A spoon of knife and fork Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I think Petyr wants Sansa for herself, maybe more than he wants anything (or as the show put it, "Oh, everything"). But, like with Catelyn, he is a patient, calculating man... he can wait until the time is right. Littlefinger still wanted to marry Catelyn, even after Ned died and they had both changed (he even thought she would want the same!). In going to the north, Littlefinger believes Sansa will fall in love with him if he gives her home and family back to her. That's why he's there. He will be part of the greatest alliance in Westeros, assuming he does unite the Vale and the North through a marriage to Sansa. He will, in the end, have everything he has ever wanted. So regarding Ramsey, I see a few possibilities. 1) he really has no clue what Ramsey is. He expects Sansa to marry Ramsey and produce an heir, then Ramsey will be gotten rid of and Sansa with her heir will turn on Roose. Littlefinger then believes that he can marry Sansa himself for the above reason. But, instead, Sansa will learn about his part in her fathers' betrayal and death, and kill him instead. This is, IMO, exactly where the book is headed with HtH. Except of course the child of Sansa and HtH would be the double heir to both the North and the Vale, assuming no bran/rickon. Show can get around this problem by having Sansa inherit the Vale as well as the North through there being no HtH (or any other heir), or just keeping SR alive and LF as his Regent. 2) He knows who Ramsey is, more or less, and he will work (either through Sansa, or on his own, or both) to ensure that he is taken out, and that Sansa escapes to seek the support of the Northern Alliance, probably before even wedding Ramsey. Then, like above, Littlefinger will try to marry Sansa himself, with the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeping Sore Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 According to an interview (Slate or Vulture, not sure which) at least (LF actor) Aiden Gillen believes that Sansa is the only living person LF cares for. If true, then we're just supposed to take his lack of knowledge of Ramsay's insanity at face value. (Still seems like too big of an unknown to go forward with, given what he knows of Roose's character). Still, how does this serve LF's master plan? If LF's schemes turn out to be important to the end of ASoIaF per GRRM's outline for D&D, that means the Sansa Bolton marriage can still get us there. If LF's schemes turn out to be irrelevent (not likely) then D&D are free to let LF crash and burn. I'll be interested to see how he spins this for Cersei's benefit and whether he is currently taking Stannis seriously or not. The marriage doesn't immediately read as a strategic masterstroke, I'll admit, but I'm curious to see how it plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADanceWithCats Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I really, really don't think he will mention this to Cersei. I mean, he would have to start from, 'so, how did you get to meet her, anyway?' And I mean, why should he? This is pre-Internet. It's not like the wedding will be live-Tweeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bane66 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Is there any chance Sansa finds out that Petyr betrayed her father after Robert died? And if so then what happens to her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Well, Roose and Littlefinger gave a lot of foreshadowing about "taking gambles". Sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. I think when this whole Winterfell issue is said and done, LF will have gambled and lost. He will not be able to simply stroll into Winterfell, with or without a Vale army and "take possession" of Sansa. Especially if Rickon is alive and well. Also, I think between the existing Northerners, Wildings and probably Stannis, Sansa could and would tell him that his help is no longer needed. Especially if she endures some traumatic hardships that undoubtably he will assure her would not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Is there any chance Sansa finds out that Petyr betrayed her father after Robert died? And if so then what happens to her? The Hound is the only real possibility for telling her this. He was in the throne room and was Joff's personal bodyguard. He may have been in the room when Joff was convinced to take Ned's head, which LF needed to happen. If Ned had taken the black, he could and would have told everyone that LF betrayed him to Cersei and LF's reputation would have been destroyed in the Vale, to Cat and to Sansa. From LF perspective, Ned had to die as dead men tell no tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehearted Snake Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 The Hound is the only real possibility for telling her this. He was in the throne room and was Joff's personal bodyguard. He may have been in the room when Joff was convinced to take Ned's head, which LF needed to happen. If Ned had taken the black, he could and would have told everyone that LF betrayed him to