R+L=J v.140

[LmL]

Really, this is the R+L=J thread, not the Azor Ahai or the so-and-so emperor thread.

If Jon is reprising the role or legacy of Azor Ahai in some way, which he appears to be, then it's absolutely relevant to R+L=J.

Maybe I read the passage wrong, but I thought Jon was holding Longclaw which was burning red.

Yes, it was Longlcaw in the dream, but it burned with red fire - that's Azor Ahai's sword. He's dreaming that he is Azor Ahai, and that his swrod is the red fire sword of Azor. I don't think Longclaw is Lightbringer, but that is what he is dreaming. is this a dream from Bloodraven? Is it prophetic? It seems pretty important, and worthy of discussion.

I will have to see if I can find anything in that dream that refers to the lord of Winterfell, as well.

Right here:

“Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. “I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

[sj4iy]

That's fair. I was speaking in general terms, and maybe venting a bit of frustration at the seemingly endless regurgitation of the same two or three arguments.

TBH, it's part of the reason I disappeared for a while XD It gets tiring rehashing the same arguments over and over again, especially when there's no new information to present on either side.

[LmL]

TBH, it's part of the reason I disappeared for a while XD It gets tiring rehashing the same arguments over and over again, especially when there's no new information to present on either side.

I am presenting new information, but you keep saying it is irrelevant or unnecessary. You don't see the irony here?

[sj4iy]

I am presenting new information, but you keep saying it is irrelevant or unnecessary. You don't see the irony here?

Oh, really? This is new information regarding R+L=J? Do tell. How does it prove or disprove Jon's parentage? Or Jon's legitimacy or lack of? Because that's the point of this thread.

In any case, I'm tired of the uncalled-for animosity. Seriously, stop...you've taken something I said WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and I have no wish to turn this into a public argument. So please...move on.

[LmL]

Oh, really? This is new information regarding R+L=J? Do tell. How does it prove or disprove Jon's parentage? Or Jon's legitimacy or lack of? Because that's the point of this thread.

In any case, I'm tired of the uncalled-for animosity. Seriously, stop...you've taken something I said WAY TOO SERIOUSLY and I have no wish to turn this into a public argument. So please...move on.

This is precisely what I mean by "shutting down debate." Please stop. You are not the gatekeeper of RLJ. J Stargaryen, who is a moderator, {EDIT: he is not, I thought he was} agrees that this Bloodstone / Azor stuff is indeed relevant to R+L=J. You yourself said you left for a while because you're tired of the same old arguments.. so why not be open to this line of inquiry?

Everything I am saying on this thread has ramifications for R+L=J. There is no personal animosity. I simply want to be ale to discuss the works of the author as they pertain to RLJ, as I have said repeatedly. If you willsimply stop trying to shut down my comments, as you have done here, then I will have nothing more to say to you in the way or arguments, objections, etc. I think we would both rather discuss the book material than argue - so let's do that. :)

[Alia of the knife]

The role of Azor Ahai / the BSE is that of the sun, wielded of the fiery comet sword. The role of Nissa Nissa / the Amethysts Empress is that of moon, "woman wife of sun" as the Dothraki say. The comet striking moon image is a metaphor for two things - murder and betrayal (stabbing your wife with a sword) - and impregnation (as Schmendricks legendary essay demonstrates conclusively). The Moon is both murdered and impreganted by the comet, seen as being wielded by the sun. That's why we keep seeing our solar kings like Aegon and Rhaegar take two wives. The Azor Ahai / Nissa Nissa myth is the central myth of all of Planetos, and it's patterns seem replay themselves over and over.

What is George trying to say by doing this? I have ideas, but that's open to interpretation. The point is firstly to establish that these patterns are occurring and try to figure out what they mean and what implications they will have. Did the astronomical events cause the pattern which was then replayed on the ground by pele, or did the people create the pattern and the astronomy followed? I am not sure, it's open to interpretation.

