Strongest Castle/(s)? When it comes to lasting a heavy siege?

[Kyll.Ing.]

^If you insist on drawing the system boundaries like that, one might as well say "Westeros" and call that a day. Okay, I can grant you the Gates of the Moon, but including the Bloody Gate as part of the defenses of the Eyrie is stretching it.

Then again, it doesn't really change the conclusion many posters have come to. If you manage to get through the Gates of the Moon and take the castle, you can fortify it and call it a day. No need to fight your way all the way up to the Eyrie, since they're not going anywhere either. The only way up is through the Gates, and that goes for the way down too. You might want to take Stone, but it's not necessary, given that the defenders won't have enough strength to retake the Gates of the Moon from the rear. As long as you control the only way in and out of the Eyrie, it doesn't matter where you draw the line. Besides, you might as well use the nice castle you've taken, making the siege the most comfortable ever. How many besiegers have ever had the luxury of sleeping in beds beneath a solid roof, with high walls and battlements protecting their siege camp?

Depending a little on circumstances, I'd also say Lonely Light is a little hard to besiege. If you're its lord, and the Iron Islands fall under attack, retreating there is a feasible option. It lays so comparatively far out in the ocean that few people will dare/bother to follow you, or for that matter trying to find the place. Just turn off the beacon and pretend to be an anonymous rock, and you can hold out for a good while out there. Meanwhile, there's enough food in the sea to sustain the place indefinitely. Your only problem will be the supply of wood, to keep ships and houses maintained. It's probably not a very fun place to be stranded at, for the precise same reasons that makes it hard to conquer.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

^If you insist on drawing the system boundaries like that, one might as well say "Westeros" and call that a day. Okay, I can grant you the Gates of the Moon, but including the Bloody Gate as part of the defenses of the Eyrie is stretching it.

Then again, it doesn't really change the conclusion many posters have come to. If you manage to get through the Gates of the Moon and take the castle, you can fortify it and call it a day. No need to fight your way all the way up to the Eyrie, since they're not going anywhere either. The only way up is through the Gates, and that goes for the way down too. You might want to take Stone, but it's not necessary, given that the defenders won't have enough strength to retake the Gates of the Moon from the rear. As long as you control the only way in and out of the Eyrie, it doesn't matter where you draw the line. Besides, you might as well use the nice castle you've taken, making the siege the most comfortable ever. How many besiegers have ever had the luxury of sleeping in beds beneath a solid roof, with high walls and battlements protecting their siege camp?

Depending a little on circumstances, I'd also say Lonely Light is a little hard to besiege. If you're its lord, and the Iron Islands fall under attack, retreating there is a feasible option. It lays so comparatively far out in the ocean that few people will dare/bother to follow you, or for that matter trying to find the place. Just turn off the beacon and pretend to be an anonymous rock, and you can hold out for a good while out there. Meanwhile, there's enough food in the sea to sustain the place indefinitely. Your only problem will be the supply of wood, to keep ships and houses maintained. It's probably not a very fun place to be stranded at, for the precise same reasons that makes it hard to conquer.

I don't know if Lonely Light is hard to siege, but yep, no one would probably bother. I think they are probably even used to not having much wood. Living in such a remote place, they probably build their houses out of rocks, sea weeds, walrus skins and such. You can even make something like tar out of seal blubber (to protect ships from rotting, leaking and worms).

[Jasta11]

Casterly Rock, not even close. The Eyrie is a showpiece with no strategic value that can literally be starved by a hundred besiegers. Storm's End is in the middle of nowhere.

The Rock sits just atop a major city, making it a crucial stronghold. It has no walls to scale, an internal harbor to bring in food, is impossible to breach except by the main gates, and probably holds a ginormous larder. I see absolutely no way to take that by siege. As Visenya said in the world book, it's nigh on impervious even to dragons. It's a shame we never visited it, at least so far.

[Veltigar]

You make good points,. Sandstone is definitely one of the best castles, is there a real life equivalent (a castle built on a well in a desert)?

There's bound to be. Oman alone has like 500 castles, so in all the countries with a desert in it there must be something that comes relatively close to what Martin described. A quick google search yields Bahla Fort as somewhat comparable (fortified oasis, although there is also a town there, which might not be the case for sandstone) and Nizwa Fort (it's located above an underground stream, which is similar to the well of Sandstone).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Castle has two mottes... built in 11th century by William the Conqueror

Thanks :)

I acknowledge Winterfell has hot springs, but White Harbour is objectively a better seat for the North. It's warmer (more southerly, with a mild maritime climate), has access to the ocean (it's easier to transport food over sea than land), and better access to trade, being on both a river and the coast.

