Whats this Jaime redemption arc I keep hearing about?

[Lord Lannister]

I think it's possible to aknowledge that Jaime's arc is one of redemption and still believe that he is beyond redemption. The important thing is not whether he succeeds or not, but the process of self-examination and the journey. Jaime did some awful things that should not be forgiven, and I don't blame readers who hold this opinion. However, the redemption arc of Jaime is a separate thing that doesn't depend on how someone personally feels about him. It's a journey Jaime is taking and it's happening. That's pretty objective. How you feel about it is subjective.

Well said. I think most of Jaime's problems stem from his relationship with Cersei. Not that it absolves him of responsibility of his actions, but he strikes me as a man with a drug problem that's finally coming to terms with the fact that she's bad for him.

[NorthGirl]

To OP, I think that if it does start, it would be in WOW but I agree that it hasn't started yet. The problem with born again Jaime is that his intentions are completely self serving, even if they have good consequences for others. He doesn't think "I have to repent before those I hurt", he thinks "I want to become a better knight and have more than Kingslayer as my legacy". He never thinks about those he hurt and how he can atone, it's all about feeling better about himself at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong, if he hadn't attempted to murder a child and gladly would've murdered said child's sister if given the chance, I would be satisfied with that. The fact that it doesn't haunt him or make him feel bad shows that the change is, he finally saw himself in the mirror and realised the sum of his life's work was killing Aerys and fucking Cersei, who it turns out is a horrible human being to give your loyalty to. Not that he needs to correct his mistakes. Bottom line is: his regret is that he hasn't done anything noteworthy as a knight, not that he has been a shitty person and needs to be a better one. Even with his act of killing Aerys justified, everything he did after that could've been about making sure he did better, instead he self pitied and made every effort to be as disliked as possible.

He's really hot and he hasn't pushed a kid from a window in a long time so he's a saint now.
oh yeh, and he was always loyal to his lover and never cheated on her

:lol:

Jaime saved Brienne from a bear. When he said "the things I do for love", it was with loathing- he loathed what he did to Bran even as he did it. So far this thread has omitted these relevant facts.

1) We don't know what went through his head while he did that but there are no signs that he regretted it.

2) More than a year later, in his own thoughts, he pushes the blame on Bran for spying on them. That really doesn't communicate regret or self loathing

I don't see Jaime redemption arc for a different reason. There was no change in charcter after chopping the hand. He was always gullible hero. But we only see it when we get his POV.

Because before that he was seen from the Stark's POV.

He might be little less harsh, but the reason for that is not character change, but physical (and still he gives some bitchslaps even without a hand).

And I don't understand, why he is blamed for attempt to kill Bran. I believe, even Cait understood that he was doing right thing.

Please tell me this is a joke? Killing a child because you couldn't keep it in your pants while in the "enemy" territory and your relationship is high treason is not the "right thing". Remember, he says that he could tell Cersei wanted him to kill Bran so he did. That was his reasoning, excuse me but nothing in the text suggests self loathing at the moment of the action, nor later.

He was never a gullible hero, he never had noble intentions of helping people, he had dreams of finding glory with his sword. If he was that gullible and so controlled by Cersei that he didn't know up from down and right from wrong, why did he love Tyrion when both Cersei and his father despise Tyrion and encourage that sentiment? He was able to discern when something was not right. He just followed through on things that were wrong because the promise of Cersei's hoohah was all he wanted.

I'm sorry but the kind of person who justifies every action stemming from them wanting to fuck someone is not a good person. Jaime shouldn't need a nice girlfriend to want to be a good person and similarly, he shouldn't compromise his morals about everything else just because he was fucking Cersei. Basically that's saying, everything he does wrong or right has nothing to do with his principles and everything to do with who he wants to screw. That's not only not being a good person, that's not being a grown man.

[BitsOfBrains]

To be fair to the turncloak, the Starks were his captors, not his foster family, no matter how well they treated him.

Yeah I think part of my Theon hate comes from the show where Theon, A) swore an oath of fealty and brotherhood to Robb and B) wrote out a ravengram to Robb warning of an Ironborn invasion, had an opportunity to send it, then decided instead to be a D bag.

Even just from the book though we know the Starks treated him well when they could have just kept him chained to a wall in a dungeon or gave him to the Boltons to foster one piece at a time.

[BitsOfBrains]

To OP, I think that if it does start, it would be in WOW but I agree that it hasn't started yet.

Yeah thats a good point. Its sometimes hard to remember we are not done with the series with the huge time between books.

