Whats this Jaime redemption arc I keep hearing about?

[JonisHenryTudor]

Ned in a similar situation probably would have ended up dead and his family torn apart and his castle burned and....

on the other hand he wouldn't need another boring unrealistic redemption arch.

The point is Ned would NOT be in that position.

[Dofs]

Personally. I say leave her where she stands. I like having characters to despise. Having Cersei reform and become something she had not been from books 1-4 is just not pleasing. At least for me...

I agree with you here. I was just pointing out that there still are characters who aren't really that "grey".

1. He has proven that he has no problem killing children with gravity. Why would that be an empty bluff?

2. He threatened to throw Edmures wife Roslyn into an Oubliette (basically a hole or crow cage too small to move in) and allow her to be eaten alive by rats where he can hear her scream.

3. Of course he has a choice. He is lord commander of the Kings Guard. He can do whatever he wants. He could charge the entire house with murder if he wanted to.

1. Because his entire speech is full of BS. He tells Edmure that he will completely destroy Riverrun, knowing that it belongs to his uncle and aunt who will never allow him to do it. Not that he would seriously think to to turn a river so that the castle of his aunt whom he loves and respect would disappear from the face of the earth. He also tells Edmure that he will send to attack Riverrun riverlords first, Freys second, his own men last. While in his thoughts he was planning to participate himself in the first attack.

2. Ah, Roslin, yes. He was only threatening Edmure so that he tells where did Blackfish go. That's also another point for Jaime not trying to look good in public.

3. Since when the LC of the Kingsguard can do what he wants?

[JonisHenryTudor]

As it was said already, I am not excusing him, this was just a terrible situation for Jaime, that does not make him evil. In your comparison with the governor's son, what is also have to be added is that the first lady is the person the governor's son loves the most and that if his affair with her is known, than they both and their kids will all lose their heads. Just a terrible, terrible situation.

True. But life is about choices. You make good ones and bad ones. You have to own your choices and the repercussions that follow. It is not your fault I chose to get a PhD and go into debt...... Or is it? No it is not. That was/is my choice, and I made it and will live with it.

[Howling Mad]

For more its more about character development than a redemption arc. As we learn more about Jaime's past and his inner thoughts his actions and motivations become more complex and less one dimensional.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I agree with you here. I was just pointing out that there still are characters who aren't really that "grey".

1. Because his entire speech is full of BS. He tells Edmure that he will completely destroy Riverrun, knowing that it belongs to his uncle and aunt who will never allow him to do it. Not that he would seriously think to to turn a river so that the castle of his aunt whom he loves and respect would disappear from the face of the earth. He also tells Edmure that he will send to attack Riverrun riverlords first, Freys second, his own men last. While in his thoughts he was planning to participate himself in the first attack.

2. Ah, Roslin, yes. He was only threatening Edmure so that he tells where did Blackfish go. That's also another point for Jaime not trying to look good in public.

3. Since when the LC of the Kingsguard can do what he wants?

Yes. I certainly agree with this, and if you have seen any of my other posts on the matter you would see that I don't buy the "all grey character" argument. Martin might play it that way, but I don't see it that way.

I personally think washing everything between purely evil and purely good as grey simplifies a really complex spectrum of personalities.

Basically you have Hitler on one side, and Jesus on the other. Everyone else is grey. So guess what you and I are the same as Ted Bundy. We're all grey.......

On that note, I definitely do not think Jaime is evil, just that he made some really poor choices that he needs to answer for. He may answer for them on his own terms or be forced to. Right now it seems that he is doing that. Even if Jaime does not stand before Bran and beg for forgiveness, he can still redeem that action. He doesn't even need to die for redemption. I agree 100% that Jaime is the product of circumstances and upbringing. At the same time he made choices. And because he made choices, that is where I stand on the side of him not necessarily being redeemed.

Sleeping with his sister long before Bran was born was choice he made that put him, his family, and the realm in jeopardy. He made that choice, no other. Ok in conjunction with Cersei, but you get the point.

[Mal Malenkirk]

1. He has proven that he has no problem killing children with gravity. Why would that be an empty bluff?

He was planning to attack in a matter of hours. He was never gonna get the baby in his hands in a matter of hours, Roslin was back at the Twins. Thus he knew he was making a threat he would never be in position to fulfill.

And if that threat is the necessary tip to convince Edmure to surrender, it saved a lot of lives.

I greatly appreciated Jaime's handling of the Riverun siege. I'm sure all the families who saw their lowborn soldier sons not get killed pointlessly agree.

[A horsefaced girl]

True. But life is about choices. You make good ones and bad ones. You have to own your choices and the repercussions that follow. It is not your fault I chose to get a PhD and go into debt...... Or is it? No it is not. That was/is my choice, and I made it and will live with it.

with the same argument some one could say it's not Tommen or Mrycella's fault way should they have to die

[Dofs]

Yes. I certainly agree with this, and if you have seen any of my other posts on the matter you would see that I don't buy the "all grey character" argument. Martin might play it that way, but I don't see it that way.

I personally think washing everything between purely evil and purely good as grey simplifies a really complex spectrum of personalities.

