -- so they can show him controlling Hodor by Bran's expression and effort at control while he is "zoning out" trying to effectuate the warging (or technically skinchanging as Hodor is not a wolf). Having Jon warg into Ghost would have been totally different as Jon's body would be dead and there would not be a good way to express the warging. And the Bran scenes were relatively short. Bran was not in Hodor very long each time. For Jon to be in Ghost for an extended period -- but not having a good way to show what Jon/Ghost was thinking -- would be frustrating to the audience and not particularly good TV.

There is a reason that the show has kept warging to a minimum. They needed to introduce it because I think it becomes critical to the endgame (a basic description of which was provided to D&D by GRRM before the first season). But when not necessary, they seem to have eliminated the use of warging -- and I think for good reason. And again --  a lot needed to be cut by necessity -- so cutting LS became an easy choice, especially when the decided to keep warging to a minimum.

So while you have expressed how they "could" have done it -- you have not explained why they "should" have done it.

[Meera of Tarth]

40 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

But if Jon comes back as the "real" Jon and not UnJon -- how do they explain the difference? Without the warging into Ghost -- which they seem to have cut for good reasons (hard to have wolf-thoughts in a TV show) -- it would create a big plot hole trying to explain why LS came back so different but Jon came back as himself. Sure they could do it -- but it would make no sense because there would not be a reason for the difference.

If Jon comes back as real Jon  the warging thing could be done focusing on his direwolf. The people could look at him differently, because he would do something unnatural or, Melisandre could react and tell something is going on.....etc

[Meera of Tarth]

11 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Totally different. Bran is alive -- so they can show him controlling Hodor by Bran's expression and effort at control while he is "zoning out" trying to effectuate the warging (or technically skinchanging as Hodor is not a wolf). Having Jon warg into Ghost would have been totally different as Jon's body would be dead and there would not be a good way to express the warging. And the Bran scenes were relatively short. Bran was not in Hodor very long each time. For Jon to be in Ghost for an extended period -- but not having a good way to show what Jon/Ghost was thinking -- would be frustrating to the audience and not particularly good TV.

There is a reason that the show has kept warging to a minimum. They needed to introduce it because I think it becomes critical to the endgame (a basic description of which was provided to D&D by GRRM before the first season). But when not necessary, they seem to have eliminated the use of warging -- and I think for good reason. And again --  a lot needed to be cut by necessity -- so cutting LS became an easy choice, especially when the decided to keep warging to a minimum.

So while you have expressed how they "could" have done it -- you have not explained why they "should" have done it.

There's also the fact that if Jon returns to life (explaining the warging or not) and nothing changes in him (which is a possibility if he is not UnJon) there will be the plothole about Beric, because he said he lost a part of him every time.

So Jon should at least be a bit different. He has returned form life only once, but....he has also spent several days dead (if they don't do the warging thing).

[UnmaskedLurker]

19 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There's also the fact that if Jon returns to life (explaining the warging or not) and nothing changes in him (which is a possibility if he is not UnJon) there will be the plothole about Beric, because he said he lost a part of him every time.

So Jon should at least be a bit different. He has returned form life only once, but....he has also spent several days dead (if they don't do the warging thing).

Your point about Beric is valid -- and I am not sure how they will address that conflict. It may be that they just ignore the inconsistency -- which they can get away with given that the Beric line came in Season 3 and he is a relatively minor character. LS could not be dismissed so simply.

[Meera of Tarth]

23 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Your point about Beric is valid -- and I am not sure how they will address that conflict. It may be that they just ignore the inconsistency -- which they can get away with given that the Beric line came in Season 3 and he is a relatively minor character. LS could not be dismissed so simply.

There have been bigger plot holes before so, if UnJon =Jon, IMO it won't be addressed.

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There have been bigger plot holes before so, if UnJon =Jon, IMO it won't be addressed.