Cersei and LF's reputation would have been destroyed in the Vale, to Cat and to Sansa. From LF perspective, Ned had to die as dead men tell no tales.I think some folks in the Discussing Sansa thread were theorizing just that - that it's the Hound who is Sansa's "old friend" in episode 8, "Hardhome." I'm not sure if I agree but it's an interesting possibility and I agree that it's probably the only way Sansa would learn the truth of LF's betrayal.ETA: oh it was you arguing that in the other thread! lol well anyhow I do think it is a good argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeping Sore Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Well, Roose and Littlefinger gave a lot of foreshadowing about "taking gambles". Sometimes they pay off and sometimes they don't. I think when this whole Winterfell issue is said and done, LF will have gambled and lost. He will not be able to simply stroll into Winterfell, with or without a Vale army and "take possession" of Sansa. Especially if Rickon is alive and well. Also, I think between the existing Northerners, Wildings and probably Stannis, Sansa could and would tell him that his help is no longer needed. Especially if she endures some traumatic hardships that undoubtably he will assure her would not happen. Could LF have a replacement groom up his sleeve after the Boltons die? Gendry, having rowed all the way to the Fingers, now being held on ice? Unfortunately, there's the little matter of no monarch likely to legitimize him...but the show side-stepped calling Sansa Mrs. Lannister, so maybe they'd figure out a dodge for that too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Storm Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Show Sansa wont be a killer, Varys makes sense. Their rivalry goes back to S1 anyway. Why else is LF in KL for? For what purpose?? I see only 1 ending - his death.He's going to kill Kevan and Pycelle. Calling it now. Show Varys seems way to nice of a person to kill them, plus why would he turn back to KL when he's already on the way to Meeren. Where as LF is going to KL, he's openly screwing with the Lannisters, and he keeps on going on about how much he needs chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I think some folks in the Discussing Sansa thread were theorizing just that - that it's the Hound who is Sansa's "old friend" in episode 8, "Hardhome." I'm not sure if I agree but it's an interesting possibility and I agree that it's probably the only way Sansa would learn the truth of LF's betrayal.ETA: oh it was you arguing that in the other thread! lol well anyhow I do think it is a good argument!thanks :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Could LF have a replacement groom up his sleeve after the Boltons die? Gendry, having rowed all the way to the Fingers, now being held on ice? Unfortunately, there's the little matter of no monarch likely to legitimize him...but the show side-stepped calling Sansa Mrs. Lannister, so maybe they'd figure out a dodge for that too... Other than himself, no, besides, what is Littlefinger going to tell Lord Royce, Lady Waynewood and Lyn Cobray when word gets out that Littlefinger just lied to them and took Sansa Stark to Winterfell to marry Bolton's boy? Especially when everyone knows what the Bolton's did. They did send the Vale messenger to Winterfell to deliver Cersei's message, so word has gotten out, has it not. No, if littlefinger shows up for the Wedding or other reason, he will have Vale troups with him, austensibly to fight off Stannis as the whole purpose in marrying Sansa to house Bolton, to force and alliance. Lf is planning to double cross the Boltons as he thinks it will better him and Sansa, whom he wants for himself and to Wed himself to be more specific. Problem is, Rickon is alive and he is the heir to Riverrun after Edmure Tully and is defacto king in the North, as the Lannisters and Tyrells will not go up there. Lf if the one who may end up with the short end of the stick in this. About damn time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehearted Snake Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 He's going to kill Kevan and Pycelle. Calling it now. Show Varys seems way to nice of a person to kill them, plus why would he turn back to KL when he's already on the way to Meeren. Where as LF is going to KL, he's openly screwing with the Lannisters, and he keeps on going on about how much he needs chaos. Good theory. Makes sense. I've been trying to figure out what Varys could possibly be doing the rest of the season. He has no reason to go back to KL. In the books he is paving the way with chaos for fAegon to return. He is the mastermind in the grand plan. That's not the case (as far as we know) between show!V and his support for Dany. Why would he sow chaos before he knows if/when Dany will be returning? So I agree that LF taking that plot role makes much more sense. And like you said it makes more sense for the show!characters in terms of how they have been developed (ie, V is too nice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Martell Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I