And if 8000 years ago, the Starks of WF had a choice they might have chosen to built their capital at WH (if there is no magic involved of course). Seeing that the choice wasn't there and the east coast has long been the most unsafe and unstable part of the North (until the foundation of WH), the Starks position from where they started out does make sense.

^If you insist on drawing the system boundaries like that, one might as well say "Westeros" and call that a day. Okay, I can grant you the Gates of the Moon, but including the Bloody Gate as part of the defenses of the Eyrie is stretching it.

Especially since the Bloody Gate does not protect against attacks from the sea, plus I rather think that the Mountain Clans have other ways into the Vale which they use for their raids.

[Mithras]

Especially since the Bloody Gate does not protect against attacks from the sea, plus I rather think that the Mountain Clans have other ways into the Vale which they use for their raids.

I am sure that there are many goat tracks in the Mountains of the Moon like the one Grey Wind found or the ones used by the Young Dragon.

[Veltigar]

I am sure that there are many goat tracks in the Mountains of the Moon like the one Grey Wind found or the ones used by the Young Dragon.

You know, if I were a Lord in Westeros, the first thing I would do is kill all goats. They definitely have a goat problem there.

[Wavey Sauce]

Actually when I said Grey Water watch was up there I didnt even think about how it is almost impossible to do a siege on it, majority of the army wont make it there, and nearly impossible to find

[Mithras]

Actually when I said Grey Water watch was up there I didnt even think about how it is almost impossible to do a siege on it, majority of the army wont make it there, and nearly impossible to find

Greywater watch guards nothing of value just like Eyrie. Moat Cailin is the key to the North as it guards the only land route.

[Morienthar]

KL if enough people are defending it and the people have enough food and water, would be very difficult to take, even to storm the damn thing you need to fight a street to street battle.

Of course if you have a decent navy, it's incredibly easy to stave out.

[Kyll.Ing.]

^If you have a decent anything, most cities are incredibly easy to starve out. KL was starving in ACoK without any hostile forces anywhere near the area. One road was blocked, and people started dying from starvation in the streets. Besieging it would be a matter of stopping the food supply, and then wait for a few weeks, if that long.

Besides, for a city, you have to look beyond the number of possible defenders. Count the defenders, and even if you count everybody capable of holding a spear, you still have twice as many mouths to feed. Even stocking food for a month would be problematic, as food tends to go bad unless stored in granaries built for the purpose, and KL doesn't have enough rooms like that to hold food for its entire population.

Add to that the flammability factor. If you're going to the step of fighting a street-to-street battle, keeping the city intact probably isn't your primary concern. Might as well set fire to it, and let the non-existent building codes (and the "excellent" choice of materials) do the rest of the trick. Even factoring out Aerys' Wildfire Plot, the city is still a tinderbox, and it's kind of amazing that we haven't heard about any fires ravaging it since the Conquest. Many medieval cities burnt down, partially or entirely, roughly once every generation.

The Red Keep would be a lot harder to take, though, and would probably hold out long after the rest of the city had fled, burned or surrendered. Then again, it has the problem of the secret tunnels, which not even the defenders seem to have mapped out. If any of the hidden exits in and around the city were found, the besiegers could simply try their luck until they found a suitable way in. Suitable for what, would depend on the tunnel in question. I guess you could fill them with kindling and stashes of lamp oil, or funny chemicals that make nasty smoke, and then light the whole shebang on fire. Or you could undermine the castle, or something else. While besieging, there would be plenty of time to come up with something.

[Tyrus Martell]

Is there any information on Sand Stone? As far as how successful they were when it came to past sieges? Or how well it did and how long it lasted etc

Pretty much what I wrote on the first page - fortified around the only well around for fifty leagues in the deep dunes of Dorne. Most information comes from TWOIAF and A World of Ice and Fire app. Look it up on the map and you'll see it's quite isolated from the Vaith river or the Torrentine. I doubt the castle itself matches the constructions of Storm's End of the Eyrie, but it would withstand a siege easily against a foreign army who don't break through before they die of thirst or heat.

Sandstone is definitely a good one. No trees for siege engines, no water for maintaining a siege. An invading army would need to travel some-odd 277km with their gear, and then immediately storm it before they ran out of water. An excellent point to bring up, as I've never seen it used in one of these discussions before.

Yep, my line of thinking. Take into account guerilla attacks from the garrison who would know the area better, and local predators like scorpions and whatever other unmentioned hostile animals lurk in the Dornish deserts.

A poster on the 1st page mentioned Sandstone, and that poster has the right line of thinking, as without water it would be basically impossible to siege.

Bodies would fill the sand dunes in a matter of days.

Sandstone was a great pick. Dorne probably has quite a few good places that we just don't know about yet, the environment makes it hard on any hostile troops.

I really want to know more about Dorne's castles. I liked the taste we got of Ghost Hill in the TWOW sample chapters. It would be cool to see Hellholt, Sandstone, Starfall and Blackmont.

