brranstaark Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 If Jaime hadn't of pushed Bran he may have never realised his powers to be a greenseer. Then again Jaime pushing Bran did more bad than good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knife Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Assessing a redemption arc when the whole "redemption" part has only just begun. Why? I agree, although his redemption arc has been in motion for quite a while now. The moment he turns back to rescue Brienne is the start of it, when he reads the Kingsguard book is the moment he realises his legacy and were we last saw him (going off to "rescue" a Stark) will be the real test. The fact Jaime has abandoned his men to go on this mission will show LSH / BwB that he wants to help. They won't kill him or make him fight Brienne, I think they will "employ" him in some way. This will be the true beginning of his redemption arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Redemption is a difficult term to agree on, because it is not necessarily clear whether a person is talking about Jaime atoning for past acts or being a better person by not doing ill deeds now. Jaime is a better person than be started off being, and the symbolism is clear when he looks at the White book and sees that the rest of his page is blank for him to full which is as close to a literal 'turning over a new leaf' as I have ever seen in the arc of a fictional character. What he hasn't yet begun to do is right the wrongs of his previous ill deeds - he is not an Atoner. When he set off from KL in Feast I believe he was trying to be as dutiful and honourable as the best knights of the KG to their king. Still, Jaime's king was Tommen, a bastard sitting a usurped throne thanks to Jaime's previous treasons. It makes judging Jaime's actions at Riverrun an interesting exercise. A new character with no moral baggage who was trying to end the siege with victory for their king without taking up arms against the Tullys could perhaps be given the benefit of the doubt they were bluffing in the threats to Edmure. Jaime wants to be a character without moral baggage, but others cannot and probably should not forget or forgive his previous sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConfusedCounselor Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Redemption is a difficult term to agree on, because it is not necessarily clear whether a person is talking about Jaime atoning for past acts or being a better person by not doing ill deeds now. Jaime is a better person than be started off being, and the symbolism is clear when he looks at the White book and sees that the rest of his page is blank for him to full which is as close to a literal 'turning over a new leaf' as I have ever seen in the arc of a fictional character. What he hasn't yet begun to do is right the wrongs of his previous ill deeds - he is not an Atoner. When he set off from KL in Feast I believe he was trying to be as dutiful and honourable as the best knights of the KG to their king. Still, Jaime's king was Tommen, a bastard sitting a usurped throne thanks to Jaime's previous treasons. It makes judging Jaime's actions at Riverrun an interesting exercise. A new character with no moral baggage who was trying to end the siege with victory for their king without taking up arms against the Tullys could perhaps be given the benefit of the doubt they were bluffing in the threats to Edmure. Jaime wants to be a character without moral baggage, but others cannot and probably should not forget or forgive his previous sins. :agree: Great post! I agree with every single thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 GRRM's interview in the Rolling Stone Link to article here http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423 I was going to post it but I am grateful that someone else already did. It is always nice to know that at least some people care about what GRRM has to say about the development of the characters that he created and what themes a character's arc is trying to explore. I love GRRM exactly because he forces the reader to explore really difficult situations in his stories. Jaime Lannister is a prominent example. The only thing that I can add is this from another interview: 'Male or female, I believe in painting in shades of grey,' he says. 'All of the characters should be flawed; they should all have good and bad, because that's what I see. Yes, it’s fantasy, but the characters still need to be real.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md-shafty Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I like Jamie's character but don't think he's doing anything but for himself. He's trying to redeem some form of honor and duty, but isn't quite there yet. Personally I think it would be a great end if he died protecting Sansa. Vow fullfilled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knife Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I like Jamie's character but don't think he's doing anything but for himself. He's trying to redeem some form of honor and duty, but isn't quite there yet. Personally I think it would be a great end if he died protecting Sansa. Vow fullfilled That is the only way he can truly redeem himself - by sacrificing himself for the Starks. That maybe Sansa, although I'm kind of hoping Sansa ends up protecting herself. Maybe Jaime will sacrifice himself for Jon. I'm just thinking of how Catelyn was towards Jon and maybe there is something there, what with Jaime about to face LSH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher of the night Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 It is not really about his redemption arc, but it sums up Jamie pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWEE8kzPJuc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 The Jaime of today wouldn't ride down Arya, throw Bran from a window, or even be screwing his sister, the key to the statement is arc, meaning a curved path upwards. It starts really when Brienne pushes the boulder from the cliff onto the boat and the last we have seen of him, he peacefully brings an end to over Riverlands rebellion, not suffering of pride. The Jaime of the past would have stormed