R+L=J v.140

[Frey family reunion]

Of course Roman Mithraism and Mithras have little to do with the Mithra in Persian tradition. Some people suggest that Roman Mithraism was developed due to astronomical advances like the discovery of precession and I am more inclined to believe that interpretation.

Dany is not mediator in ADwD. She is a ruler with ultimate authority and she also belongs to one of the conflicting sides. Jon OTOH does not have absolute authority and he does not truly belong to any of the sides (Stannis, king's men, queen's men, wildlings, Stark loyalists, the Lannister regime etc.).

Jon has been to several stages of Mithraic initiation. Hell the first thing he became was a crow which is the first stage of Mithraic initiation. It is not Martin's way to take this initiation process exactly but it is clear that he is making references to them.

I can't see how blue rose is related to Dany.

Oath is a big thing for Jon and he is determined to break his oaths for the greater good. Mithras slays the bull as a grisly act, something probably he should not have done but the result is the creation of life from the blood of the bull.

Mithraic initiates call themselves those united by the handshake. The sun when it is at the maximum of its power during the summer stays in the house of the lion (constellation Leo).

Jon is obviously the harvest deity. He was called Corn King, offerings were made to him (in the form of wildlings surrendering their wealth while passing the Wall) and he was sacrificed in the end of ADwD.

Lann the clever was said to steal the gold of the sun to make his hair fair. So, there is association of the Lannisters with the sun.

Speaking of the Mithraic mysteries, one of the initiations is offering a wreath to the initiate on the point of a sword. The initiate must then place the wreath on his head and then push it off with the flat of his hand.

That seems awfully similar to what we have at the Harrenhal tourney where Rhaegar offers Lyanna a wreath on the tip of his lance.

I've been recently rethinking the Harrenhal tourney quite a bit after reading the World of Ice and Fire chapter on the Reach. The Gardner Kings of old always wore a crown of flowers in honor of their founder Garth Gardner (who based on his various descriptions seems to be what we call (and perhaps what Westeros calls) a Green Man). In addition it was the Gardner kings (or more precisely their queens) who presided over tourneys of love and beauty, where knights of the Reach competed for the love of the fairest maids with feats of arms, songs, poetry, and demonstrations of virtue, piety, and chaste devotion. The champions were honored with an invitation to join the Order of the Green Hand.

What if the Lyanna was crowned with the wreath of blue roses not because Rhaegar was competing for her love, but instead Rhaegar was awarding her for her role as The Knight of the Laughing Tree (if indeed it was her) as the one who showed both feat of arms, and a demonstration of virtue for championing the cause of Howland Reed? Further, is it possible that the tight knit company that Rhaegar kept and the secrets that they shared (as Barristan noted) was perhaps because they were part of a secret society (perhaps a return to the Order of the Green Hand?) and Lyanna was being given an invitation through the blue rose wreath?

Finally one other thought about the Harrenhal tourney during the False Spring came to me that it is awfully similar to a Beltane (or May Day ritual). Take the image of Rhaegar's lance with the ring of roses on the end and stand it straight up, and you get a Maypole. In the Beltane/May Day rituals you also have the crowning of a May Queen (a la Lyanna) and the arrival of a Green Man (in this case Howland Reed). Often in these rituals you have a pairing of the May Queen and the Green Man. As for Aerys and his pyromancers presence, Beltane is also a fire ritual. And often you have the burning (usually symbolic) of a Wicker Man. While not during the tourney we do get our burning of Rickard (sounds like Wicker) Stark.

[addicted to snow]

We could go round and round about dreams, but I personally think they are dragon dreams, not greenseer dreams. There's no reason to believe that Jon is a greenseer given their rareness.

And I'm guessing Jon's berserker abilities aren't a coincidence. Or his fiery temper.

Just because his dragon side hasn't outright been stated doesn't mean that he is lacking one.

I think you are confusing Green Dreams with being a Greenseer... I don't think that anyone was tying to argue that Jon is a Greenseer, that is something that you injected into the discussion...

Besides, Practically everyone in the series has prophetic dreams at some point or the other... This really does not make Jon special or unique in any way...

[sj4iy]

I believe that dragon dreams are suppose to include dragons, either real or metaphorical.

Why? They are simply called dragon dreams because of who dreams them- not because of what's in them. If Bran or Jojen had a greenseer dream about dragons, they wouldn't call them dragon dreams. Nor would Dany be called a greenseer.

[RumHam]

I believe that dragon dreams are suppose to include dragons, either real or metaphorical.

That is interesting. While most of them do involve dragons I find it hard to believe that that is an actual requirement. I mean because "dragons" are the ones having these dreams it seems natural that most of the dreams would involve the Targaryens to some degree. Daenys's dream about the Doom for example may or may not have included dragons/Targaryens/other dragonlords. Daemon II's dream about Dunk being in the kingsguard is another possibility. Yes you'd think the dream would show Dunk guarding a "dragon" king, but if it did then Daemon should have known that Dunk would not be in his Kingsguard.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That is interesting. While most of them do involve dragons I find it hard to believe that that is an actual requirement. I mean because "dragons" are the ones having these dreams it seems natural that most of the dreams would involve the Targaryens to some degree. Daenys's dream about the Doom for example may or may not have included dragons/Targaryens/other dragonlords. Daemon II's dream about Dunk being in the kingsguard is another possibility. Yes you'd think the dream would show Dunk guarding a "dragon" king, [b[but if it did then Daemon should have known that Dunk would not be in his Kingsguard.

