R+L=J v.140

[Ygrain]

What does Arya say right in the beginning? The woman is important, too.

[Alia of the knife]

Starks have crannogmen (hence CotF) blood after Rickard Stark defeated the Marsh King and took his daughter to wife.

A very plausible idea is that Brandon the Builder's mother was a CotF, hence the Starks took the skinchanging from the source directly.

Another possibility is that Brandon of the Bloody Blade was a person who impregnated female CotF and Brandon the Builder had CotF blood through the father side as well.

As for the curious case of Jon and all the other Stark kids having the gift: I think a union of Stark and Targaryen blood might have multiplied the magical potential in their bloods. I have speculated that Cat and her siblings might have illegitimate Targaryen blood through Minisa Whent and then through the Lothstons up to Aegon IV and Jeyne Lothston.

Wasn't there also a secret marriage between Prince Jace and a bastard sister of Cregan Stark?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wasn't there also a secret marriage between Prince Jace and a bastard sister of Cregan Stark?

Ah, rumored, but never proven.. :)

[Sveto]

My first post here. Here's my thoughts. I'm not big fan of such theories but I think the biggest clue in support of this theory is the vision that Daenerys Targaryen saw in that undying house. She saw supposedly her brother (judging from the colour of his hair) but I think the woman who was with Rhaegar was not described at all. She might not be his wife Elia. He played the harp. In the books it states that he loved the Stark girl, so I'm not sure if he'll play the harp for his wife who he supposedly didn't love. So I think it was Rhaegar, Lyanna and their son (Jon) in this vision. It must have happened some time after Rhaegar took Lyanna from Winterfell. The child's name doesn't matter here, because it was just their wish to name him Aegon. It connects with the other prophecy (might be from Barristan Selmy's chapter) where it says that "the mad king" or his father (not sure) marry a woman he didn't love because of a prophecy saying from this line will come "the prince that was promised". The other thing is that dream Jon had (about slaying dead man from the Wall with a burning sword (Master Aaemon says the Azor Ahai's sword (the prince that was promised) is supposed to be not just shiny but actually hot). The other dream that Jon had, when in the crypts of Winterfell, the statues of the dead Stark kings and lords whispering to him to go away because his place is not there.

[Greymoon]

My first post here. Here's my thoughts. I'm not big fan of such theories but I think the biggest clue in support of this theory is the vision that Daenerys Targaryen saw in that undying house. She saw supposedly her brother (judging from the colour of his hair) but I think the woman who was with Rhaegar was not described at all. She might not be his wife Elia. He played the harp. In the books it states that he loved the Stark girl, so I'm not sure if he'll play the harp for his wife who he supposedly didn't love. So I think it was Rhaegar, Lyanna and their son (Jon) in this vision. It must have happened some time after Rhaegar took Lyanna from Winterfell. The child's name doesn't matter here, because it was just their wish to name him Aegon. It connects with the other prophecy (might be from Barristan Selmy's chapter) where it says that "the mad king" or his father (not sure) marry a woman he didn't love because of a prophecy saying from this line will come "the prince that was promised". The other thing is that dream Jon had (about slaying dead man from the Wall with a burning sword (Master Aaemon says the Azor Ahai's sword (the prince that was promised) is supposed to be not just shiny but actually hot). The other dream that Jon had, when in the crypts of Winterfell, the statues of the dead Stark kings and lords whispering to him to go away because his place is not there.

iirc, it's been confirmed that the woman in the vision was Elia. What is it about the theory that you don't like? I've noticed that a lot of people say that, but quite often, they don't like the theory not because of what it says, but because of what they think it implies.

A lot of what happened between Harrenhal and the end of the rebellion, is guess work. A lot of what this theory means for the future of Jon Snow, is speculation. Some details are more certain than not, but others are really not certain and there is no consensus. For example, some believe that Rhaegar was obsessed with a prophecy, and wanted a third head for his dragon. Others believe that Rhaegar was a more reasonable man, and more politically apt. Others, think he was just plainly egocentric and an all around distasteful character.

The same is true for what this theory might mean for Jon. Some think that this makes Jon the heir of the IT, and just like that, he'll be King without having to work for it, because plot gift, GRRM said so. Others believe that it won't matter all that much, because Jon will have to earn recognition and titles with his own two hands. Others think he'll stay at the wall anyway and won't ever become King. Or that he'll press a claim on Winterfell instead. And so on.

So... What do you think about, when you think R+L = J ? What does it mean, to you?

[Sveto]

So... What do you think about, when you think R+L = J ? What does it mean, to you?

Nothing, I just replied to the thread lol. I think, plot wise, it'll be more interesting if Jon becomes one of the Others. Simply because we don't know nothing about what is the Great Other and is it the evil everyone think.

