R+L=J v.140

[sj4iy]

Just curious, why do you think that? Do you think the search for a new Azor Ahai is actually a fruitless enterprise that misled characters in the book are undertaking? That would certainly be an inversion or perhaps destruction of a well known fantasy trope. However, I am pretty sure (and maybe someone knows the SSM) that Martin has said prophecy in ASOAIF does come true, but in usual and deceptive ways. That's how I tend to interpret things - Azor Ahai will be "reborn" or his role taken up again, but not in the obvious way ("I'm the hero! Stand back and watch me save the day with my flaming sword!"). But I would be surpsised, personally, to find that the prophecy is all a big joke and there is no Azor Ahai. Do you think there's a risk of being perceived as trolling his readers and not fulfilling the promises he's making as an author in the early books if he were to do that? Or would you think it's a fine joke or twist on fantasy?

ETA: in other words, are you of the opinion that Jon is dreaming of flaming swords and almost hearing the flap of dragon wings because Melisandre told him about dragons and Stannis is walking around with a "Lightbringer" sword and those things are just in his subconscious? At the least, I think it's cool Martin seems to make an effort to create situations that have more than one possible explanation.

I think there are parallels, definitely. But I don't think Martin is going to put such an important historical parallel in an unnecessary compendium if it were relevant to the story.

[Kingmonkey]

I think there are parallels, definitely. But I don't think Martin is going to put such an important historical parallel in an unnecessary compendium if it were relevant to the story.

I think that tells us that the parallel is inessential rather than irrelevant.

FWIW, my suspicion is that the prophecies essentially arise from a flawed understanding of cyclical events. Like LML I think it's likely that there was an initial trigger that was astronomical in nature, but also inherently magical. The original event set up a kind of morphic resonance that encourages certain patterns to repeat over history, and prophecy is a partial recognition of this. The events and the players will resemble what has gone before, but the mistake of those following prophecy is to assume they will mirror what has gone before. Interesting question is the degree to which the forces who seek to fulfil prophecies - the followers of R'hllor, the Shadowbindes, the FM, Rhaegar etc - cause the repeating of history, and the degree to which it is some kind of magical determinism.

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

[LmL]

I think there are parallels, definitely. But I don't think Martin is going to put such an important historical parallel in an unnecessary compendium if it were relevant to the story.

"Unnecessary Compendium" - BOO. HISS. I cannot fathom where people get this idea. Disagree 100%. TWOAIF is cannon, just as Dunk and Egg are. You don't HAVE to read those to enjoy the main story, but didn't we learn a whole lot more about Bloodraven, dragons, Targaryens, the themes of knighthood, etc etc by reading Dunk and Egg? The same is true for TWOAIF. George wrote 300,000 words for the book, only half of which were able to fit in there. That's a lot of effort by the author for an "unnecessary compendium." A closer look at TWOAIF shows that it is PACKED with lots of relevant information about literally everything in the story, not to mention loaded with metaphors and clues to important secrets which are also quite relevant to the main story. Martin wrote every word of the eastern stuff, and I'd guess he wrote every word of new information in that book. Elio and Linda are famous for compiling all the details of the story into a searchable database, and I'd assume that's mainly what they did for TWOAIF - summarize information that's presented in drips and drabs in the main book. I HIGHLY, highly doubt that they wrote any sort of new information, especially considering how much Martin wrote for the book.

Don't make the mistake of underestimating or closing yourself off to TWOAIF. You're only robbing yourself of joy, and valuable information for anyone trying to unravel the mysteries of the world.

Edit: it's important to stress that Martin did not really introduce new concepts in TWOAIF, only expanded on things that were mentioned in passing the main series. Deep Ones, ancient dragonriders, the Jhogos Nhai, Gemstone-Eyed Kings with flaming swords, Ice Dragons, the Church of Starry Wisdom - these were all introduced in the series. The stories about the Bloodstone Emperor are a clever way of telling us about someone we already know - Azor Ahai. Figuring out that these two are the same person is mainly important because it tells us more about Azor Ahai and his nature. Which is relevant to the main story. George has cleverly hidden this info by telling the story from a different perspective.