I tend to agree -- but such a choice would not have been available if LS had been included -- her UnCat-ness would have been too central an issue to ignore when Jon gets resurrected. 

[Meera of Tarth]

20 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I tend to agree -- but such a choice would not have been available if LS had been included -- her UnCat-ness would have been too central an issue to ignore when Jon gets resurrected. 

Yes, agree.

So if UnJon=UnJon they will have Beric to justify it, and then LSH could be in the show as well (although I don't think it will happen, chances are 1%).

However, as you point out, she won't appear because Jon is more important than LSH and would diminish the impact.

But I still think that if Jon resurrected before LSH, she would still be a real shocking moment.

[ShadowKitteh]

Jon will be still be Jon, just New and Improved Jon Targaryen, sans Night's Watch vows, because they ended with his "death."

I honestly think we're going to still get LS. Getting rid of Arya's warging frees up having the scene where Nymeria drags Cat's body out of the river, then runs off when Beric and Thoros approach. Now they can postpone her until after Jon's resurrection, which gives Jon's plot line more suspense, because if they'd already brought her back, no one would be worried about Jon dying. 

Now they can wait for Brienne and Pod to get back to the Riverlands, and hear about someone leading the BWB in hanging Freys.

 

 

[Damorian]

I'm inclined to agree with Mister Stoneheart. Based on the Brienne/Sansa scene, a Cat Stark LSH is cut for sure.

Fuck 'noose or sword' ...  all Brienne would have to say now to save herself and Pod is: "I am sworn into the service of your daughter, Sansa Stark. I'll take you to her."  Conflict over.

So now, I think that Blackfish will be the one to deliver an ultimatum of sorts re: Jaime to Brienne, with Sansa first ordering her to assist in Lannister diplomacy on her great uncle's behalf at the seige of Riverrun. If Sansa has expressly told her to take orders from Brynden, she will not easily be able to refuse him.

Blackfish escapes to head up the BWB vengeance kick and plan the assault on the Twins. Arya shows up to maybe top off Walder. Brienne delivers Jaime to the outlaws in the finale.

It's all pretty predictable really, but alas (and as much as I mostly liked their editorial decisions with the book material in seasons 1-3) it's not hard to see how D&D's usual penchant in these latter seasons for over-shuffling the deck and cutting out my favourite stuff won't strike again this year.

It will, and in a way I've come to expect it.

My hunch is that GOT will be one of those shows where the earlier seasons are looked back on more fondly than the latter. Maybe it's the Dorne effect, I don't know. How the sept scene was mishandled? Bypassing common-sensical story beats like Jaime's Tysha reveal to Tyrion which are nothing to do with money & logistics, everything to do with the basic plot mechanics of why Tyrion detours to Tywin's room, but are still deemed less important than a superfluous monologue about crushing beetles? More and more from season 4, I lose faith in the decision-making at the top, where the emphasis now seems more on rushing to the finish line than savouring the nuances of story along the way.

But you know what? As much as the highly likely chances of them either messing up or excising the Stoneheart plot far outweigh the chances of them doing it, (and right) I hope this season proves me wrong. Massively. And hell, maybe a merciless Lord Blackfish working in tandem with his great-niece will really work on screen.

Benioff said this was the season he was proudest of, and who knows? Maybe with Dorne - please God! -in the rear view (sandsnakes popping up again in one short scene to strike a deal with Dany, the end?) Jon's rez done convincingly, and the Riverlands done justice, the fans will be too.

The misconcepton is that all book readers somehow want the show to fail and look down on it with some God-awful sense of hubris is exactly that: misguided. I want the show to soar. I want to love the show AND the books like I did in earlier seasons, not cringe at awful dialogue, or rushed, ill-thought out scenes that cheapen the whole thing.

Most of all, I want the The Riverlands to still be awesome, Edmure to get that chilling line from Jaime about his offspring in a catapult, and a tragic, broken Thoros - irrespective of his new liege lord or lady - to hang those gallows high.