Basically you have Hitler on one side, and Jesus on the other. Everyone else is grey. So guess what you and I are the same as Ted Bundy. We're all grey.......

On that note, I definitely do not think Jaime is evil, just that he made some really poor choices that he needs to answer for. He may answer for them on his own terms or be forced to. Right now it seems that he is doing that. Even if Jaime does not stand before Bran and beg for forgiveness, he can still redeem that action. He doesn't even need to die for redemption. I agree 100% that Jaime is the product of circumstances and upbringing. At the same time he made choices. And because he made choices, that is where I stand on the side of him not necessarily being redeemed.

Sleeping with his sister long before Bran was born was choice he made that put him, his family, and the realm in jeopardy. He made that choice, no other. Ok in conjunction with Cersei, but you get the point.

I don't treat it that way. He didn't make a choice that would make him kill children. He made a choice to be his sister's lover (I think it was told that he even made a vow to love her)- a choice he made a loong time ago when he was still a teen and Cersei was not a queen and married to Robert. And he stuck to this choice for his whole life. Yes, it was an extremely bad mistake, a choice that would hit him in the balls in FFC and make him rue it. But the situation with Bran was an unexpected consequence to that choice, Jaime couldn't have foreseen it. Bran climbing and seeing them was not a logical conclusion that Jaime saw would happen. That's why I don't look at the full picture of the situation but just at that exact moment of Jaime having to choose between Bran and his family. Because that was the only choice he was presented. And I don't think that the choice "oops, we got caught, but it's our fault Cersei, so prepare your head to get chopped off, we will also meet this evening in the afterlife with our children" was a viable option.

[The Wolves]

with the same argument some one could say it's not Tommen or Mrycella's fault way should they have to die

Maybe Jaime and Cersei should care more about their lives than their own selfish needs.

Bran was not the danger to Myrcella and Tommen that is their own parents.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

Depends on how you define redemption. So far, Jaime has been a terrible knight. Yes, he was the greatest fighter in Westeros, but he had nothing of knightly valor. He only became a knight for selfish reasons (glory + Cersei) in the first place and does not care about the responsibilities of his job (protecting the poor/resucing damsels in distress etc.). He only tried to be honorable once, when he killed Aerys, and saw his reutation ruined. After that, he pretended that he gave less then a fuck about his honor, although that is a facade, he loathes that he has lost it for saving King's Landing from a madmen.

When he loses his hand and thus his identity (being the greatest fighter in Westeros with shit for honor) all he had left was shit for honor. And this led him to question for the very first time: "Am I the man that I wanted to become?" and "Am I living up to my potential (as an empathic human being)?" He always wanted to be honorable, yet everyone thinks he has shit for honor, not only because of Aerys, but because its true.Then he slowly realizes that he is a terrible person that has done nothing good in his life and decides that he has to change. He realizes that honor is no thing that others bestow on you with admiration, but that it is an inner moral code that one has to follow. He might also have realized that people don't blame him for Aerys, but also for being an asshole for all his life. He can't keep up the facade because he lost his battle prowess that allowed him to keep it up and now realizes that if he wants to be seen as an hoborable knight, it might be a good idea to actually become one. Consequently, he tries to live up to his vows as a knight and tries to become honorable, (and this is important) even though nobody else might ever notice. Of course, being Jaime, he would love for others to notice, but I think what truly is going on here is that he has really changed as a person and really wants to be honorable.

So I think both "redemption arc" and "identity arc" apply here. On the other hand, he loses his identity and tries to carve out the new and honorable identity that he always longed for, not by pretenting to have honor, but by living by the code. Also, he tries to make up for the mistakes he has made in his life, by treating people less like shit and by no longer partaking in his sister's schemes. Also, this arc can be viewed as a "coming of age arc" because Jaime grows from being a big boy into a man that takes responsibility.

[A horsefaced girl]

Depends on how you define redemption. So far, Jaime has been a terrible knight. Yes, he was the greatest fighter in Westeros, but he had nothing of knightly valor. He only became a knight for selfish reasons (glory + Cersei) in the first place and does not care about the responsibilities of his job (protecting the poor/resucing damsels in distress etc.). He only tried to be honorable once, when he killed Aerys, and saw his reutation ruined. After that, he pretended that he gave less then a fuck about his honor, although that is a facade, he loathes that he has lost it for saving King's Landing from a madmen.

Actually he became a Knight of the Kings Guard for Cersei, and he did care about Knightly codes. He wanted to be like Ser Arthur Dayne who was by many peoples views a very chivalrous Knight, Jaime was very proud that it was him who knighted him. He wanted to help Queen Rhaella but his brothers stopped him.

[BitsOfBrains]

He was planning to attack in a matter of hours. He was never gonna get the baby in his hands in a matter of hours, Roslin was back at the Twins. Thus he knew he was making a threat he would never be in position to fulfill.

And if that threat is the necessary tip to convince Edmure to surrender, it saved a lot of lives.

I greatly appreciated Jaime's handling of the Riverun siege. I'm sure all the families who saw their lowborn soldier sons not get killed pointlessly agree.