[addicted to snow]

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

I totally agree...

[LmL]

I think that tells us that the parallel is inessential rather than irrelevant. FWIW, my suspicion is that the prophecies essentially arise from a flawed understanding of cyclical events. Like LML I think it's likely that there was an initial trigger that was astronomical in nature, but also inherently magical. The original event set up a kind of morphic resonance that encourages certain patterns to repeat over history, and prophecy is a partial recognition of this. The events and the players will resemble what has gone before, but the mistake of those following prophecy is to assume they will mirror what has gone before. Interesting question is the degree to which the forces who seek to fulfil prophecies - the followers of R'hllor, the Shadowbindes, the FM, Rhaegar etc - cause the repeating of history, and the degree to which it is some kind of magical determinism. All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

The key to restoring balance and harmony to magic and the universe will likely involve some kind of resolution of the original cause of the great cosmic discord. I think George has hidden clues about the events of the Dawn Age and Long Night all through the series, as well as in TOWIAF, because he wants us to try to figure out what went down to inform us about what needs to happen to bring resolution. It's the broader context for the significant actions of our main characters. Figuring out what happened at the Battle for the Dawn won't tell us exactly how the book will end, but it will make the ending make even more sense.

I think TWOAIF was basically George feeding us a bunch of hints to help us solve puzzles he's hidden in the main series which basically nobody was on to. There's an SSM that talks about his editor telling him some of the stuff he's hidden in there is too subtle for anyone to figure out, and that he needs to make the clues more obvious. R+L=J represents the easiest and most obvious important puzzle to solve, to get our juices wet and teach us how to look for clues and how to read his language of symbols and foreshadowing. From there, it only goes deeper, but the same rules of foreshadowing, metaphor, and symbolism are used throughout the book. I myself credit History of Westeros and Radio Westeros for teaching me a lot of that; those guys and gals are obviously schooled in literature and mythology and understand how this sort of thing is done. Martin in many ways is writing modern mythology. And mythology, as most scholars know, is all based on astronomy at a certain level.

[Avalatis]

"Unnecessary Compendium" - BOO. HISS. I cannot fathom where people get this idea. Disagree 100%. TWOAIF is cannon, just as Dunk and Egg are. You don't HAVE to read those to enjoy the main story, but didn't we learn a whole lot more about Bloodraven, dragons, Targaryens, the themes of knighthood, etc etc by reading Dunk and Egg? The same is true for TWOAIF. George wrote 300,000 words for the book, only half of which were able to fit in there. That's a lot of effort by the author for an "unnecessary compendium." A closer look at TWOAIF shows that it is PACKED with lots of relevant information about literally everything in the story, not to mention loaded with metaphors and clues to important secrets which are also quite relevant to the main story. Martin wrote every word of the eastern stuff, and I'd guess he wrote every word of new information in that book. Elio and Linda are famous for compiling all the details of the story into a searchable database, and I'd assume that's mainly what they did for TWOAIF - summarize information that's presented in drips and drabs in the main book. I HIGHLY, highly doubt that they wrote any sort of new information, especially considering how much Martin wrote for the book.

Unnecessary as in it's not a part of the actual series of A song of Ice and Fire. It's a companion book. You don't have major plot elements hinging on something you have only characterized in companion book. That doesn't mean Martin won't have Dany come across someone who will explain this to her in the story. We still have two more books (at least) and it is quite possible that this could happen.

The Silmarillion was an interesting book on the world of Middle Earth and its vast history. You didn't need it to appreciate the main plots and story of Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. I use this as an example as Martin claims it as some of his inspiration for this series.

TWOIAF is good for scope and context. And while this might be a rehash of the Gemstone emperors, that fact might not actually be important to the story. If it is important to the story the author will introduce it to the actual books and characters living in the story.