As for Dany and Jon. Dany is clearly, clearly associated with the moon. Hopefully I don't have to review that for everyone, it's pretty heavy handed. She's the mother of dragons, just as the moon have birth to dragon meteors as the Qarthine legend says. She's the bride of fire because the moon married the sun. She's Stormborn because the destruction of the moon which was the birth of dragons gave rise to the biggest storm in the history of the world. Of course these monickers all have first level interpretations - Stormborn because a storm raged on Dragonstone when she was born, etc. But they also have astronomical meanings, as I have suggested. We've already seen Dany "die," by fire no less, right at the moment her three dragons woke from stone. That's exactly what happened celestially - the Nissa Nissa moon was incinerated, and dragons woke from stone. The text seems to imply three large moon fragment meteors striking the planet (mirroring the three dragons birthed by Dany), with one of those three breaking up in the atmosphere to create the thousand thousand dragon meteor shower.

Jon, with his Azor Ahai and usurper imagery, seems to be playing the role of the sun king. But he's not pure fire, he's fire and ice. He's the sun king, but reborn in an icy sheath (that may part of the implication of his ice armor). My guess is that this will make a difference; Jon's icy side will balance his fire side, whereas Azor Ahai was an uncontrolled inferno of dark fire and shadow magic, a menace to the world.

In Martin's original draft, his intention was that there would be a relationship between Arya and Jon, hence the actual reason for him not being Aryas brother but cousin.

I speculate that is still possible, but that he changed the process by which it would happen, perhaps to prolong the mystery, so what symbolism woul Arya represent?

[J. Stargaryen]

Really, this is the R+L=J thread, not the Azor Ahai or the so-and-so emperor thread.

Maybe I read the passage wrong, but I thought Jon was holding Longclaw which was burning red. I will have to see if I can find anything in that dream that refers to the lord of Winterfell, as well.

And since Jon might well be Azor Ahai reborn -- and one might argue that it's specifically because he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna -- it's not really off topic. At least, I don't think so. And even if you think it is somewhat OT, what's the big deal? It's not as if LmL is sidetracking the discussion in a destructive or trollish way. The guy has some interesting ideas, let him talk.

In some ways, the RLJ threads are the default Jon Snow threads. Considering that this has long been a haven of people knowledgeable on the subject of RLJ and its ramifications, this is a pretty good place to discuss any ideas one might have about that character. I can't think of a better place to discuss Jon Snow related ideas. Then again, maybe I'm mistaken.

I didn't stifle shit- stop turning this into a "SJ is such a meanie!" conversation. I said I didn't agree with your damn theory and gave my reasoning for it- jesus, you act like this is the first time someone has ever disagreed with you. I said that I didn't see the content from the Worldbook as important as you and the FIRST thing you did was respond with "BOO. HISS. I cannot fathom where people get this idea." Really? You can't 'fathom' where people might get the idea that a history book with very little information concerning the events of ASOIAF might not be necessary to the story itself?

So really, get off it already. Seriously. I didn't keep you from stating your theory. I just disagreed with it. I even attempted to understand more where you were coming from in my last post, and here you are again, directing baffling anger at me for a rather innocuous post.

Looking back at your original post, you were a bit dismissive, albeit politely so. Still, considering that LmL's astronomy posts make extensive use of the World book, your post probably reads like a conversation killer.

Concerning who wrote what with the World book, I don't know who wrote more of the words that made it into the book, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of new stuff comes from GRRM himself. Elio and Linda surely made some original contributions, but my understanding was that they did a lot of cataloging of information, and condensing of drafts GRRM sent to them.

---

To give an example of the WB 'echoing' the five main books of the series so far, I'd point to the story and name of the Bloodstone Emperor. He's clearly described as a usurper, which is obvious enough. What's neat is that bloodstone is usually green with red spots. - Link. I don't know about the rest of you, but that reminds me of Rhaegar's rubies spilling into the Green Fork of the Trident, at the hands of the Usurper, Robert Baratheon. Kind of neat that GRRM chose to covertly connect Rhaegar's rubies to the Long Night.