 

[Ser Quork]

8 minutes ago, Damorian said:

 

I'm inclined to agree with Mister Stoneheart. Based on the Brienne/Sansa scene, book LSH is cut for sure.

Fuck 'noose or sword', All Brienne would have to say to save herself and Pod is: "I am sworn into the service of your daughter, Sansa Stark. I'll take you to her." Conflict over.

So now, I think that Blackfish will be the one to deliver an ultimatum of sorts re: Jaime to Brienne, with Sansa first ordering her to assist in Lannister diplomacy on her great uncle's behalf at the seige of Riverrun. If Sansa has expressly told her to take orders from Brynden, she will not easily be able to refuse him.

Blackfish escapes to head up the BWB veangeance kick and plan the assault on the Twins. Arya shows up to maybe top off Walder. Brienne delivers Jaime to the outlaws in the finale.

It's all pretty predictable really, but alas (and as much as I mostly liked their editorial decisions with the book material in seasons 1-3) it's not hard to see how D&D's usual penchant in these latter seasons for over-shuffling the deck and cutting out my favourite stuff won't strike again this year.

It will, and in a way I've come to expect it.

My hunch is that GOT will be one of those shows where the earlier seasons are looked back on more fondly than the latter. Maybe it's the Dorne effect, I don't know. How the sept scene was mishandled? Bypassing common-sensical story beats like Jaime's Tysha reveal to Tyrion which are nothing to do with money & logistics, everything to do with the basic plot mechanics of why Tyrion detours to Tywin's room, but are still deemed less important than a superflurous monologue about crushing beetles? More and more from season 4, I lose faith in the decision-making at the top, where the emphasis now seems more on rushing to the finish line than savouring the nuances of story along the way.

But you know what? As much as the highly likely chances of them either messing up or excising the Stoneheart plot far outweigh the chances of them doing it, (and right) I hope this season proves me wrong. Massively. And hell, maybe a merciless Lord Blackfish working in tandem with his great-niece will really work on screen.

Benioff said this was the season he was proudest of, and who knows? Maybe with Dorne - please God! -in the rear view (sandsnakes popping up again in one short scene to strike a deal with Dany, the end?) Jon's rez done convincingly, and the Riverlands done justice, the fans will be too.

The misconcepton is that all book readers somehow want the show to fail and look down on it with some God-awful sense of hubris is exactly that: misguided. I want the show to soar. I want to love the show AND the books like I did in earlier seasons, not cringe at awful dialogue, or rushed, ill-thought out scenes that cheapen the whole thing.

 

Well said.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Damorian said:

I'm inclined to agree with Mister Stoneheart. Based on the Brienne/Sansa scene, a Cat Stark LSH is cut for sure.

Fuck 'noose or sword' ...  all Brienne would have to say now to save herself and Pod is: "I am sworn into the service of your daughter, Sansa Stark. I'll take you to her."  Conflict over.

So now, I think that Blackfish will be the one to deliver an ultimatum of sorts re: Jaime to Brienne, with Sansa first ordering her to assist in Lannister diplomacy on her great uncle's behalf at the seige of Riverrun. If Sansa has expressly told her to take orders from Brynden, she will not easily be able to refuse him.

Blackfish escapes to head up the BWB vengeance kick and plan the assault on the Twins. Arya shows up to maybe top off Walder. Brienne delivers Jaime to the outlaws in the finale.

It's all pretty predictable really, but alas (and as much as I mostly liked their editorial decisions with the book material in seasons 1-3) it's not hard to see how D&D's usual penchant in these latter seasons for over-shuffling the deck and cutting out my favourite stuff won't strike again this year.

It will, and in a way I've come to expect it.