[sj4iy]

I think that tells us that the parallel is inessential rather than irrelevant.

FWIW, my suspicion is that the prophecies essentially arise from a flawed understanding of cyclical events. Like LML I think it's likely that there was an initial trigger that was astronomical in nature, but also inherently magical. The original event set up a kind of morphic resonance that encourages certain patterns to repeat over history, and prophecy is a partial recognition of this. The events and the players will resemble what has gone before, but the mistake of those following prophecy is to assume they will mirror what has gone before. Interesting question is the degree to which the forces who seek to fulfil prophecies - the followers of R'hllor, the Shadowbindes, the FM, Rhaegar etc - cause the repeating of history, and the degree to which it is some kind of magical determinism.

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

That's an interesting take. My own thoughts are similar, in that I do believe it's a cyclical event...however, I believe that this is the story where the cycle is broken...hence my reasons for not believing it's a straight historical recreation.

"Unnecessary Compendium" - BOO. HISS. I cannot fathom where people get this idea. Disagree 100%. TWOAIF is cannon, just as Dunk and Egg are. You don't HAVE to read those to enjoy the main story, but didn't we learn a whole lot more about Bloodraven, dragons, Targaryens, the themes of knighthood, etc etc by reading Dunk and Egg?

You just contradicted yourself within a few sentences. You can't say that it's 'necessary' and then say 'you don't have tor read them to enjoy the main story'- that's what a "necessary compendium" would be. There is nothing in either TWOIAF or D&E that are 'necessary' for understanding or enjoying ASOIAF. Hence: "unnecessary".

[Han Snow]

That's an interesting take. My own thoughts are similar, in that I do believe it's a cyclical event...however, I believe that this is the story where the cycle is broken...hence my reasons for not believing it's a straight historical recreation.

You just contradicted yourself within a few sentences. You can't say that it's 'necessary' and then say 'you don't have tor read them to enjoy the main story'- that's what a "necessary compendium" would be. There is nothing in either TWOIAF or D&E that are 'necessary' for understanding or enjoying ASOIAF. Hence: "unnecessary".

It's necessary to understand how Martin posits his fake cyclical history smeared with magical and repeating astronomical events. To help understand how the roles were cast in previous cycles, the history of the cycles, how the roles might be cast this cycle, what are the ancient players still at large in present day, etc. Unnecessary in a way that means the reader does not need to read it for him/her to be able to enjoy and immerse him/herself in the story of this generation of characters that the main series is all about. But when the magical, prophetical Big Bang happens in the main series, and it certainly IS going to happen TWOIAF will certainly illuminate many and more of the parts that we fail to grasp without it. And by Big Bang I mean the inevitable conclusion of the story concerning all the magic, WWs, dragons, etc. Does it disappear, thus breaking the cycle once and for all returning the climate back to normal or something like that?!...

I am interested to see how the show deals with all the magic and prophecies because for now it dances around them like a cat around hot, hot porridge. I would not be surprised if it waves off the WWs, dragons,and all other magical stuff with a quick stroke and concentrates some more on the game for the throne.

[LmL]

That's an interesting take. My own thoughts are similar, in that I do believe it's a cyclical event...however, I believe that this is the story where the cycle is broken...hence my reasons for not believing it's a straight historical recreation.

You just contradicted yourself within a few sentences. You can't say that it's 'necessary' and then say 'you don't have tor read them to enjoy the main story'- that's what a "necessary compendium" would be. There is nothing in either TWOIAF or D&E that are 'necessary' for understanding or enjoying ASOIAF. Hence: "unnecessary".

