Sacrificing Plot For Actors' Sake

[Dragon in the North]

No, this isn't about the actress. This is about having a certain plot conducted by someone the viewers already know and might relate (if slightly) instead of introducing yet another character.

That said, in this particular case, I think the show will loose flavor by not depicting Dorne as a land in which women can inherit (as they seemingly can't in the show). But I don't think the issue lays so much in trimming a character, but in the character they've chose to trim. I think they should have cut Ellaria and sent Oberyn with Arianne. It will be almost the same character, except for the bastard thing and the sex scenes, but once season five hits, we have a more interesting character as Arianne can be the one woman heiress in Westeros.

The actresses who play the sand snakes commented that women have equal rights in Dorne. This seems to indicate Dornish Law is in.

http://watchersonthewall.com/the-telegraph-interviews-jessica-henwick-and-rosabell-laurenti-sellers/

[Dragon Stoned]

I guess another point to make for everyone who's upset about certain screen time to happen for certain actors/actresses.....what did you expect to happen, particularly when the show got as popular as it did? TV is a business. If they weren't concerned about appealing to their audiences and ratings, then they wouldn't get the requisite budget or continuance of the series from HBO. It's far too easy to lose an audience with a major casting change.

It is my opinion the show IS too "big". They are wasting time and energy in these ornate settings while scrimping on material. I don't think we (the viewers) need a Hollywood "location" (ancient buildings, etc that cause hazard and hassle with production) for the show to be THAT gloriously rich. That is where the waste is coming from. I would rather see a decrease in location dynamics and an increase in new characters.

So if you are talking about budget, they should have just diverged from the story on Day One. Ned Stark is alive and so is every other "main character" from season 1. But instead, Lena Headey and Coster Waldou are prime actors so they get all the writing. Sean Bean's death was shocking because you ddn't expect a major actor to die. Why not continue that tradition? I think that is what made the show good was always moving to new things/people but not they have stagnated and are going straight for popularity over authenticity.

Dance With The One Who Brung You?

Oh and if they did the above, maybe they could have more episodes instead of massive truncation.

[The Last Left Fighting]

Personally I've come to terms with the show is going to be wildly different to the point of being its own entity, were they not striving to reach the same end as the books. There's plots and characters I enjoy in the books that aren't there, or have been given to some other character to play out. Heck, even certain favorite characters of mine are just characterized differently on the show, which at one time was enough to irk me. Not anymore. I look at the show for what it is, and I don't try to compare, that way I can still enjoy both separately without raising my blood pressure.

Characters who get killed off in the show or their plans don't work/aren't shown, may not be important in the long run for the books, or maybe they are for a time before their plans are quashed. We can't be sure because the show has to cut out a lot, so we're never going to get as much development of a person or a plotline. I try not to take that as "Oh this didn't come up in the show, I shouldn't care about it in the books anymore."

To address specific plotlines, my thoughts...

Sansa - I think what they're doing with her is speeding up a lot of things. She got through pretty much all her published book material last season, so if she was to be in S5 at all, they'd have to delve into where she's headed in TWoW and beyond, or at least the show's version of that journey. So it's going to seem odd because we haven't read it first, I think. As to why she's a focus, well she's a character that's starting to be involved in more and grander plotlines compared to when she was just a prisoner in KL, so that's probably why she's around more. Her plotlines might need to be set up now for what will happen later.

Dorne - I'll agree, there are some definite problems, and this is one of the regions in the show I'm least satisfied with compared to the books. I think it was a mistake cutting out some of the characters like Arianne, and how they've set up Ellaria and the Sand Snakes to act like. I can only hope as the season goes on we get more than such quick, shallow glances at this area. It may be a slow-starter as a plot this season, I have no idea.