[LmL]

In Martin's original draft, his intention was that there would be a relationship between Arya and Jon, hence the actual reason for him not being Aryas brother but cousin.

I speculate that is still possible, but that he changed the process by which it would happen, perhaps to prolong the mystery, so what symbolism woul Arya represent?

Arya and Sansa both seem to have very heavy moon imagery, as does Bran. Arya and Sansa seem to have parallel arcs in many ways, as has been explored on the Pawn to Player thread, and I would include Bran in that mix as well. To be honest I am going to de a full Arya and Sansa re-read to hone in on the detail, but I've found some really heavy lightbringer for gin metaphors in a couple of Sansa chapters (check out the one where her an Petyr reach the fingers - Petyr plays the role of sun and Sansa plays the role of fire moon, while Lysa is the Ice moon. It's really heavy). I just listened to the Arya chapter where she gets lost in the red keep, finds the dragon skulls, and overhears Varys and Illyrio talking. She's playing the role of a moon, entering the mouth of the dragon is like colliding with the comet, and after that there is a bunch of lightbringer imagery - smoke from a torch coiling like a snake, giant shadow people, a few other things

The point being that if he did want to do an Arya - Jon thing, her moon imagery would seem to make that possible. But I need to do that Arya and Sansa re-read to really be sure, I haven't studied their text as much as Jon and Dany's.

Just to clarify: the celestial scenario is one sun, two moons, and the earth. Originally, the red comet split, and one half came around the sun and hit the fire moon, causing the Long Night. The other half went on its merry way and has returned in our story, where it is noticed and remarked upon many times. The sun is perceived as wielding the comet like a sword (or a penis, depending on the metaphor). That's a union of fire - a fiery comet and a fire moon. The result was fire dragons. You could also say the comet is actually ice and fire, since comets are really a ball of frozen rock, but the point is the bride was fire that time. The second time, the comet may be coming back to hit / impregnate the ice moon.

Look at Rhaegar as the sun, Elia is the fire bride, and Lyanna the ice bride. The fire bride is impregnated first, the ice bride second. Jon snow is the result of the union of fire (sun) and ice (ice moon). Every time this happens, both the mother and father are "reborn" in the offspring of the union. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, but reborn with an icy half. I called this "reborn in a sheath of ice." So technically speaking, Jon represents the union of the sun /comet and the ice moon, following my framework. I expect the red comet will hit the ice moon at the climax of the story, and this will have a direct magical effect on Jon. (I will leap out of my chair if this happens :)) The Qarthine myth says the other moon will kiss the sun one day and crack and dragons will return. Except that if the ice moon births dragons, what kind of dragons will they be? Ice dragons. I am not sure if that means LITERAL Ice dragons, or a metaphor for resurrected Jon as the Ice Dragon, or both, but that's how I see it.

The important part of R=L=J, in my opinion, is Jon's status as the union of fire and ice, not his claim to the throne. Just my take, but there it is.

[LmL]

double :bang:

[sj4iy]

No, I'm not doing this.

This is a ridiculous debate that has turned personal and I find no point in continuing it.

I have no problem with people offering up new information...by that measure, no one should have any problem with people disagreeing with their theories.

My point stands...if Martin wants to draw a strong parallel between Jon, Dany and these two historical figures, then he'll put it in the main series. That's all I was ever saying. It wasn't dismissive, it was just how I see it. God knows I never wanted to get into a friggen' debate on the merits of the world book or have people accusing me of "shutting them down" simply because I disagreed with them.

So yeah. Done.

[LmL]

^ check out the comment just up from yours, I posted it while you were typing.