Necessary for understanding the surface layer of the action, no. Enriching for context and deeper layers of meaning? Absolutely. Necessary for understanding the work building and prophecy? Yes. Vital for unravelling the secrets and mysteries, great and small? Yes. So I stand by my assertion that calling TWOAIF an "unnecessary compendium" is doing it a grave injustice. Furthermore, your dismissal of "all that eastern stuff" I believe to be mistaken. Dragons come from the east, as does fire magic, and fire magic and dragons are just as important to the story as ice magic and the Others. The Shadowlands and the Heart of Summer are like magical poles, and understanding both is pretty important if you want to try to understand magic and how it works.

It's all about how deep you want go and how much you want to understand about Martin's work. It's all relevant... I assume this board is generally for people who are trying to know as much as they can and unravel as much as they can. For this, every word of canon is relevant and bears scrutiny.

[addicted to snow]

If Jon Snow was Hispanic would everyone call him Juan Snow?

Would Juan get tons of shit from the cops for being Hispanic & all his friends calling him 'Lord Snow'? I bet his 4-runner gets completely dismantled by the cops every time he gets pulled-over.

[sj4iy]

Necessary for understanding the surface layer of the action, no. Enriching for context and deeper layers of meaning? Absolutely. Necessary for understanding the work building and prophecy? Yes. Vital for unravelling the secrets and mysteries, great and small? Yes. So I stand by my assertion that calling TWOAIF an "unnecessary compendium" is doing it a grave injustice. Furthermore, your dismissal of "all that eastern stuff" I believe to be mistaken. Dragons come from the east, as does fire magic, and fire magic and dragons are just as important to the story as ice magic and the Others. The Shadowlands and the Heart of Summer are like magical poles, and understanding both is pretty important if you want to try to understand magic and how it works.

It's all about how deep you want go and how much you want to understand about Martin's work. It's all relevant... I assume this board is generally for people who are trying to know as much as they can and unravel as much as they can. For this, every word of canon is relevant and bears scrutiny.

"Enrichment" is not the same as "necessary".

And it's not doing it a 'grave injustice'. If Martin needs the audience to know something in order to understand and enjoy ASOIAF, he will NOT put it in a compendium book primarily written by other people. I'm calling it what it is. You may have enjoyed it immensely...I enjoyed reading some of it, as well. But that doesn't blind me to what it is and how it fits in with the other books.

[Mithras]

Remember George's early draft? He designed his saga as Three Parts:

1. War of the Five Kings (Starks vs. Lannisters)

2. Dance of Dragons (Dany's invasion of Westeros)

3. War against the Others

He said that he had a very "clear vision" about the First Part. He was right because he used War of the Roses and such other things as his model. He knew what he was doing, where he was going and that is why he was able to bring the First Part to a conclusion in three books in relatively short time.

His struggling to proceed post-ASoS is partially due to the fact that he is a "gardener" and he didnot have such a good model for the next parts.

So, I think George didnot have a very clear vision about the Second and especially the Third Parts of his original trilogy at the beginning. He knew the broad strokes but the important details were missing and he probably thought that he would work them out gradually as the plot demands.

Fire & Blood (the unabridged version of Targaryen history of which two parts were released in two anthologies) serves as the model for the Second Part. The First Dance will serve as the model for the Second Dance as much as War of the Roses serves as a model for War of the Five Kings.

Similarly, fancy bard tales, rumors of the fisherfolk, sailor's tales, legends and myths, Barth's theories etc. all of which Yandel finds non-scientific and so dismisses, have nuggets of truth in them. These will serve as the model for the Third Part of the saga.

[LmL]

"Enrichment" is not the same as "necessary".

And it's not doing it a 'grave injustice'. If Martin needs the audience to know something in order to understand and enjoy ASOIAF, he will NOT put it in a compendium book primarily written by other people. I'm calling it what it is. You may have enjoyed it immensely...I enjoyed reading some of it, as well. But that doesn't blind me to what it is and how it fits in with the other books.