Griff - Exciting in the books, probably too late, and with too much baggage to insert into the show now. With only around 2-3 seasons left, there's not a lot of time for the audience to get invested in him, considering we meet him in the books so far in the series, when he's already about to invade as it is. We don't get to see his quest for retaking the throne from its impetus like a character such as Dany, Robb, or Stannis. It's just boom, he's (probably) the long lost Aegon, he has an army already, he's going to Westeros A.S.A.P. We don't get invested enough. So in the show when they have even less time than pages in the book to rectify that, it's easier to cut him out and give pieces of him to other characters (e.g. Varys backing Dany instead of Griff).

Disclaimer - no one is perfect sadly, there is plenty of stuff in the show that is superfluous and could have been given to other characters, but my general thing is, they've got to cut a lot. People will not be happy, but it's better if you can separate show and book.

[The Reckoner]

I thought Trystane was going to be Griff.

[ummester]

Does it ultimately matter if book characters are changed/sacrificed for specific actors?

I don't think we can know for sure until the end of both the books and show. I suspect, however, that so long as the same basic story is told overall, it will not matter that much.

I am far more concerned about tonal story changes than character changes. What I find most disconcerting about season 5 is that it has skipped setting the desolate post war of 5 kings environment, that was half of the text in Feast for Crows. The sparrows were sad and desperate before they were militant - I don't care if this is relayed by Lancel or someone else, what I care about is that it is relayed with the right tone, build up and tonal shifts. The sparrows in the show have started militant.

Arianne is one of the best female characters in the saga, IMO - but it doesn't matter if she is not there, so long as the correct emotional beats of the story are established without her.

I suspect AFFC and ADWD had a lot of plot filler and the show is looking to side step this by using actors already on the payroll. In itself, this is not a bad thing, so long as the show gets the overall mood right. So far, season 5 is not as bleak as the last 2 books, so I am not sure the tone has been correctly interpreted.

[Dragon Stoned]

Does it ultimately matter if book characters are changed/sacrificed for specific actors?

I think so. Brienne and Pod is a worthless device to keep pursuing. And who/what are they pursuing? ANOTHER worthless plot device with Sansa and Littlefinger. And what are THEY involved in? THE BOLTONS.

Wow, there are 3 areas that could have made room for new characters. Samwell's family is another. We should never again see pitiful dramas unfolding in the bedroom of Marjorie and Tommen....... and King's Landing should really not even be a central plot point anymore except where it involves the realm/world as a whole. I am actually shocked they included Arya this season. Sure, it is fun to see but even that is connected to nothing else and is simply chaff that could make room for other things.

I say more episodes in exchange for the mega-ornate sets.

[atheron70]

I think so. Brienne and Pod is a worthless device to keep pursuing. And who/what are they pursuing? ANOTHER worthless plot device with Sansa and Littlefinger. And what are THEY involved in? THE BOLTONS.

Wow, there are 3 areas that could have made room for new characters. Samwell's family is another. We should never again see pitiful dramas unfolding in the bedroom of Marjorie and Tommen....... and King's Landing should really not even be a central plot point anymore except where it involves the realm/world as a whole. I am actually shocked they included Arya this season. Sure, it is fun to see but even that is connected to nothing else and is simply chaff that could make room for other things.

I say more episodes in exchange for the mega-ornate sets.

It's only a worthless plot device from the perspective of someone who has read the books. Pod has been a fan favorite for people watching the show, and Brienne of course gave her oath. Those stories need to continue or people will wonder where the hell they went. I actually like the fact that they found a way to keep the characters in the show but tie it in to an overall more important storyline with Sansa and the Bolton's. Again, I simply don't get how you find that unimportant. For all we know, Sansa has a similar role to play in TWoW. As the only known Stark alive (people don;t know Rickon and Bran are) she has a huge part in the Northern storyline, and I think they made a strong move as it allows them to put Theon, Sansa and Ramsay on screen in the same storyline rather than having two separate stories to devote time to each week.