[LmL]

I think we are going to learn more about the Others, one way... or anOther.

[Greymoon]

Nothing, I just replied to the thread lol. I think, plot wise, it'll be more interesting if Jon becomes one of the Others. Simply because we don't know nothing about what is the Great Other and is it the evil everyone think.

But how would he become an Other? That's a different race of beings.... Benjen and Bran are better placed to give us insight on these...

ETA: You think nothing? But what is the R+L theory, in your opinion? I'm just curious, is all.

[Sveto]

But how would he become an Other? That's a different race of beings.... Benjen and Bran are better placed to give us insight on these...

ETA: You think nothing? But what is the R+L theory, in your opinion? I'm just curious, is all.

I was ask what i think about when I think R+L=J. When I said nothing i meant it doesn't mean much to me, doesn't matter if it's true or not. I think i said my thoughts on the theory. I think Jon might become one of the others because Melisandre saw a wooden face (or something like that) and a boy with wolf head in the snow. I think that might be Bran and Jon. She thinks they're the champions of the Great Other. How he become an Other... don't know, might be they bring him to life.

[Greymoon]

I was ask what i think about when I think R+L=J. When I said nothing i meant it doesn't mean much to me, doesn't matter if it's true or not. I think i said my thoughts on the theory. I think Jon might become one of the others because Melisandre saw a wooden face (or something like that) and a boy with wolf head in the snow. I think that might be Bran and Jon. She thinks they're the champions of the Great Other. How he become an Other... don't know, might be they bring him to life.

You are misunderstanding me, I'm not asking if you think it is true or not, but I'm asking you what you think happened or what you think the consequences might be. I'm trying to be nice and make conversation.... So, you have no opinion on that, like, at all?

[Ser Creighton]

Dany didnot shake hands with anybody IIRC, Jon did.

Dany didnot enter a male only military order and passed through symbolic initiation stages, Jon did.

Mithras is also a mediator god overseeing agreements, contracts etc. Dany was never in such a position, Jon was.

Shaking hands, that's it? You know it is always something with you of late. You should know that there are many different takes on Mithra/Mithras/Mithraic mysteries, the Greeks, the Romans, Iranian, Persians, all had their own takes and some are not even associated with the others. Dany actually does oversee agreements, mediation, and contract negotiations in Dance. She has an entire council she supervises, she oversees the agreement of the masons. She is trying to find common ground between slave and slavers, just as Jon is trying to find common ground between Wildlings and Watch, it has not been going that well for either of them.

Mithra did not join a religious order, there were many that were based off of him and not all are the same. Jon really did not go through 7 stages of recruitment, which is part of Mithra. He was a recruit then he was a member, the watch also heavily lacks that rather heavy religious aspect.

Now something you don't seem to understand is I did not say Jon is not associated with Mithras, I said right now he is not heavily associated with it. See that is all part of phases and cycles. Like the seasons, spring is not winter, but it is all part of the seasons, it's ust not at that point in it's existance yet.

I think Lucifer sometimes mentions Jon as a nightbringer figure, and I don't argue with that, I have spoken about that before. But being something now is not the same as becoming something later. You know the blue rose and Rhaegar are part of Dany's story, a big part of it, but that does not mean I think that Lyanna and Rhaegar are her parents. It just happens to be she is associated with it right now. The story of the sun and the moon is not part of Jon's story, it is part of Dany's story, that is where we are told about it. But that does not mean Jon won't be tied to it later, just that he has not been exposed to it right now.

Oath is a big thing with Mithras and Jon kind of wonders if he is an oath breaker. At times he very much wants to break his oath. If you are going to ignore the middle part of the books why are you reading them? Because that is where the books are at right now.

Shaking hands with Tyrion does not equal shaking hands with the sun. While Leo may be associated with the sun in Mythology, in the books they are in opposition. You know sometimes Mithras is the sun and sometimes he is associated with it. Mithras and the sun are also associated with the moon who he is closest with. He is also considered the guardian of water.

Now remind me who wrote the theory way before the world books about Jon the Sun, Dany the moon, the unity of opposition, inverse parallels and water?