Its totally possible Jaime might slay Dany and her monsters and her hordes of foreign slaves, eunichs, and sellswords. and come out in the end the savior of the realm.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Personally, I am not terribly fond of Martin's writing style here. One of my critiques of aSoIaF is Martin's unwillingness to leave certain characters alone.

I think he has fallen into his own trap. Character A starts off lovable, ok must make him heinous. Character B starts of heinous, ok must make him bad. This, IMO, is a nuisance. I get his point, and I think it can be made without transforming every character.

In real life, not every individual transforms, some people are just heinous. Period. While others give all they can for others. Period.

Jaime seems to have transformed, but I am not sure he is in line for redemption.....

That, IMO, would have to be him giving his life for Bran or another Stark.

[Third Tail of the Dragon]

I think the anti-Jaime redemption people are overlooking that by AFFC and ADWD Jaime is the only one trying to negotiate peace on reasonable terms, to the extent of wanting to protect the girl who he thinks murdered his son, and worrying about how the smallfolk in the riverlands are going to be fed.

I get why people in Westeros seem to believe that ensuring one person gets the crown or castle or revenge they deserve in more important than the lives of thousands of random peasant who have to die for them to get it, but there's no reason readers in the forum have to.

[chrisdaw]

It is Jaime's lot to carry alone the burden of the sins that must be committed to save the realm. To save a city he had to kill a king he swore to protect, to save the realm he'll have to do worse. His arc isn't one of bad to good, it's one of selfishness to servitude, indifference to ultimate responsibility. He is not becoming Ned, he is becoming Tywin.

[eyenon15]

It is Jaime's lot to carry alone the burden of the sins that must be committed to save the realm. To save a city he had to kill a king he swore to protect, to save the realm he'll have to do worse. His arc isn't one of bad to good, it's one of selfishness to servitude, indifference to ultimate responsibility. He is not becoming Ned, he is becoming Tywin.

totally agree hEre, it's more about him growing up and becoming responsible than redemption.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think the anti-Jaime redemption people are overlooking that by AFFC and ADWD Jaime is the only one trying to negotiate peace on reasonable terms, to the extent of wanting to protect the girl who he thinks murdered his son, and worrying about how the smallfolk in the riverlands are going to be fed.

I get why people in Westeros seem to believe that ensuring one person gets the crown or castle or revenge they deserve in more important than the lives of thousands of random peasant who have to die for them to get it, but there's no reason readers in the forum have to.

Or maybe people don't care? This story is about the nobility, thus our favorite characters are members of the nobility. Feeding a "few beggars" might not be satisfying after chucking Bran out of a window.

For example. If Aron Hernandez (American football player) charged (convicted ?) of murder suddenly gave money and food to a homeless shelter, would people forget the murder charge? Doubtful. People would not see that as redemption. Just look at how many people still are fumed over Ray Lewis who was found innocent, and his crime was being privy to the murder, not actually murdering someone. Yet people still hate Ray and want him removed from the world.

My point is, for many people, protecting the poor is not enough for redemption.

[A horsefaced girl]

Here is a little redemption for Jaime, even Ned wonders (this is about killing children to protect your own)

Ned thought, If it came to that,the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

[Dofs]

Bottom line is: his regret is that he hasn't done anything noteworthy as a knight, not that he has been a shitty person and needs to be a better one.

This is not true. He absolutely believes that he was a very shitty person, and yes, he regrets being one. This quote really tells a lot:

That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

And just to see clearly what Jaime actually means by this quote, here is how he describes the Smiling Knight:

The Mountain of my boyhood. Half as big but twice as mad.

That's how he thinks and speaks about being the LC of the Kingsuard:

Worn by the bony arse of Barristan the Bold and Ser Gerold Hightower before him, by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redwyne, and the Demon of Darry, by Ser Duncan the Tall and the Pale Griffin Alyn Connington. How could the Kingslayer belong in such exalted company?

"I agree. I am as unfit to guard the king as you are. So draw that sword you're fondling, and we shall see how your two hands fare against my one. At the end one of us will be dead, and the Kingsguard will be improved."

And another quote where he thinks about about himself not really that favorably:

"He was not wrong," Ser Bonifer allowed, "but some sins are blacker than others, and fouler in the nostrils of the Seven."

And you have no more nose than my little brother, or my own sins would have you choking on that pear.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Just to let you know, he hanged and executed rapist murderers at Harrenhal and felt good about serving justice. You don't have to love him and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't give me this "hung some broken men" bullcrap. You can stick that where the sun don't shine.