the castle after Brynden shat all over him during his brief parley. He has also shown an increasing respect for Brienne, and a greater understanding of what motivates the small folk, Jaime of yesteryear would have madly ridden after Beric, instead of counseling the nobles to pony up and actually protect and feed their people to win their loyalty. I still hope he goes to hell when he dies, because like Mel and Stannis I don't see good acts wiping out the bad, but he is fun to read and has become a pretty nice and decent guy by the end of Feast. Losing his hand was his moment in the pyre, and he was reborn, uncertain and needing to build himself anew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Nah. The idea that Jaime is somehow redeeming himself is ridiculous, and the implication of such an arc is that he is becoming a better person - which is fallacious. He's not becoming a better person. All he's really doing is suffering from post-hand depression, resulting in a lack of vigour and libido. He is not the same person, true. This doesn't make him a better/good person. He's just really, really apathetic and bored. So? You think that, if an asshole gets depressed can this person start to realise some bad things about his/her life and start a change? It's called "reach bottom". This is kinda Jaime's arc. He didn't reach for redemption. It reached him after a terrible event. It's not coincidence that this event involved losing his identity. He has been stripped of what he always identified with, and the reason of his assholery. He has been de-constructed to be rebuild again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I'm late to this thread, but I am a believer in the Jaime redemption arc. I honestly cant see how the reader could miss this considering the dream and subsequent change in Jaime's behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Whoa now, that's quite a Leap. From whence did you get ''all previously-an-arsehole depressed people''? As I point out, he's a different person. That's not to say he's actively becoming good. But he is actively trying to be what he once wanted to be: a knight in the most "romantic" definition :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'm late to this thread also and until Jaime actually risks something of himself to do the right thing, I won't consider his "redemption arc" to be valid.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'm late to this thread also and until Jaime actually risks something of himself to do the right thing, I won't consider his "redemption arc" to be valid.;) He already did that ;) He risked his life to save Brienne from a bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EtherealWraith Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Of course there's a shift in perception of Jaime from negative to positive, it's evidenced by the author's text itself. GRRMs portrays Jaime as a misunderstood individual- someone who was almost unanimously hated in Westeros in the beginning - and then we realize he's hated for something he did for morally good reasons. In fact, it's pretty much a setup. GRRM first puts up Jaime to be hated by the readers as this pampered, evil golden boy - and then pulls the rug out by showing that he's just a simple man trying to do what's right and what's best for his family and himself, just like everyone else including the Starks. Almost by definition, Jaime is on track to redeem himself, and to some readers, he's already redeemed himself. There's not much reason to hate on Jaime anyways. He's a good man who's served his family and his interests well, and he even honorably sacrifices his reputation to do a morally great thing in killing Aerys before he could burn Kings Landing. Perhaps the most ethically ambiguous thing he does is push Bran off the building, but he didn't have much choice. Jaime prioritizes his family over outsiders, and needs to eliminate Bran to protect his family. Also, it's not as if Jaime's flaunting his secret affair with Cersei. He takes almost every precaution in hiding the affair, going up a one-way abandoned tower, and unfortunately, Bran incredibly scales this building and finds them. Unfortunate situation all around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I'm late to this thread also and until Jaime actually risks something of himself to do the right thing, I won't consider his "redemption arc" to be valid.;) He started out by risking his life to save Brienne. He is risking his life running off with her to save Sansa Stark from asandor Clegane when he couldnt fight his way out of a broom closet. I will say that I dont consider him "redeemed", just heading in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 He already did that ;) He risked his life to save Brienne from a bear.Fair enough, but he'll have to do better than that in my mind.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Fair enough, but he'll have to do better than that in my mind.;) I agree. He's not redeemed because of that, but it was an act we could not have expected from book 1 Jaime. I think it was just the start of a long and gradual change that Jaime is undergoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I agree. He's not redeemed because of that, but it was an act we could not have expected from book 1 Jaime. I think it was just the start of a long and gradual change that Jaime is undergoing. You may be right. I like reading Jaime's chapters. I find his later chapters humorous but not exactly honorable.;) Edit: His thinking reminds me of teenage boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSmith84 Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Question: do people think Jaime would have maimed/killed Arya simply because Cersei wanted it? The end of Jaime's confession could be ambiguous, but I always come away from that feeling as thought the only reason he didn't do it is because he didn't find her. That would probably be his most evil act. Killing Bran (or attempting to at least) could be understood, even if it is reprehensible. But killing Arya just to please his sister... That would be the act of a monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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