Why? Daemon was/considered himself a dragon..

[RumHam]

Why? Daemon was/considered himself a dragon..

Oh, I wasn't picturing a dream where Dunk is all in white guarding an actual dragon. It seems to me Daemon did not consider the "actual dragons in dreams may represent Targaryens" thing. Cause you know, he expected an actual dragon to hatch at Whitewalls. I was saying Daemon's dream probably didn't include the king dunk was guarding (Egg.) Otherwise Daemon should realize "hey, that's not me."

[Mithras]

My definition of dragon dreams is this: Dragon dreams are shaped and sent by the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom members to those with the blood of the dragon for the yet unknown sinister purposes. From day 1, Dany was fed with dreams about kinslaying of Viserys and unleashing the beast inside her.

Quaithe seems like a high profile member of the Church and she was definitely present in AGoT.

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

She woke to the taste of ashes.

This was from the fever dreams of Dany after the stillbirth. There was no Quaithe nor glass candles yet.

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

“Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?”

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.

“Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

And this was from the Dothraki Sea at the end of ADwD. That makes it certain that Quaithe was shaping and sending dreams to Dany even in AGoT. And her affiliation with the stars suggests that she should be related to the Church of Starry Wisdom. The World Book also cracked the code about the gemstone emperors and kings in Dany's dream. The Great Empire of the Dawn, Amethyst Empress, Bloodstone Emperor, Blood Betrayal etc. these are all very important things that have direct relevance to what is going on in the magical sphere.

[sj4iy]

I think dragon dreams are nothing more than the prophetic dreams of those with Valyrian blood. No crazy theory as to why- it's just 'magic'.

[Mithras]

I think dragon dreams are nothing more than the prophetic dreams of those with Valyrian blood. No crazy theory as to why- it's just 'magic'.

Bloodraven openly admitted that he was part of Bran's dreams. And the dreams of Bran in coma reek manipulation and dream weaving. So, why not we take the dragon dreams as such, especially given that we have clues pointing to manipulation in those dreams too.

[LmL]

Just reading back over the last two pages, a couple of tidbits. First, a couple random "Lannisters as the sun" metaphors that I had handy in my notes, I'm sure there are more.

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

[...]

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. The things I do for love, it said. Bran screamed. The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Brans shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

AGOT, BRAN

This is Kevan thinking about Cersei and Lyanna:

The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

Behind a veil of ragged clouds, a full moon floated fat and white as a snowball.

ADwD, Epilogue.

[LmL]

As for Jon and dragon dreams.. Compare these two passages:

If I were a dragon, I could fly to Westeros , she thought when he was gone. I would have no need of Xaro or his ships . Dany wondered how many men thirteen galleys could hold. It had taken three to carry her and her khalasar from Qarth to Astapor, but that was before she had acquired eight thousand Unsullied, a thousand sellswords, and a vast horde of freedmen. And the dragons, what am I to do with them? “Drogon,” she whispered softly, “where are you?” For a moment she could almost see him sweeping across the sky, his black wings swallowing the stars.

ADWD, Daenerys

"See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Arya , he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

“Kings and dragons.”

Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

“If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla’s boy, not your monster. A word in the king’s ear would have been the end of it.” And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason . “Why let it happen if she knew?”

ADWD, Jon

I believe someone in the Dunk and Egg novels has a similar experience, and I think Maetser Aemon too - anyone know that quote? This seems like a waking dragon dream or a dragon vision trying to manifest. I think these experiences should be grouped with dragon dreams for all intents and purposes.

[LmL]

Here's the Aemon quote:

“Dragons,” Aemon whispered. “The grief and glory of my House, they were.”

“The last dragon died before you were born,” said Sam. “How could you remember them?”

“I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half- remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend … or …”

“Or?” said Sam.

“… or not.”

[Avalatis]

Regarding the whole Mithra discussion. While I found that R+L=Lightbringer thread to be interesting I saw a lot of projection onto the author. There is this concept amongst the creative arts that nothing is original. People have been writing and creating for thousands of years. So in this case is Martin channeling Mithra or is he borrowing from a symbolic group that existed from out world? He could have liked several aspects without wanting to copy other aspects.

Martin is creating his own mythos with borrowed cultural references from our world. Concepts of Messiahs and the like can be projected onto Martin's world, but I don't think we can follow that line of thinking and state that Jon is going to be Jesus and there will be a major religion based off of him after this event ends. Snowites? Snowians?

[LmL]

The main thing is to remember that George is borrowing symbolism and some plot elements, but never following any one myth completely. I think the Mithras correlation is undeniable, myself, as are the Ragnarok correlations. But I wouldn't expect ASOAIF to end like either story, you know?