[Dofs]

I don't really understand what exactly is Jaime doing wrong that people still, in FFC and DWD, believe that he is a jerk and an awful human being. What Jaime is supposed to do now - betray his own family and join the Starks or what?

[JonisHenryTudor]

I don't really understand what exactly is Jaime doing wrong that people still, in FFC and DWD, believe that he is a jerk and an awful human being. What Jaime is supposed to do now - betray his own family and join the Starks or what?

Yep!

The point you are missing is that he chucked Bran out of a window. For many people, that has yet to be redeemed. That is like someone killing your child, and then spending the next decade chasing down gang bangers and drug smugglers. It doesn't erase in your mind what he/she did.

I don't exactly hate Jaime mind you, but I think he needs to die for the Starks or sacrifice for them to be truly redeemed.

That is also the same opinion I have of Theon. If Theon is to be redeemed, his last action needs to be for the Starks; otherwise....

[A horsefaced girl]

Personally, I am not terribly fond of Martin's writing style here. One of my critiques of aSoIaF is Martin's unwillingness to leave certain characters alone.

I think he has fallen into his own trap. Character A starts off lovable, ok must make him heinous. Character B starts of heinous, ok must make him bad. This, IMO, is a nuisance. I get his point, and I think it can be made without transforming every character.

In real life, not every individual transforms, some people are just heinous. Period. While others give all they can for others. Period.

Jaime seems to have transformed, but I am not sure he is in line for redemption.....

That, IMO, would have to be him giving his life for Bran or another Stark.

Personally I think the redemption stories are what the best stories are made of. Think of Star Wars without Vader?

[JonisHenryTudor]

Personally I think the redemption stories are what the best stories are made of. Think of Star Wars without Vader?

That is fine. And what I argued is that is fine for some characters, but not every character. It seems that Martin wants all characters to end up in a middle ground, and that I have an issue with. I would be fine with Jaime ending his story as the person he hoped to be, but I have a problem with every character changing just so Martin's version of realism can be met (which I call BS on).

[Minsc]

Even just from the book though we know the Starks treated him well when they could have just kept him chained to a wall in a dungeon or gave him to the Boltons to foster one piece at a time.

Not really, he was a highborn hostage thus his treatment was the standard polite fiction treatment that highborn hostages are traditionally entitled to unless held by monsters like Joffrey or Ramsay.

[BitsOfBrains]

Not really, he was a highborn hostage thus his treatment was the standard polite fiction treatment that highborn hostages are traditionally entitled to unless held by monsters like Joffrey or Ramsay.

Jaime himself told Edmure that the Lanisters have no qualms about throwing their highborn hostages/wards into oublietes (I can't spell french words) and have done it plenty of times. He also said he would do it to his wife.

This shows that hostages/wards are completely at the mercy of their captors. I'm sure I could find some other example of hostages being treated poorly. Sansa in KL I guess would be one. Not exactly chained in a dungeon but beaten and stripped naked and no one prostested but the hound even when all the court was there.

[A horsefaced girl]

That is fine. And what I argued is that is fine for some characters, but not every character. It seems that Martin wants all characters to end up in a middle ground, and that I have an issue with. I would be fine with Jaime ending his story as the person he hoped to be, but I have a problem with every character changing just so Martin's version of realism can be met (which I call BS on).

I feel the opposite, I would call BS if characters didn't change.

[Dofs]

Yep!

The point you are missing is that he chucked Bran out of a window. For many people, that has yet to be redeemed. That is like someone killing your child, and then spending the next decade chasing down gang bangers and drug smugglers. It doesn't erase in your mind what he/she did.

I don't exactly hate Jaime mind you, but I think he needs to die for the Starks or sacrifice for them to be truly redeemed.

That is also the same opinion I have of Theon. If Theon is to be redeemed, his last action needs to be for the Starks; otherwise....

Well, I don't agree with that kind of thinking. A family is a family and his does not consist just from Cerseis. By betraying the Lannisters he will betray his aunt Genna, his cousin Davem his childhood friends from Westerlands, his own son Tommen, and his own daughter. This is just wrong. Not to mention that he already is helping the Starks, he tries to find Sansa and take her to safety, he basically saves the lives Blackfish, Edmure and the men of Riverrun, who would have all died if not for him, he treats Tytos Blackwood very well despite the fact that he was the last riverlord still loyal to Starks and Tullys. He probably helped the Starks and their people more than he could have if he turned his cloak for them.

And the reason why he shoved Bran from the window should be important. He didn't do it just because he felt like it or because he wanted to make a name out of himself (like Theon was doing in CoK). He did it to save his family.