Disagreeing with my comments is one thing - suggesting that they are not relevant to RLJ is shutting them down. You're saying they are inappropriate for this thread. That is what I am calling "stifling conversation." By calling my comments off topic, you are acting as the gatekeeper of the thread. I have attempted to show to the best of my ability how they relate to RLJ in the above post. I'd also refer you to Stargaryen's comments just up from my post.

[RumHam]

Concerning who wrote what with the World book, I don't know who wrote more of the words that made it into the book, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of new stuff comes from GRRM himself. Elio and Linda surely made some original contributions, but my understanding was that they did a lot of cataloging of information, and condensing of drafts GRRM sent to them.

This is probably the best explanation, From one of Ran and Linda's Reddit AMAs

1. How much did GRRM entrust you to indepentetly develop the history in A World of Ice and Fire? Do you see yourselves having future authority to expand the ASOIAF universe when GRRM retires from writing for it?

The original plan, way back in 2006, was that we would largely work independently from George while he worked on the next novel. After some preliminary discussion and our presenting just an outline sketching out the structure -- which got his blessing -- we got to work. The first step was to collect all the information we had from the novels and things George had informed fans of in various emails, readings, and so on. Fortunately, we had the

Concordance

and

So Spake Martin collection

to help with that. We filled out the outline with all the relevant information for each section, and then proceeded to do our best to write the text using the information we had. For a long time, George was not really involved (because, again, he was busy with ADwD). However, the idea would be that once he was done with that, he'd go over our text and help fill in any gaps or point out any issues where the information we had was misleading or incorrect.

And that sort of did happen. George did go over it, sending back notes, filling gaps... but he also saw that there were areas of the history or setting that he had revealed extremely little about, leaving our effort quite spare. Rather than send us a handful of notes that we would flesh out (as we had imagined he would do), he just set to and started writing... and writing ... and writing. He wrote

a lot

of text, and with amazing rapidity. Every section was enriched. It's part of the reason a book originally contracted for 50,000 words ended up at 180,000.

As to the authority to create canonical history and setting details, no, not at all. It's George's world, we're just happy we have had the opportunity to help him share his vision of it in this way.

So all the new info comes from Martin. Elio and Linda's task was to condense it down and in some cases summarize it to fit in the book. They came up with a few names and I'm sure suggested a few things, but it's not as if they came up with the Bloodstone Emperor or any of the other fake history.

[LmL]

This is probably the best explanation, From one of Ran and Linda's Reddit AMAs

So all the new info comes from Martin. Elio and Linda's task was to condense it down and in some cases summarize it to fit in the book. They came up with a few names and I'm sure suggested a few things, but it's not as if they came up with the Bloodstone Emperor or any of the other fake history.

Thank you Ser, for setting that straight.

[J. Stargaryen]

This is probably the best explanation, From one of Ran and Linda's Reddit AMAs

So all the new info comes from Martin. Elio and Linda's task was to condense it down and in some cases summarize it to fit in the book. They came up with a few names and I'm sure suggested a few things, but it's not as if they came up with the Bloodstone Emperor or any of the other fake history.

I read the bold as answering the second question: Do you see yourselves having future authority to expand the ASOIAF universe when GRRM retires from writing for it?

That said, I do agree that it's extremely unlikely that they wrote any of the important new stuff. Not to take anything away from their contribution but, as they say in their AMA, it's George's world.

[LmL]

I read the bold as answering the second question: Do you see yourselves having future authority to expand the ASOIAF universe when GRRM retires from writing for it?

That said, I do agree that it's extremely unlikely that they wrote any of the important new stuff. Not to take anything away from their contribution but, as they say in their AMA, it's George's world.