I think Jaimes inner thought about attacking a couple hours was just a momentary temper tantrum, like what he wanted to do on an impulsive level but knew wasn't tactically sound.

I don't buy that it was an empty threat because he literally had just finished chewing out the Frey commander for making empty threats, like reaming the guy a knew one.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Actually he became a Knight of the Kings Guard for Cersei, and he did care about Knightly codes. He wanted to be like Ser Arthur Dayne who was by many peoples views a very chivalrous Knight, Jaime was very proud that it was him who knighted him. He wanted to help Queen Rhaella but his brothers stopped him.

Yes, Jaime is the one character Martin used to express digust at marital rape and years later he saved Brienne from rape and then rescued Pia and executed her (latest) rapist. In his younger day we also know Jaime is the one who put a hard stop to Merett Frey's bullying of the squires. These are little touches the author use to tell us young Jaime wasn't a half bad knight.

[DasallmaechtigeJ]

Actually he became a Knight of the Kings Guard for Cersei, and he did care about Knightly codes. He wanted to be like Ser Arthur Dayne who was by many peoples views a very chivalrous Knight, Jaime was very proud that it was him who knighted him. He wanted to help Queen Rhaella but his brothers stopped him.

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Though I would argue that while he admired Arthur Dayne as an extraordinary knight, the main reason he wanted to be like him is because he wanted to be admired as well.

EDIT: This worked fine in the beginning, he not only wanted to be like him, he actually tried, but after the kingslaying he went the wrong way and his honor went down the drain...

[Dofs]

Actually he became a Knight of the Kings Guard for Cersei, and he did care about Knightly codes. He wanted to be like Ser Arthur Dayne who was by many peoples views a very chivalrous Knight, Jaime was very proud that it was him who knighted him. He wanted to help Queen Rhaella but his brothers stopped him.

This. Jaime become cynical about honor only after he was named the "Kingslayer".

[Dofs]

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Though I would argue that while he admired Arthur Dayne as an extraordinary knight, the main reason he wanted to be like him is because he wanted to be admired as well.

That's the reason why anyone would become a knight.

[BitsOfBrains]

That's the reason why anyone would become a knight.

Not Ser Duncan the Tall. Not Brienne of Tarth.

They just want to be forces for order and justice and protectors.

But yeah, by and large its just a way to get chicks and money, like the NBA players of their day.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I think Jaimes inner thought about attacking a couple hours was just a momentary temper tantrum, like what he wanted to do on an impulsive level but knew wasn't tactically sound.

I don't buy that it was an empty threat because he literally had just finished chewing out the Frey commander for making empty threats, like reaming the guy a knew one.

So basically you think he was lying (to the readers and himself) in his inner thoughts about attacking in a few hours but sincere to Edmure, the man he was trying to convince to surrender? I don't agree.

We know from Jaime's POV that because the Blackfish had scoured the country side and made sure there was no food left, Jaime's army was gonna run into a food problem quicker than the rebel, making an assault or a surrender a necessity. Why assume he was lying in his thoughts about attacking?

Beside, empty threats or not, you can't deny that Jaime saved hundred of lives by sucessfully obtaining the surrender of Riverun.

[The Lady Lannister]

GRRM's interview in the Rolling Stone

One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don't have an answer. But when do we forgive people? You see it all around in our society, in constant debates. Should we forgive Michael Vick? I have friends who are dog-lovers who will never forgive Michael Vick. Michael Vick has served years in prison; he's apologized. Has he apologized sufficiently? Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise? Or Roman Polanski, Paula Deen. Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you're a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard? I don't know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then?

In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa's hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because that's an interesting question of redemption. That's more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Is it a case where the end justifies the means? I don't know. That's what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate.

Well, redeemed in whose eyes? She'll never be redeemed in the eyes of some. She's a character who's very protective of her children. You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they're her children? There's certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization. At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting. I don't have any kids myself, but I've talked with other people who have. Remember, Jaime isn't just trying to kill Bran because he's an annoying little kid. Bran has seen something that is basically a death sentence for Jaime, for Cersei, and their children – their three actual children. So I've asked people who do have children, "Well, what would you do in Jaime's situation?" They say, "Well, I'm not a bad guy – I wouldn't kill." Are you sure? Never? If Bran tells King Robert he's going to kill you and your sister-lover, and your three children. . . .

Then many of them hesitate. Probably more people than not would say, "Yeah, I would kill someone else's child to save my own child, even if that other child was innocent." These are the difficult decisions people make, and they're worth examining.

Link to article here http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

[Dofs]

Not Ser Duncan the Tall. Not Brienne of Tarth.

They just want to be forces for order and justice and protectors.

But yeah, by and large its just a way to get chicks and money, like the NBA players of their day.

You can do all of those things without being a knight. Knighthood is a title of honor. Gaining it means that you are recognized to be worthy of bearing it (in theory, anyway ). Brienne is not a knight and she can bring justice and be a protector just fine. But she still wants to be a knight and there is a reason why.

Jaime did not want just to have a title of a knight, he wanted to become the one who represents this title. Like Arthur Dayne did. And that means yes, he wanted to be a force for order and justice.