As for King's Landing and Arya, how you can say that's superfluous is beyond me. As far as King's Landing goes, I assume the Tommen/Margaery scenes are there to set up a more intense battle for Tommen between Cersei/Margaery. Given that Tommen is older in the show, they have to make more effort to show both women's manipulations of him, as he won't be as easily dealt with as the 8 year old version in the books. As for Arya, we have NO CLUE where her journey will take her in TWoW after the House of Black and White. It's ignorant to say that its unconnected when in reality she can still have a major part to play that we are unaware of.

I'd just like to reiterate, I'm a huge fan of the book series, but I also support the show and its changes. With an adaptation like this, its downright silly to introduce a rush of new characters when you've already crossed the halfway mark of the shows time on air. They've done, at least in my opinion, a good job of starting to move several characters stories into the same general vicinity, which will cut down on the amount of back-and-forth they'll have to do to fit all the characters in each week and rather give us a greater amount of time with each storyline.

EDIT: Some of the things said above I don't actually know if they'll occur or not (i.e. Sansa going to the North). However, these are each my personal theories given the trailers and general thoughts expressed on the forums. Just wanted to add that disclaimer in so I didn't derail the thread into a "will Sansa actually go to the North, etc." thread. Want to keep it on topic.

[Dragon Stoned]

It's only a worthless plot device from the perspective of someone who has read the books. Pod has been a fan favorite for people watching the show, and Brienne of course gave her oath. Those stories need to continue or people will wonder where the hell they went. I actually like the fact that they found a way to keep the characters in the show but tie it in to an overall more important storyline with Sansa and the Bolton's. Again, I simply don't get how you find that unimportant. For all we know, Sansa has a similar role to play in TWoW. As the only known Stark alive (people don;t know Rickon and Bran are) she has a huge part in the Northern storyline, and I think they made a strong move as it allows them to put Theon, Sansa and Ramsay on screen in the same storyline rather than having two separate stories to devote time to each week.

As for King's Landing and Arya, how you can say that's superfluous is beyond me. As far as King's Landing goes, I assume the Tommen/Margaery scenes are there to set up a more intense battle for Tommen between Cersei/Margaery. Given that Tommen is older in the show, they have to make more effort to show both women's manipulations of him, as he won't be as easily dealt with as the 8 year old version in the books. As for Arya, we have NO CLUE where her journey will take her in TWoW after the House of Black and White. It's ignorant to say that its unconnected when in reality she can still have a major part to play that we are unaware of.

I'd just like to reiterate, I'm a huge fan of the book series, but I also support the show and its changes. With an adaptation like this, its downright silly to introduce a rush of new characters when you've already crossed the halfway mark of the shows time on air. They've done, at least in my opinion, a good job of starting to move several characters stories into the same general vicinity, which will cut down on the amount of back-and-forth they'll have to do to fit all the characters in each week and rather give us a greater amount of time with each storyline.

EDIT: Some of the things said above I don't actually know if they'll occur or not (i.e. Sansa going to the North). However, these are each my personal theories given the trailers and general thoughts expressed on the forums. Just wanted to add that disclaimer in so I didn't derail the thread into a "will Sansa actually go to the North, etc." thread. Want to keep it on topic.

About Arya, I only meant it is a sort of "closed" plot in that she is interacting with no one from previously except Jakken (sp?). They could have clipped her, but I said I enjoyed seeing that.

As for Brienne and Pod, fan favorites or not, they're going to die so why not get it over (like Mance) and move on?

Everything in King's Landing needs to be paired down. The story has gone away from there to the far corners of Westeros and the known world. The only person/people that have left there in the show is Tyrion and Varys (and Varys isn't even there in the book). Yet, there are book subplots happening all over Westeros and the known world that are clipped to make room for a Marjorie V Cersei catfight. I understand there's a MAJOR plot with Cersei and that's great, I can't wait to see it. Jamie was literally jammed into the script this season. As was Sansa. To me, the Bolton story is worthless. They jammed Sansa into it the same way they did Jamie. Yes, Littlefinger has a massive role to play, but at what cost? Martin left out Varys for 2 books. And Varys is VERY important. I cannot believe anyone would think these actors would not sit on the bench for a season (like Bran) and return later. Jamming characters in at the expense of new plots is not cool with me.