Right, and so having established that, I feel like curious minds should be POURING over the new material in ASOIAF looking for the trademark George R.R. Martin hidden metaphors. I'm assuming all the people following this kind of thread are well familiar with the idea that George hides metaphors for important things and people in everything from roses and flowers to trees to food to stars and comets to spider crabs, let's not forget structures, cities, temples, place names, house words and sigils... etc etc. You might find information about the Others in a Sansa chapter, you might find information about Azor Ahai in a Samwell chapter or a Breinne chapter. He's just so very clever... I'd hate to think anyone was underestimating him. There is just so much of TWOAIF material I have studied a little bit and found double meanings. I am telling you - everyone - that thing is PACKED with easter eggs. And all of it informs us about things in the main story. I promise! :laugh: I wouldn't lie about such a thing. All I am saying is... its relevant, and worth scrutiny. And some it it pertains directly to Jon and his identity as the union of ice and fire, which is the heart of R+L=J.

[RumHam]

I read the bold as answering the second question: Do you see yourselves having future authority to expand the ASOIAF universe when GRRM retires from writing for it?

That said, I do agree that it's extremely unlikely that they wrote any of the important new stuff. Not to take anything away from their contribution but, as they say in their AMA, it's George's world.

I would say that their statement that they don't have authority to create canonical history and setting details applies to when they were writing the book and in the future. Even if they just mean once Martin moves on, the quote still shows that all the info in the book came from Martin. Initially they were only working from pre-established information from the books and SSMs. Note that they did not fill in the sparse sections with information they invented. They wrote the text "with the information they had" and then Martin gave them a crapload more information. The wording is mostly Elio and Linda, but the info all comes from Martin.

[LmL]

This makes sense, because E&L are famous for compiling all the random world building throughout the story into a database. It makes sense to rely on them to do the same ting for TWOAIF - its a lot of grunt work, basically, and for George to spend his time compiling all that would be a waste, I'm sure we all agree. So they put that all together, and we are talking pretty much mostly Westerosi history here, he looked it over, added to it, and then brainstormed a bunch of shit about the rest of the world. Which is all really interesting and packed with easter eggs and puzzles. I really think George considers himself a puzzle master as much as a writer, and he really enjoys the fact that his readers work so hard and study his shit to figure them out. There's an SSM somewhere about his editor saying that he has to tell George to make his hints more obvious, because me makes them too subtle at times. I'm thinking of this astronomy theory, which was mostly set out in book one and completely set out by book two, and yet I was literally the first person to stumble across it, simply because I read a lot of Graham Hancock and mythology and something just clicked into place. But it's been there the whole time, staring everyone in the face. Anyone know that SSM I am talking about?

[sj4iy]

The wording is mostly Elio and Linda, but the info all comes from Martin.

That was what I meant all along.

[LmL]

To be clear, the wording is mostly Elio and Linda on the sections they compiled - George wrote the eastern stuff entirely.

[BearQueen87]

I feel like we need new hashtags. #TeamAllTheBooks #TeamMainSeriesButOtherStuffIsFineButItsNotLikeYouHaveToReadIt

..too long?

I'm not even convinced that Jon is Azor Ahai Reborn (PTWP, abso-freaking-lutley) because I do think you need to take into consideration the culture and religion that worships/is looking for AAR and the fact is despite having a Red Priestess right there. Mel hasn't looked at Jon and left the S.S. Stannis Baratheon. Now maybe she will in book 6 and maybe she'll decide that Jon is AAR and not Stannis. But will the other Reds look at Jon when they land in Westeros (if they even come) and go "ah ha! That boy! The one without a dragon and the one who hasn't survived a funeral pyre! That's him! Sorry Mother of Dragons and surviver of funeral pyers." I actually rather doubt that the characters in universe will realize that Jon or Dany or Bran or Smelly Peasant #235673 is AAR. We might as outside readers, but in universe? Eh.

In short: it's all religious propaganda and I don't know if it matters. Jon does "the thing" because he's the union of Ice and Fire, something wholly and completely new (we think...know...think...know...eh). Something that doesn't have a parallel to the past heroes. So again, the themes...they play out. The characters...individuals who might tred some well trod paths of cosmic universality, but not the same as character X from Ye Olden Days.