chance show and book ending will be different ?

[ummester]

The expert stroke, I think, would be to have the main characters all achieve the same fate as seen in the show, but use the divergent subplots to give it a different implied meaning that makes it far more dark and sinister - having the same basic events occur but leaving the book audience more wearied and heartbroken. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment.

Well, if it does all end the way I'm suspecting it will, it seems the show is trying to express the duality with more humanised bad guys, aka Walder and Ramsay, whereas I think the books will head the darker route, with heroes having to dehumanise.

I think the show will try and say there is a monster in every man and a man in every monster, where as the books will try to say a man must become a monster to defeat monsters, if that makes sense. So yea, the book will be darker and more intellectual - but that is fitting (considering its a book :D )

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

I know for sure that the endings are going to be different. I hope it's VERY different so that the books are a surprise!

[bent branch]

I think the big picture will be the same. The details will be different. Also, I think we will get an epilogue in the book that won't be in the series.

[Esa1996]

He might do it different but I don't think it's going to differ too much. Most probably any important characters that die in the show are going to die in the books. That's a spoiler for the books, but something Martin could do, would be to change when they die. If said person dies way ahead of where they die in the TV show, no one would be expecting it so it would still be a surprise, or if he kills them way after when they die in the show, people would start to wonder if they survived after all and again their death would be a surprise.

[JonisHenryTudor]

@ JonisHenryTudor

Though I agree that D&D have stated certain things about the ending, they cannot control what GRRM writes. No-one but GRRM can and only his publisher can control what is published, not HBO.

I think there is a definite correlation between GRRMs continued writing of ASoIaF and it becoming a TV show, how could there not be? I have no doubt that he is experiencing a certain amount of frustration in loosing presentation and profit control from his artistic baby - but that's just how the commercial art world rolls.

Yet I think it is wrong to assume that he may not channel some frustration into devising a different ending for the page than what he has sold to the screen. And honestly, I think it will be more interesting that way - the debate re which ending is better will rage on forever and his work will be given a longevity that he could not otherwise achieve.

Very true, but.... We have no idea what legal obligation Martin has in signing over the story. Part of that clause might be Martin having to give the ending that he is writing, last minute rug pulls could potentially be a legal nightmare for him. Again, I can't say for sure, but I am sure HBO wanted the real ending, not an ending. Martin may not have a choice in the matter.

[DJE]

I think how they get to the ending will clearly be different, and maybe even the way it appears on screen, final shot etc. But I do think the overall ending will be the same

[Amber W]

There might be differences in the details and the way they get there, but I think the overall ending will be the same. ASOIAF is littered with hints and foreshadowing, to change all of that up just to spite HBO would be betraying his audience. I imagine the current situation can't be fun for GRRM, and I really sympathise, but in the end selling his work was his own decision.

[JonisHenryTudor]

There might be differences in the details and the way they get there, but I think the overall ending will be the same. ASOIAF is littered with hints and foreshadowing, to change all of that up just to spite HBO would be betraying his audience. I imagine the current situation can't be fun for GRRM, and I really sympathise, but in the end selling his work was his own decision.

I think some are insinuating, though I could be wrong, that Martin gave them a quasi-correct ending instead of the real one. (Not one I buy, see my above posts).

Martin filled his plate with too many side projects, the NFL, etc, and put himself in this position.

[Amber W]

I think some are insinuating, though I could be wrong, that Martin gave them a quasi-correct ending instead of the real one. (Not one I buy, see my above posts).

Martin filled his plate with too many side projects, the NFL, etc, and put himself in this position.

Oh, yes, you're right - I indeed didn't get that. Thanks! :)

I doubt it's true though. Apart from the legal trouble he could be in for pulling such a stunt, I think he realises that at this point the show (rather than the books) is what he'll be remembered for with the majority of his audience. A false/weak ending could ruin his entire reputation.

[ummester]

I think some are insinuating, though I could be wrong, that Martin gave them a quasi-correct ending instead of the real one. (Not one I buy, see my above posts).

It's not that complicated - it is as simple as D&D state. Martin gave them the ending he had in mind, at the time. Martin has since changed his mind on how (some) of the saga should end. GRRM didn't plan for the plan to change, either the plan did, after the fact, or he did - or, more likely, both did. The show changed him and he changed his plan.

Between D&D and Martin, now more then ever, there is a very real chance they could fuck this all up because they never really had, or stuck to, a plan.

If you read the related article http://winteriscoming.net/2015/04/03/george-r-r-martin-is-determined-to-finish-the-winds-of-winter-before-season-6/it seems Martin has recently come up with a new major character twist that was not part of the plan he relayed to D&D when the series was sold. If your cynical on Martin, you could think he deliberately started heading towards that twist after he sold the saga to HBO, as a way to keep his work original, or you can take it on face and just think he changed his mind (and his mind is ultimately his to change, which no-one can do anything about).

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

Ok you guys have convinced me, they will have the same ending.

The humans will win.

Everything else will be different, but that will be the same... so same ending I guess.

Good work everyone.

[JonisHenryTudor]

It's not that complicated - it is as simple as D&D state. Martin gave them the ending he had in mind, at the time. Martin has since changed his mind on how (some) of the saga should end. GRRM didn't plan for the plan to change, either the plan did, after the fact, or he did - or, more likely, both did. The show changed him and he changed his plan.

Between D&D and Martin, now more then ever, there is a very real chance they could fuck this all up because they never really had, or stuck to, a plan.