I honestly think this comes down to:

- the show DECIDING to end after 7 seasons

- omitting new characters/plots

- taking too long to "tie up" plots that should not continue

- sticking to 10 episodes

- falling into "vanity" with super ornate locations/sets

The show could go on for 10 seasons or more! But it is not adapting to the origin story for the sake of wrapping things up in 20 more episodes (after this season). Why anyone would give up on this show is beyond my understanding. If they would only follow Martin's plot devices, the show could go on indefinitely.

If I have to watch more 10 minute blocks of Samwell and Gilly I think I will do something I may regret :) Just sayin

[Colonel Green]

I cannot believe anyone would think these actors would not sit on the bench for a season (like Bran) and return later.

Letting actors go like that will always be a risk, particularly with people the show has elevated demand for. Moreover, it would involve letting them out of their contracts, so they could demand more money. With Isaac, frankly, the risk is minimal, not only because he's still a kid but because the show hasn't done very much to raise his profile to the point where he'd get a ton of offers to do other things.

Why anyone would give up on this show is beyond my understanding. If they would only follow Martin's plot devices, the show could go on indefinitely.

A production on this scale cannot go on indefinitely, particularly with the cast.

[atheron70]

About Arya, I only meant it is a sort of "closed" plot in that she is interacting with no one from previously except Jakken (sp?). They could have clipped her, but I said I enjoyed seeing that.

As for Brienne and Pod, fan favorites or not, they're going to die so why not get it over (like Mance) and move on?

Everything in King's Landing needs to be paired down. The story has gone away from there to the far corners of Westeros and the known world. The only person/people that have left there in the show is Tyrion and Varys (and Varys isn't even there in the book). Yet, there are book subplots happening all over Westeros and the known world that are clipped to make room for a Marjorie V Cersei catfight. I understand there's a MAJOR plot with Cersei and that's great, I can't wait to see it. Jamie was literally jammed into the script this season. As was Sansa. To me, the Bolton story is worthless. They jammed Sansa into it the same way they did Jamie. Yes, Littlefinger has a massive role to play, but at what cost? Martin left out Varys for 2 books. And Varys is VERY important. I cannot believe anyone would think these actors would not sit on the bench for a season (like Bran) and return later. Jamming characters in at the expense of new plots is not cool with me.

I honestly think this comes down to:

- the show DECIDING to end after 7 seasons

- omitting new characters/plots

- taking too long to "tie up" plots that should not continue

- sticking to 10 episodes

- falling into "vanity" with super ornate locations/sets

The show could go on for 10 seasons or more! But it is not adapting to the origin story for the sake of wrapping things up in 20 more episodes (after this season). Why anyone would give up on this show is beyond my understanding. If they would only follow Martin's plot devices, the show could go on indefinitely.

If I have to watch more 10 minute blocks of Samwell and Gilly I think I will do something I may regret :) Just sayin

As the poster above mentioned, the issue with the shows longevity isn't just a popularity consideration. I will disagree, though, that the show could go on indefinitely. Even with my favorite tv shows, it gets difficult to follow week by week for years on end. When you add in the natural business considerations (and yes GoT is a part of a business) it makes sense to end it sooner rather than later. Think of it this way: D&D had the option of trying to continue the series indefinitely while GRRM wrote OR they could announce a definitive ending date. Now, for us book readers of course option 1 sounds delightful. BUT the problem is what if HBO decided the show and actors became too expensive and cut the cord? We end up with a VERY rushed ending that does no justice to the show. With the announced ending, D&D have the ability to tailor the next three seasons to build to the appropriate climax. Far preferable imo.