for one think Littlefinger is not as careful in the show as he´s in the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehearted Snake Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I for one think Littlefinger is not as careful in the show as he´s in the books Agree. I think a lot of the hand-wringing about how LF would never do this is conflating book!LF with show!LF. Show!LF is much more reckless. But I also don't think he cares as much about Sansa as he does about power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakin1013 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Agree. I think a lot of the hand-wringing about how LF would never do this is conflating book!LF with show!LF. Show!LF is much more reckless. But I also don't think he cares as much about Sansa as he does about power. THIS! In the book, the character of LF was clear and set in his pursuit for power and status. Show LF seems to be a bit more impulsive and less calculating. I do think he cares about Sansa, but I think she sits in second place. Power is always driving LF. If he can get Sansa in power, then he gets everything he wants: the power and the girl. I hope the upset here is that the girl gets and takes the power and declines LF on any level. He would so deserve that. There is something so incredibly creepy of his constant Sansa stalking, like we are watching pervy grooming at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehearted Snake Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 THIS! In the book, the character of LF was clear and set in his pursuit for power and status. Show LF seems to be a bit more impulsive and less calculating. I do think he cares about Sansa, but I think she sits in second place. Power is always driving LF. If he can get Sansa in power, then he gets everything he wants: the power and the girl. I hope the upset here is that the girl gets and takes the power and declines LF on any level. He would so deserve that. There is something so incredibly creepy of his constant Sansa stalking, like we are watching pervy grooming at work. "Impulsive and less calculating" - exactly. Remember when he was so snarky to Cersei about power in season 1? And he was so obvious about his shenanigans to Sansa in season 3. He's much shrewder in the books. He stays behind the scenes. I actually don't really mind this plot change that much, I've heard some good analysis of show!LF's motives about revenge. But I do think he is not being all that smart about it. I'm not sure if he knows about Ramsay but either way it's stupid - it's stupid if he doesn't know because he could have researched it and easily found out (we know Ramsay is flaying actual lords out in the open now, not just peasants) but it's also stupid if he does know and is just gambling with Sansa and hoping he makes out ahead in the game of thrones in the end. It's just reckless. But not out-of-keeping with his show character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 30, 2015 Author Share Posted April 30, 2015 I watched the replay of the episode last night, and I noticed that in the scene up in the hills Littlefinger for the most part does not look Sansa in the eye when he is speaking to her. The only time he looks her in the face is when he puts his hands on her face and asks her if she wants revenge. (er, I think that's what he said :P ) That failure to look her in the eye makes me very suspicious. Also, when Sansa comes back and gets on her horse, he's on his horse behind her, and he has a smirking grin on his face, like the cat that ate the canary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefertari Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 No. Littlefinger may have a fascination with her because she reminds him of Catelyn, but when all is said and done ... Littlefinger only cares about Littlefinger. This. And he may have fooled her by making her believe that he wants her more than he actually does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I believe he does, absolutely, in the most selfish ways possible. However, he also needs her to acheive things that he hopes to benefit from, therefore he HAS to gamble with her to obtain such things. This, however, I hope and should cost him Sansa as she is being placed in a situation that atleast for a while, he has no control over. He wants Sansa to take the North and the Boltons gone, actually, Me thinks he will use the Vale troops to take out the Boltons while posing as allies, then finish Stannis off so Sansa has the North and he can "Take/Marry" her, however, he does not know that Rickon and Bran are alive. This is where he will fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Yes, it was Lady Hornwood, and I would hardly call her his wife, he forced her to say the vows and then starved her to death so he can take control of her land. Ramsay raped her in the books to consumate the marriage then locked her away with no food and water, she ate her own fingers when she was found dead later on. I believe. She was Wyman Manderly's first cousin, maiden name was Manderly too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.