If you read the related article http://winteriscoming.net/2015/04/03/george-r-r-martin-is-determined-to-finish-the-winds-of-winter-before-season-6/it seems Martin has recently come up with a new major character twist that was not part of the plan he relayed to D&D when the series was sold. If your cynical on Martin, you could think he deliberately started heading towards that twist after he sold the saga to HBO, as a way to keep his work original, or you can take it on face and just think he changed his mind (and his mind is ultimately his to change, which no-one can do anything about).

Yes I read that before. It is interesting. Oh I am sure Martin has the wiggle room to change things. I doubt he would sign a contract that held him word for word. I am more or less rejecting the claim that show story has Jon on the IT with a wildling princess, and then Martin is like "nope that is not it" and the books end with Gendry on the IT with Loras..... That is more or less what I meant.

Of course Martin can chose to change his mind, but again if there are actual legal issues that Martin has to follow, it doesn't matter what he thinks anymore. He sold the rights to HBO. For example, if he told HBO that Jon wins and sits with Sansa and the contract explicitly states that the endings need to be "the same", then Martin can't be like "oh well I decided to put Tyrion on the throne with Mel". Unless he wants to hand over every penny he earned, which I dount he does. Again this is all hypothetical because I have no clue about the parameters of the contract between Martin and HBO.

Some of the saga will change, but the ending itself will still be generally the same. That was part of the agreement.

[ummester]

I remember talking about this in another thread JonisHenry Tudor. I doubt HBO would have drawn up a contract that stipulated Martin had to write a certain thing. When a studio acquires and IP for franchising, all they are generally interested in are exclusive rights to profit from it. They don't generally care how the IP grows, or is delivered, so long as it does grow, is profitable and they reap the rewards.

[BalerionTheCat]

The good thing is, they finally recognize they do not have the ending. And they cannot force GRRM to stick to a plan 5 or 8 years old. I hope this will tone down some of the claims of show only fans, about contract's clauses they never saw.

However, I don't think GRRM can change that much of his story and keep it consistent with the foreshadowings he already provided. But, considering what the show has already changed, I don't think there will be much similarities in the endings. HBO is killing more characters than GRRM, for the shock value. And if they kill Jon, Daenerys or Tyrion in their finale, I wouldn't know it before I read the book.

DW&DB never showed much interest in prophecies and magic and ages past, or clues about R+L=J. And with the release of TWOIAF, GRRM seems to open the door to more fantastic endings. What the show will not do, I believe, as it stays, except for dragons and undead, much out of the fantastic domain.

[ummester]

The good thing is, they finally recognize they do not have the ending. And they cannot force GRRM to stick to a plan 5 or 8 years old. I hope this will tone down some of the claims of show only fans, about contract's clauses they never saw.

HBO has an ending.

GRRM now seems to be working on another, or some changes.

We wont be able to judge, til both are said and done, which is better.

All things are possible. It is possible GRRM gave the better ending to HBO and he is developing inferior changes. Or, his changes could be superior. Or, they could both be about the same.

[BalerionTheCat]

HBO has an ending.

GRRM now seems to be working on another, or some changes.

We wont be able to judge, til both are said and done, which is better.

All things are possible. It is possible GRRM gave the better ending to HBO and he is developing inferior changes. Or, his changes could be superior. Or, they could both be about the same.

I was meaning "the ending that will be in the books". Is there anyone else?

I don't think GRRM will make changes just for distancing himself from the show. The show is already doing that. Believing it better that way. Which I disagree 95% of the time. The 5% left is when they had no choice.

So I'm convinced the books will be better. What I don't know, I'll never know, is if the changes will all improve the story, or will sometimes only increase the differences.

[Wouter]

There might be differences in the details and the way they get there, but I think the overall ending will be the same. ASOIAF is littered with hints and foreshadowing, to change all of that up just to spite HBO would be betraying his audience. I imagine the current situation can't be fun for GRRM, and I really sympathise, but in the end selling his work was his own decision.

I agree. Martin has has an ending in mind for many years, and has been working toward this. A lot of foreshadowing and hints will have been pointing towards this ending, and the books should also be structured toward it. If Martin would change the ending purely because the show got their first, it would be the book readers who would end up getting screwed because the show got the actual ending and the books got an ersatz one that only came to be out of spite, not for artistic reasons.

But I have a hard time believing Martin would change the ending drastically. I don't think the recently mentioned "twist" with a "long-running character" will have much impact on the overall things; it's not like he would suddenly change who the parents of Jon are, for example.

[TheonGreyjoy]

The plot twist must be Sansa, since she overtook the book already.

[Wouter]

The plot twist must be Sansa, since she overtook the book already.

The twist can concern a lot of people. There is insufficient info to narrow it down.

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

I imagine I'll enjoy whatever ending George feels compelled to write. An alternate ending would be more fun to write, I think. The actor who plays Syrio mentioned once his secret desire that George will turn everything on its head with a different ending, that it might inspire fans to all devise their own endings that we could fight over for decades. I think I'm with him, because I don't really want it to end.

The expert stroke, I think, would be to have the main characters all achieve the same fate as seen in the show, but use the divergent subplots to give it a different implied meaning that makes it far more dark and sinister - having the same basic events occur but leaving the book audience more wearied and heartbroken. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment.

Really, the main difference I'd like to see... add one more scene that foreshadows a new upcoming series set in Westeros.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, I do not like that idea. I want this series to end soundly and firmly - not some cope out ending that "leaves it up to interpretation." I love Christopher Nolan, but the Dark Knight Rises and Inception had cope out endings that made me lose a fraction of my enjoyment of the films. Now with a book series I would feel cheated. GRRM does not have to answer everything and I don't want a long, drawn out epilogue which details every major character's life after the series, but the main important things (who lives/dies, political and social structure of Westeros by the end, if the Others are defeated, victorious or become allies of humanity).