[Gian Snow]

I'm glad they are cutting out so many plot points and condensing others. I would be bored to death seeing Brienne wandering around the river lands, Jon watching the wall melt, Jaime wining, dining and negotiating across the river lands, the Dorne plot which does an overly drawn out circle before it gets anywhere, Quentyn's pointless adventure, Tyrion being a moan bag on his LOTR style adventure, Sansa eating the Vale out of lemons etc etc

I agree in that AFFC and ADWD has some seemingly pointless events and turns.

I do hope to see the brotherhood without banners, even if Stoneheart isn't with them. And I hope to see the Blackfish, or some word of the riverlands. There must be someone killing Freys out there right??

[Dragon Stoned]

As the poster above mentioned, the issue with the shows longevity isn't just a popularity consideration. I will disagree, though, that the show could go on indefinitely. Even with my favorite tv shows, it gets difficult to follow week by week for years on end. When you add in the natural business considerations (and yes GoT is a part of a business) it makes sense to end it sooner rather than later. Think of it this way: D&D had the option of trying to continue the series indefinitely while GRRM wrote OR they could announce a definitive ending date. Now, for us book readers of course option 1 sounds delightful. BUT the problem is what if HBO decided the show and actors became too expensive and cut the cord? We end up with a VERY rushed ending that does no justice to the show. With the announced ending, D&D have the ability to tailor the next three seasons to build to the appropriate climax. Far preferable imo.

What you say makes complete sense. I guess I am just sad that is the case.

As for it being expensive and a business (the prior poster mentioned that) they are really bloating the show with super ridiculous (yet beautiful) locations and VERY expensive crews to operate them. The water gardens scene (in that documentary or whatever about season 5) they talked of how unreal it was to shoot in because they couldn't get normal equipment up there and there were all these complications with other amazing sets sites. That stuff costs SO much money. I believe the show cut its own throat. I can name at least 10 very good TV shows that went on past 7 seasons and still lived up.

However, you are right that without foreknowledge of the ENTIRE "script" according to Martin, they cannot guarantee a sound ending. :)

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think so. Brienne and Pod is a worthless device to keep pursuing. And who/what are they pursuing? ANOTHER worthless plot device with Sansa and Littlefinger. And what are THEY involved in? THE BOLTONS.

Wow, there are 3 areas that could have made room for new characters. Samwell's family is another. We should never again see pitiful dramas unfolding in the bedroom of Marjorie and Tommen....... and King's Landing should really not even be a central plot point anymore except where it involves the realm/world as a whole. I am actually shocked they included Arya this season. Sure, it is fun to see but even that is connected to nothing else and is simply chaff that could make room for other things.

I say more episodes in exchange for the mega-ornate sets.

I'm really confused by your entire position.

You think that they should cut material for established chatacers that the audience cares about in order to expand the world into new places/characters who they will have to make the audience care about? There is NO WAY that will work, and I'm quite glad you're not running the show.

As for Brienne and Pod, did you like their book material? If you did, she is starting exactly where she did in the book - on a quest the observer knows will probably be fruitless. If you didn't like her book plot, well OK, but then you have to realize that many of us did not like the Griffs/turtles plot line or the ironborn, or Arianne/hotah Dorne.

[atheron70]

What you say makes complete sense. I guess I am just sad that is the case.

As for it being expensive and a business (the prior poster mentioned that) they are really bloating the show with super ridiculous (yet beautiful) locations and VERY expensive crews to operate them. The water gardens scene (in that documentary or whatever about season 5) they talked of how unreal it was to shoot in because they couldn't get normal equipment up there and there were all these complications with other amazing sets sites. That stuff costs SO much money. I believe the show cut its own throat. I can name at least 10 very good TV shows that went on past 7 seasons and still lived up.