Now when I spoke of Lion and Serpant I was not speaking of Sol in anyway, I was speaking about Cronos, that is one of the symbolic uses of that diety. That I would tie more to Tyrion but not right now. His story like Jon, is not their yet, but I would also associate Cronos with Bloodraven. The 3 stalks of wheat are clearly the sigil of house Selmy who happens to be in all white. Crows, associated heavily with Jon, but also associated heavily with Dany. The Stormcrows, her lover is in point of fact a blue eyed commander and leader of a crow military organization. That's her lover, another crow. Then you have Crows eye, Euron Greyjoy and he has his one blue and one black eye, his crows eye is the black eye and he conceals it that identity under a red patch. What does he want from Dany, well he wants dragons, he wants to ride a dragon, to fly. But also he wants to marry Dany and have a child with her, he wants to be king as well. I associate both these men with Jon, not to say Jon is like them but he does share somy symbolism. Jon would like some Dragons, he even said 3 dragons, he said he has dreamed of being king. He is the leader of a military order, and of course, red, blue, and black are all associated with Jon along with Crow of course. But he is not there yet which is the point of what I was saying. Dany is not there yet either, like the other characters they are on a journey and dealing with different phases of their lives right now.

Like Jon currently embraces his Stark side and his first men blood. Of the north and all that. Maybe later after a rather large reveal he will come to terms with his Targ side and embrace some aspects of that. And that is where you start see unity of opposition, maybe Dany helps him with that part of his story. She has a better grasp of that Targ side than he does, but the good and bad that comes with it. She currently understand more about ruling than he does, because she is a ruler, it's shit job in the series, but she still has more experience with it. Just like Jon has more experience with the north and the Night's watch.

Jon as lightbringer, Jon as night bringer, Jon as maybe both. Being one does not mean you can't be the Other. Anyway I think you missed the point I was making on the phases of a life and a journey. I also don't usse heavy one to one coparisons with mythology and influences, I consider them very broad loose interpretations by the author because he is not using one theme or one source. He has a broad spectrum of insperations and his own interpretations and take on these things. So I try not to lock anything to specfic down as I did with Mithras and sun and moon. Just sort of using them in a general sense, looking at some basic themes but not saying hey this is the only interpretation of lets say the sun.

I didn't really go into the Ahuric Triad or Rashnu and Sraosha, or Asha, or Ahura Mazda and Apam Napat.

Rashnu, justice, or how Mithra is the protector of the truth or often the truth, Dany is very heavily associated with bringing the truth. Jon on the other hand, does not know the truth, he knows nothing, which goes away from the wise aspects of Mithra. Dany is the slayer of lies and the only thing that slays lies is the truth. And Ahura iss not Mithras but only associated with him, he is Wisdom and Light. Not really associated ith Jon right now as know nothing and night are far more heavily associated with him in the symbolic sense.

Now note before all of this I was discussing the Solstice and Equinox. The summer solstice is heavily associated with Mithras, who was born in the summer, and not by my calculations, someone else did her borthday and I had look and look and read and found myself in agreement. But also Mithras at one point was associated with December, though that seems to have been put to rest. Though Jon does not seem to have been born during either season. Jon seems to have been born between august and october. Not my doing, I did not come up with that, though it seems accurate.

Because I associate Jon and Dany, so heavily I generally connect them with similar things. Did Martin use the three judges? Is that what trios is about? It could be one aspect of it. Though more and more he speaks of his sysmbolism having 3 layers, a primary, secondary and tartiary layer. But that does not mean it is not part of it. Or that he can achieve those layers with everything.

Are Jon or Dany god of harvest, and cattle? Not really, though Jon sort of had a white bull, and Danny had a Darry, a male Darry. Who she called her old bear, which I always though was intresting because in modern context, you have bulls and bears, who stand as opposite sides of the same thing. No real reason to call him a bear like with Jorah, but that is what she did.

There are many different takes on pretty much all mythology, and I am not an expert by any means. But I can identfy basic shared themes and symbolism like most people. So that is all I really went with. I skipped the handshake with Tyrion because it was of no great importance to overall symbolism and there are different interpretations of what it means. There is the basic friend meaning which is common even today. There is lion symbolism and sun symbolism, and the religious aspect of it. Are the Lannisters really heavily associated with being the Sun? Not really. Is the handshake a major theme in the story like the crows, the sun and the moon? No not really. Is there some significance to it? Probably, but a friend today could be a rival tomorrow in this series. The loyalty of the watch and the bonds of brotherhood? Did not play out all that well for Jon. We can say that bond was pretty heavily broken. There is oath breaking and betrayel there, lies, and abuses. Not really a big part of Mithra. Is the watch an angelic like organization? Not really, no there are a lot bad people and they are not all that faithful to their oath at all times.

The vows are good, but I can't say all members have subscribed to this duty and belief. Unlike the show, in the books, Dany's followers are really faithful and loyal to her. She is much more becoming a religious icon than Jon, but not of her own desire for such things.