My hunch is that GOT will be one of those shows where the earlier seasons are looked back on more fondly than the latter. Maybe it's the Dorne effect, I don't know. How the sept scene was mishandled? Bypassing common-sensical story beats like Jaime's Tysha reveal to Tyrion which are nothing to do with money & logistics, everything to do with the basic plot mechanics of why Tyrion detours to Tywin's room, but are still deemed less important than a superfluous monologue about crushing beetles? More and more from season 4, I lose faith in the decision-making at the top, where the emphasis now seems more on rushing to the finish line than savouring the nuances of story along the way.

But you know what? As much as the highly likely chances of them either messing up or excising the Stoneheart plot far outweigh the chances of them doing it, (and right) I hope this season proves me wrong. Massively. And hell, maybe a merciless Lord Blackfish working in tandem with his great-niece will really work on screen.

Benioff said this was the season he was proudest of, and who knows? Maybe with Dorne - please God! -in the rear view (sandsnakes popping up again in one short scene to strike a deal with Dany, the end?) Jon's rez done convincingly, and the Riverlands done justice, the fans will be too.

The misconcepton is that all book readers somehow want the show to fail and look down on it with some God-awful sense of hubris is exactly that: misguided. I want the show to soar. I want to love the show AND the books like I did in earlier seasons, not cringe at awful dialogue, or rushed, ill-thought out scenes that cheapen the whole thing.

Most of all, I want the The Riverlands to still be awesome, Edmure to get that chilling line from Jaime about his offspring in a catapult, and a tragic, broken Thoros - irrespective of his new liege lord or lady - to hang those gallows high.

 

I completely agree with everything you say.

The previous seasons (even s4) are amazing just like the books and while I'd like to see LS it's extremely unlikely it will happen.

However; they know that adding her would be plausible but instead they are rushing to th ending......

I hope The Blackfish makes a good Lsh because I still want to like the show although it's being very difficult now.

[LStoneheart]

Brienne swearing to Sansa changes nothing. Brienne goes to Riverrun to find Arya and even if its following orders from Sansa leaves Sansa behind.

 

Beric isnt coming back. How to explain his death other than something supernatural?

[Mister Stoneheart]

Well said, Damorian.

It's odd because all the pieces are positioned perfectly.  Thoros is back, there's a hanging, BwB are in the riverlands, Jaime is too...it's all there, ready to go.

But nope!

[Neds Secret]

2 hours ago, Damorian said:

I'm inclined to agree with Mister Stoneheart. Based on the Brienne/Sansa scene, a Cat Stark LSH is cut for sure.

Fuck 'noose or sword' ...  all Brienne would have to say now to save herself and Pod is: "I am sworn into the service of your daughter, Sansa Stark. I'll take you to her."  Conflict over.

So now, I think that Blackfish will be the one to deliver an ultimatum of sorts re: Jaime to Brienne, with Sansa first ordering her to assist in Lannister diplomacy on her great uncle's behalf at the seige of Riverrun. If Sansa has expressly told her to take orders from Brynden, she will not easily be able to refuse him.

Blackfish escapes to head up the BWB vengeance kick and plan the assault on the Twins. Arya shows up to maybe top off Walder. Brienne delivers Jaime to the outlaws in the finale.

It's all pretty predictable really, but alas (and as much as I mostly liked their editorial decisions with the book material in seasons 1-3) it's not hard to see how D&D's usual penchant in these latter seasons for over-shuffling the deck and cutting out my favourite stuff won't strike again this year.

It will, and in a way I've come to expect it.

My hunch is that GOT will be one of those shows where the earlier seasons are looked back on more fondly than the latter. Maybe it's the Dorne effect, I don't know. How the sept scene was mishandled? Bypassing common-sensical story beats like Jaime's Tysha reveal to Tyrion which are nothing to do with money & logistics, everything to do with the basic plot mechanics of why Tyrion detours to Tywin's room, but are still deemed less important than a superfluous monologue about crushing beetles? More and more from season 4, I lose faith in the decision-making at the top, where the emphasis now seems more on rushing to the finish line than savouring the nuances of story along the way.