1.) your statement that TWOAIF is mostly written by other people is flat out wrong. George wrote over 300,000 words for it, half of which was cut. TWOAIF is about 180,000 words iirc, which means he wrote most of it, and as I said before, he wrote the entire eastern section. So yes, you are both dismissing it baselessly and doing it a grave injustice. And your facts are just wrong... which is actually good news for you, as it creates room for you to change you mind, given new information.

2.) Your assertion that "if Martin needs the audience to know something in order to understand and enjoy ASOIAF, he will NOT put it" in the Worldbook is a supposition you have made, based on nothing but your own opinion. Did Martin say anything like this? No? Then this is merely your opinion. I assume anything Martin has written about ASOIAF is relevant.

3.) You and I have entirely different mindsets about reading these novels, it would seem. I don't look at it as a race to be run or a task that we need to finish, only doing what's necessary to "complete the task." It's a work of art, and is appreciable from many different angles. The application of the word "necessary" to appreciation of art just strikes me as odd.

Again, with the example of Bloodraven: reading D&E isn't "necessary" to get that Bloodraven is an old Targaryen greenseer, but it certainly adds quite a bit to our understanding of Bloodraven. I don't see any point in belittling the information in TWOAIF or D&E or trying to sort them out into some other category of "unnecessary." It's all part of the masterpiece, and I figured we are all here to appreciate and discuss all aspects of the art, in particular to how they apply to RLJ on this thread. Dismissing the TWOAIF stuff as largely irrelevant is akin to shutting down conversation about material which may very well apply to RLJ.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, you need D&E to understand who 'Brynden' is. ASoIaF does not yet give us an explanation or a confirmation that Brynden is Bloodraven. People who don't research stuff on the net and haven't read D&E usually don't know who the three-eyed crow is.

That said, the idea that a lot of stuff Eastern stuff in TWoIaF will become important in the main series is very unlikely. There certainly stuff in there that is important for the main series - most prominently, I think, is the casual confirmation that Daenerys dragon eggs are actually Targaryen dragon eggs, that is the petrified eggs from Dragonstone her father tried to hatch.

TWoIaF is not the key or the blueprint for the remainder of the series just as the First Dance of the Dragons will have no or only very little similarities with the Second Dance (stuff like a male and a female pretender and a war involving living dragons).

The book is 100% George. Ran and Linda have cut down/rephrased stuff but they did not invent content. That's all George's doing (a few exceptions include the story about the weakness of the Blackwoods/Brackens during the Conquest and the names of some maesters and their books).

[sj4iy]

Lucifer,

If Martin requires the reader to read a table book in order to understand the ending of ASOIAF, then he's a bad writer. Good writers don't 'require' their readers to look into other sources to explain why the story ended the way it did. Hence my skepticism that Martin would do the whole "Dany is the amethyst princess" when he's never once mentioned them in the books proper. It might be a nice parallel, but it's not going to be necessary to understand the story itself. And while Martin was consulted for the book, he wrote very little of it. The book's format lends itself to retcon very easily as it is not an actual 'history' but a 'hearsay' history with obvious bias. You may have enjoyed it, but I found it lacking in substance. I did, however, enjoy the art immensely. But when a 'history' book that doesn't even relay the information we already know about the Others and says "oh, those tales are hard to credit, so I'm not going to bother with them here" is not, in my opinion, a great historical reference guide to the series.

I agree with Lord Varys above in that I don't see it as a blueprint for ASOIAF.

In any case, I think we both know where the other stands, and there's no reason to continue going in circles. This really isn't the thread for this conversation, anyway. So there's my say.

[LmL]

Lucifer,If Martin requires the reader to read a table book in order to understand the ending of ASOIAF, then he's a bad writer. Good writers don't 'require' their readers to look into other sources to explain why the story ended the way it did. Hence my skepticism that Martin would do the whole "Dany is the amethyst princess" when he's never once mentioned them in the books proper. It might be a nice parallel, but it's not going to be necessary to understand the story itself. And that book is NOT "100% George". Very little was written by George, and the book's format lends itself to retcon very easily as it is not an actual 'history' but a 'hearsay' history with obvious bias. You may have enjoyed it, but I found it lacking in substance. I did, however, enjoy the art immensely. But when a 'history' book that doesn't even relay the information we already know about the Others and says "oh, those tales are hard to credit, so I'm not going to bother with them here" is not, in my opinion, a great historical reference guide to the series.In any case, I think we both know where the other stands, and there's no reason to continue going in circles. This really isn't the thread for this conversation, anyway. So there's my say.