In any case, George is well versed in the language of symbolism which religion and mythology use as their modus operandi, and has literally filled his books with adaptions of such. It's quite enriching to explore the mythological context in which George has created his characters, but of course common sense dictates that it is just that, context, and George is in fact writing his own story. He is creating his own mythology, but he's adapting it from the stories we already have. The truth is that various world myths are all quite similar, and all based on astronomy, and I think he's recreated that in the story. I'm finding that certain in world myths are actually different versions of the same story, which is very cool.

[FrozenFire3]

The truth is that various world myths are all quite similar, and all based on astronomy, and I think he's recreated that in the story. I'm finding that certain in world myths are actually different versions of the same story, which is very cool.

Archetypes structuring the collective unconscious. Any and every story has already been told, but it's the way that it is told - its unique 'flavour' - that still leaves room for authorial originality.

[Lord Varys]

The Church of Starry Wisdom worship the Shining Trapezohedron. Nyarlathotep does not care about dragon dreams.

As to dragon dreams:

Figurative dragons representing those of the dragon line and literal dragons may actually appear in all of those dreams. Daemon the Younger assumed the hatching of dragon from an egg at Whitewalls could only refer to a literal dragon - after all, you have to go with weird and far-fetched stuff like a Targaryen prince with the nickname 'Egg' revealing himself as a dragon prince at Whitewalls while a different disguised dragon prince was there, too. That's not exactly the first interpretation of such a dream that would spring to mind, nor the second.

In Daeron the Drunk's case the dragon representing a Targaryen seemed to be the best interpretation as it featured Dunk slaying a big dragon in a day and age in which there were no real dragons. However, an unknown surviving real dragon could have shown up at Ashford to be slain by Dunk there.

Aegon V later on also seemed to be dreaming of literal dragons as he apparently dreamed of dragons flying over Westeros again - I imagine he might have seen Dany and her dragonriders during/after their return to Westeros.

Shireen may dream about literal dragons, merely about the ghastly stone dragons of Dragonstone, an aspect of herself, or the dragon-blooded people who are going to kill her.

Teora Toland's dreams may be about literal dragons - where Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are dancing people will die/have died (her dream could merely have represented Quentyn's death, for instance) - as well as the pretenders to the Iron Throne during the coming Second Dance of the Dragons. That is difficult to say. You could make a case for the former with the argument that Arianne 1 was originally supposed to be in ADwD and most likely intended to occur prior to Quentyn's death in Meereen (and the 'a dance with dragons' line after Quentyn's death would have been then a hint to Teora's dream).

And as I've said earlier - the fact that whatever magical talent the Targaryen dragon dreamers have inherited tends to represent 'those of the blood of the dragon' as literal dragons in their prophetic dreams strongly suggests that there is indeed a magical-genetic connection between the dragonlords and their dragons as there is no reason why the subconscious of a dragon dreamer would subconsciously obfuscate a dream depicting the future by representing some people as animals (dragons) while others remain men. That is, unless the magical prophetic talent would perceive those of the dragon line as dragons because, in a magical sense, they are in part dragon.

[BearQueen87]

Archetypes structuring the collective unconscious. Any and every story has already been told, but it's the way that it is told - its unique 'flavour' - that still leaves room for authorial originality.

Which is why I prefer to call GRRM the "messer upper of tropes" instead of the breaker of tropes. He plays with the constructs that history and myth know...but he doesn't flat out break them.

And in other news: omg the forum let me on! *hugs RLJ* I swear I haven't been able to get in here in like days.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Which is why I prefer to call GRRM the "messer upper of tropes" instead of the breaker of tropes. He plays with the constructs that history and myth know...but he doesn't flat out break them.

And in other news: omg the forum let me on! *hugs RLJ* I swear I haven't been able to get in here in like days.

As to your other news: Does anyone know if Ran is going to or is trying to expand the band width for this site so that access problems don't keep happening? I appreciate what he has done insetting up these boards without any cost to me, so I have no right to complain -- but the situation is frustrating nonetheless (and I have not seen any announcement addressing the issue).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to your other news: Does anyone know if Ran is going to or is trying to expand the band width for this site so that access problems don't keep happening? I appreciate what he has done insetting up these boards without any cost to me, so I have no right to complain -- but the situation is frustrating nonetheless (and I have not seen any announcement addressing the issue).

From the Board Issues thread, they are trying to fix problems, and have speculated about possible solutions for in the future (can't remember the exact details atm), but atm, it is not just the traffic that has been causing problems, but the wiki-upgrade as well..

[UnmaskedLurker]

From the Board Issues thread, they are trying to fix problems, and have speculated about possible solutions for in the future (can't remember the exact details atm), but atm, it is not just the traffic that has been causing problems, but the wiki-upgrade as well..

Thanks for the link -- a bit confusing but I think I get the gist of what the problem is (and I realize it does not seem to be a traditional "bandwidth" issue but more of a coding problem with an updated version of certain parts of the site).