But you know what? As much as the highly likely chances of them either messing up or excising the Stoneheart plot far outweigh the chances of them doing it, (and right) I hope this season proves me wrong. Massively. And hell, maybe a merciless Lord Blackfish working in tandem with his great-niece will really work on screen.

Benioff said this was the season he was proudest of, and who knows? Maybe with Dorne - please God! -in the rear view (sandsnakes popping up again in one short scene to strike a deal with Dany, the end?) Jon's rez done convincingly, and the Riverlands done justice, the fans will be too.

The misconcepton is that all book readers somehow want the show to fail and look down on it with some God-awful sense of hubris is exactly that: misguided. I want the show to soar. I want to love the show AND the books like I did in earlier seasons, not cringe at awful dialogue, or rushed, ill-thought out scenes that cheapen the whole thing.

Most of all, I want the The Riverlands to still be awesome, Edmure to get that chilling line from Jaime about his offspring in a catapult, and a tragic, broken Thoros - irrespective of his new liege lord or lady - to hang those gallows high.

 

That all sounds reasonable, well said!

[DireDoodle]

22 minutes ago, Mister Stoneheart said:

Well said, Damorian.

It's odd because all the pieces are positioned perfectly.  Thoros is back, there's a hanging, BwB are in the riverlands, Jaime is too...it's all there, ready to go.

But nope!

Agree.  Hope I'm proven wrong.  The stage is certainly set though but I don't see it happening.  Think that window closed with S4.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

While it seems a bit strange to do the LS storyline without LS, I can actually see how it would all work, and I might actually prefer it. 

This whole season might be seen as a statement on revenge in some ways.
We already have a big bang with Dorne which has reduced its whole plot to being the extreme desire for revenge and what that means.

You have Sansa who having endured Winterfell,  will be looking for revenge.

Cercei and Jamie seem now to be motivated to avenge the death of their children. Cercei will certainly be pissed about the walk of shame

Dany will probably get her own back on the Dothraki who enslaved her, and come back and get badass on the Harpy somehow. 

Jon, when he wakes up, will want to avenge himself on those who killed him, and possibly on Ramsey who he might have found out has taken Winterfell and abused his sister.

So with all that revenge going it, it makes sense to have the BWB turn up, to be an agent of revenge. Whether thats with the Blackfish or not, I don't think it much matters. In fact I prefer they represent a general trend of vengance rather than simply being led by an old stinky zombie lady. 

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

While it seems a bit strange to do the LS storyline without LS, I can actually see how it would all work, and I might actually prefer it. 

This whole season might be seen as a statement on revenge in some ways.
We already have a big bang with Dorne which has reduced its whole plot to being the extreme desire for revenge and what that means.

You have Sansa who having endured Winterfell,  will be looking for revenge.

Cercei and Jamie seem now to be motivated to avenge the death of their children. Cercei will certainly be pissed about the walk of shame

Dany will probably get her own back on the Dothraki who enslaved her, and come back and get badass on the Harpy somehow. 

Jon, when he wakes up, will want to avenge himself on those who killed him, and possibly on Ramsey who he might have found out has taken Winterfell and abused his sister.

So with all that revenge going it, it makes sense to have the BWB turn up, to be an agent of revenge. Whether thats with the Blackfish or not, I don't think it much matters. In fact I prefer they represent a general trend of vengance rather than simply being led by an old stinky zombie lady. 

But LSH is not just a zombie lady. She is The one who needs this revenge. And she does it because UnCat is a dark version of her, and Unpeople are darker than their previous versions, so it makes sense. 

From my point of view, Blackfish is the only possible logical choice to lead the revenge if she doesn't appear, but it won't have the same impact because he didn't saw the wedding, although he also lost his family there (and thus the only logical choice if not LSH).

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Yes I understand, and on some level it might be interesting to some, I personally think it ruins a tragic situation and a good character. But the theme of revenge can translate to others and I wouldn't have much of a problem with them doing BWB without LS.