Anyway I think you need to understand I approach the stories as a journey where I think all the phases and characters in those journeys matter. While the end and the begining and the beining and the end are an important aspect of the story along with the use of the cycle, I still embrace the journey of the characters above all else and consider it their story and they are all at certain points in their journeys. So when I say right now someone is not something or doing something, that is exactly what I mean and I often consider it from their perspective. While many fans say Jon is a Stark and Targ, Jon does not view himself that way, nobody in the books views him that way, he does not identify himself that way at this point. Later on is part of a different chapter in that journey. I don't want to assume I know how Martin will address Jon's or anyone feelings on matters like that.

[Kingmonkey]

I don't pay attention for a few days and the conversation gets interesting! Good to see LML joining the fun, an ever-interesting poster with lots of good ideas.

A couple of catch-up points.

Stark Wargs: Having a set of siblings who're all skinchangers appears to be a highly unusual thing. Varymyr notes that Jon is a particularly strong skinchanger, Bran is obviously something very special, and Arya, with no training and separated from her Direwolf, is able to warg into Nymeria over vast distances and can skinchange into cats, which is supposedly particularly hard. My reading here is that the Starks have some seriously powerful warg mojo in their blood, probably from the Warg King's daughters. Lyanna's half-a-horse thing hints it was there but undeveloped in her, so no problem for Jon. The direwolf pups appear to have been the trigger that allowed this generation of Starks to develop that inherent skill. Maybe that was someone's plan all along.

Weddings, sacrifices and Jon or Dany: I'm not convinced that it has to be Jon OR Dany, why can't it be both, echoing different parts? I go along with the view that the Azor Ahai & Last Hero stories are highly symbolic and probably don't apply to specific historical individuals. It's interesting to consider that Quaithe appears to be trying to set Dany on a particular path, and that Rhaegar seems to have attempted to seek ways to fulfil prophecy. If a prophecy is truly a foretelling, it shouldn't be necessary to actively seek to fulfil it. Perhaps what has come down in the form of prophecy is more like a formula -- a magical principle or spell that, if followed whether intentionally or accidentally, creates a certain effect through a kind of magical resonance. Thus Dany & Drogo's marriage was a kind of accidental chymical wedding, a meeting of the correct magical circumstances to perform a sacred ritual. When the moon kisses the sun, dragons are reborn. Someone brought up the wedding symbolism between Jon and Val; perhaps that too acted as a sacred ritual without anyone realising it. Val may have a rather uncomfortable Nissa Nissa role to play too.

[Ellfoy]

Oh guys ! You definitely need to watch episode 4...

[IceFire125]

kyaaaa!!!! episode 4!!!!!

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, that was quite telling and as I somewhat suspected.

[sj4iy]

I predicted we'd get information dumps this season. So did a few others.

Glad to see we were right XD

[sj4iy]

Also, the R+L=J (legitimate) theory is mentioned in this episode 4 review:

http://time.com/3842178/game-of-thrones-recap-sons-of-harpy/

[ecchirebirth]

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Ok, about this part. No one else in the 7 kingdoms really likes the crannogmen, aside from the nearly annihilated Starks. I can't see any other families listening to what Howland says, as far as who should rule the realms. That leaves Stannis and Mel at this point. and they aren't exactly popular.

Besides, there's no solid, irrefutable proof of Jon's parentage. Considering he doesn't look at all like a Targ, and that he's lived his life as an unnoticed bastard of the north, I can't see anyone supporting him claiming the throne ... hell, he probably wouldn't follow that path himself.

[sj4iy]

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?

Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Ok, about this part. No one else in the 7 kingdoms really likes the crannogmen, aside from the nearly annihilated Starks. I can't see any other families listening to what Howland says, as far as who should rule the realms. That leaves Stannis and Mel at this point. and they aren't exactly popular.

Besides, there's no solid, irrefutable proof of Jon's parentage. Considering he doesn't look at all like a Targ, and that he's lived his life as an unnoticed bastard of the north, I can't see anyone supporting him claiming the throne ... hell, he probably wouldn't follow that path himself.

I think you are misunderstanding what people here are saying.

No one is saying that Jon's parentage = automatic kingship. Or even that people would necessarily believe who he is.

That's not the point of his parentage...the point is that he is the song of ice and fire, with the abilities of the Valyrians and the abilities of the First Men. He has the blood of the Kings of Winter on his mother's side, and the blood of the Dragon kings on his father's side. At this point in time, that is important. And that makes him uniquely qualified in the upcoming War for the Dawn.

If Jon does become king (and that's a pretty big 'if'), it will be because of what he's done, not because of who he is. And it won't be Jon pressing the claim, but others pressing it for him based on his ability to lead.

[BearQueen87]

crazy flailing over HH talk in the WF crypts between LF and Sansa!!!