However, you are right that without foreknowledge of the ENTIRE "script" according to Martin, they cannot guarantee a sound ending. :)

That's fair. I understand that perspective completely and while I don't totally agree with it, I can see your points. Im with you in that I know several shows that have gone on for ten seasons. Stargate SG-1 ran for 10 and is one of my personal favorites. However, despite the fact these all remained "good," there is still a drop in quality as the show goes on typically. GoT has become such a phenomenon that I agree with their decision to end it while they are ahead. I would just hate to see such an epic story finish meekly you know? But of course, us book readers will aways want more but sometimes we don't get it :)

[WinterRaven]

I think so. Brienne and Pod is a worthless device to keep pursuing. And who/what are they pursuing? ANOTHER worthless plot device with Sansa and Littlefinger. And what are THEY involved in? THE BOLTONS.

Wow, there are 3 areas that could have made room for new characters. Samwell's family is another. We should never again see pitiful dramas unfolding in the bedroom of Marjorie and Tommen....... and King's Landing should really not even be a central plot point anymore except where it involves the realm/world as a whole. I am actually shocked they included Arya this season. Sure, it is fun to see but even that is connected to nothing else and is simply chaff that could make room for other things.

I say more episodes in exchange for the mega-ornate sets.

I know you said you read the announcement regarding spoilers/leaks, but you're ignoring it by talking about this. I'm just warning you because you'll get banned if you keep mentioning this stuff.

[atheron70]

I know you said you read the announcement regarding spoilers/leaks, but you're ignoring it by talking about this. I'm just warning you because you'll get banned if you keep mentioning this stuff.

To be fair, the only real questionable part of that post was about Margaery/Tommen. The previews/set rumors have made it almost positive that Sansa is going to be in Winterfell. The only reason she could end up there is by taking fArya's place. The scene with Pod and Brienne appearing close to Baelish and Sansa in their carriage in episode 1 also makes it likely they're stories will be intertwined. Again, it's all speculation but I think most of his info can be extrapolated from all the stuff we already know or theorize.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You lost me here. I found the entirety of Tyrion's travelogue through Pentos to Meereen positively soporific.

You mean that one of the Dragons on the Dance 2.0 soap opera worthy? :stillsick:

[FireAndBlood.]

You mean that one of the Dragons on the Dance 2.0 soap opera worthy? :stillsick:

What? :dunno:

[Lion_Eyes]

I think there will be at least a wee part of plots will be moved around to accommodate certain actors or give people more to do who are not in the books as much as time goes on. The show has been a success with their "main" characters and therefore Peter, Nicolaj, Lena, Emilia and Kit are gonna get the most scenes whether or not that's in line with the books although at this point in the books they are all fairly prominent POV characters anyway and they are all now the main character in their own storyline.

I am not terribly surprised that Bran's storyline was cut in favour of Sansa's (mostly made up plot). The new stars who have been made from the show are no doubt Kit, Emilia, Maisie and Sophie all who will be in very high demand when the show ends and will start getting lucrative offers (heck Kit and Emilia have had Pompeii/Terminator and Sophie is gonna be in X-Men) so they need to keep their young marketable stars in the show and at the forefront. Isaac will probably be at school still and while he is a good actor I can't see him becoming a big star in the next year (ditto everyone else in his storyline) so they can allow him the year off.

Also I would have been disappointed if less prominent but good characters like Brienne, Roose, Theon were sidelined even more to try and clutter the Greyjoys, Arianne (who isn't necessary without Aegon), and the Griffs all into the new Season and just mess up the current status quo. (I hate the Greyjoys in the book minus Asha and Theon but if they were gonna be introduced it should have been Season 2 when Theon was highly focussed or in Season 3 and cut all his torture scenes out.)

[FireAndBlood.]

I am not terribly surprised that Bran's storyline was cut in favour of Sansa's (mostly made up plot).

Bran was cut in favour of Sansa's plot? Please provide some receipts for this claim.