The problem is that your opinion of TWOAIF is based on simply innacurrate information, that's the nicest way I can say it.

Why, you might ask, is George R.R. Martin offering us a new book (The World of Ice and Fire) that's not the new book (The Winds of Winter)? Because he can't stop writing about Westeros! (Along with Essos, Sothoryos, and Ulthos, of course.) “I was supposed to write 50,000 words of text for sidebars, and then I wrote 300,000!” Martin told us recently, laughing over a slice of pizza. “The more I wrote, the more stories were coming, and it just got to be hundreds of pages long.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/11/07/the_world_of_ice_and_fire_george_r_r_martin_breaks_down_to_believe_in_game.html

We are having this discussion on this thread because I raised the topic of the Bloodstone Emperor as it relates to RLJ, and you attempted to shut down the conversation by dismissing the TWOAIF as an "unnecessary compendium." Now that I have corrected you in your erroneous assertions about TWOAIF, hopefully you can open you mind, or at least stop shutting down lines of conversation about material the author has written with your own baseless suppositions, so the rest of can discuss the author's work in full. That's all I am trying to say.

[sj4iy]

The problem is that your opinion of TWOAIF is based on simply innacurrate information, that's the nicest way I can say it.

Uh, no, it's not. I know who wrote the book, I've read it in its entirety and I am in no way 'incorrect' in my assessment of how the information is presented.

Disagree if you want to, but don't presume to say that I am making my judgments based on 'inaccurate' information.

[LmL]

Are you even reading my responses? You said:

And while Martin was consulted for the book, he wrote very little of it.

And George Martin said:

“I was supposed to write 50,000 words of text for sidebars, and then I wrote 300,000!”

You are just completely, completely wrong. Your statement is in every way incorrect, and your conclusions based on it are therefore suppositions based on wrong information. There is no way to square those two statements.

That's the last I will say about this, because no more needs be said. You disagree with Martin, therefore you are wrong.

/debate

[BearQueen87]

All of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

So say we all?

I think the general themes--light vs dark or maybe better put, life vs death--have happened before because of course they have. That basic story is happening, did happen, and will happen. It's the players that are different because as archetype as they might be they are still individuals and not doomed to trod the well trod path simply because "this happened before"

[sj4iy]

Are you even reading my responses? You said:

And George Martin said:

You are just completely, completely wrong. Your statement is in every way incorrect, and your conclusions based on it are therefore suppositions based on wrong information. There is no way to square those two statements.

That's the last I will say about this, because no more needs be said. You disagree with Martin, therefore you are wrong.

/debate

"No more needs to be said" after I tried to end this debate earlier in a friendly manner. You have refused.

You are taking this FAR too personally. And in doing so, you have been quite insulting. So just stop already.

I honestly don't give a shit whether or not you think I 'understand' a friggen' fake history book. Believe what you want about who wrote what, but it doesn't PROVE YOUR POINT.

If you want to make up these theories, fine. But unless I see it referenced in the actual story, I don't see how it will be significant to ASOIAF. Unless Martin references it in the actual story of ASOIAF, I don't see how it is anything other than a "oh, neat parallel" type thing...and I absolutely don't see it as something necessary to understand the story or how it ends. If it were necessary, it would be bad writing, because there's absolutely no reason to shuck off information necessary to the story in a $50 art book that most people won't bother reading.

Now, I have absolutely no wish to take up anymore of this thread's time with something that has absolutely nothing to do with R+L=J.