I was going to answer Harrenhal, but a very good point was made about Sandstone, so I guess that tops the list. It might not be the strongest castle around, but the besiegers will have one hell of a time laying siege to it. Just put a garrison there with enough strength to discourage the enemy from storming it, and watch as their army literally dries out. Within a fortnight, you'd need gravediggers more than you'd need soldiers.

Again, my line of thinking. I doubt it holds any strategic importance, but if we're talking hypothetical sieges, then it'd be one of the most daunting castles to storm for any invading army. Maybe a local Dornish enemy would know the terrain better and could withstand the heat a bit more, but ultimately it would one hell of a castle to besiege successfully without losing thousands of men to dehydration and the heat.

Sandstone was, however, taken by Lord Lyonel Tyrell very briefly in 159/160 AC, though without a fight it sounds like after the Tyrell armies pacified the Prince's Pass and the Dornish settlements to the west first. But he died all the same in his bed in Sandstone thanks to Lord Qorgyle's ingenuous plan with the scorpions. It's probably why I thought of the castle.

[Veltigar]

Again, my line of thinking. I doubt it holds any strategic importance, but if we're talking hypothetical sieges, then it'd be one of the most daunting castles to storm for any invading army. Maybe a local Dornish enemy would know the terrain better and could withstand the heat a bit more, but ultimately it would one hell of a castle to besiege successfully without losing thousands of men to dehydration and the heat.

Controlling the only source of water within 50 miles of some of the hottest and driest territory on Planetos is probably strategically of great import.

[Mithras]

Controlling the only source of water within 50 miles of some of the hottest and driest places on Planetos is probably strategically of great import.

True and if that area has strategic importance similar to Sinai Desert, then it is even more important.

[John Doe]

But does the well deliver enough water to sustain an army?

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Controlling the only source of water within 50 miles of some of the hottest and driest territory on Planetos is probably strategically of great import.

50 leagues even, so at least ~175 miles in every direction. It would probably be much more than that for a real traveller, who won't be able to go in a straight line and will have to go around some dunes, up and down others.

It's really quite an overkill. We are told that there's a green belt south of the mountains, north of that desert, so I imagine travellers would just go around the desert to the north. Or they would use the sea. We are told that it has a lot of cliffs and few safe landing spots, but it can't be as bad as crossing hundreds upon hundreds of miles of hot hell. Victation travels along that coast and doesn't lose any ships, and he's not local.

I think that place must be a big oasis, instead of just one castle on top of one well. Maybe it was one water well in the middle of oasis back when the castle was built, but surely it couldn't have been just one well in the middle of sand dunes. Those lords and their small folk have to eat something. There must be thousands of acres of farmable land, palms, a good deal of water. They probably dug up more wells. Maybe they built up some sort of fortifications, traps, palisades or something to protect the whole oasis by now, so it's still very hard to take. Besides, it would be extremely exhausting to even get an invading army and its supplies to that spot, an invasion would most likely end before reaching the area.

Anyway, if it's just one castle on top of one well, in the middle of hundreds of miles of sand dunes, then it's a purely fantasy concept, there would be nothing to eat there and no reason for others to visit. No reason to take it either. If it's a big secluded oasis, then it's a much more realistic place. Easier to conquer than a fantasy castle surrounded by sand, but still incredibly hard.

[Tyrus Martell]

Controlling the only source of water within 50 miles of some of the hottest and driest territory on Planetos is probably strategically of great import.

Haha, sorry, well there is that. :P

I was thinking along the lines of it not being a capital settlement of Dorne, or a place where many travellers willingly visit. Totally forgot my point about the well kind of fits the bill for strategic importance.

But does the well deliver enough water to sustain an army?

Well, going by the poster below you and his comments...

50 leagues even, so at least ~175 miles in every direction. It would probably be much more than that for a real traveller, who won't be able to go in a straight line and will have to go around some dunes, up and down others.

It's really quite an overkill. We are told that there's a green belt south of the mountains, north of that desert, so I imagine travellers would just go around the desert to the north. Or they would use the sea. We are told that it has a lot of cliffs and few safe landing spots, but it can't be as bad as crossing hundreds upon hundreds of miles of hot hell. Victation travels along that coast and doesn't lose any ships, and he's not local.

Victarion is an experienced sailor and captain and his word about the four hundred leagues long southern coast of Dorne being ridden with cliffs, whirlpools, and hidden shoals can probably be trusted. There's be landing spots he probably won't have accounted for, but yeah, I'd say the majority of foreigners and even Dornishmen would go by the coast or using a road that completely bypasses Sandstone altogether.

I think that place must be a big oasis, instead of just one castle on top of one well. Maybe it was one water well in the middle of oasis back when the castle was built, but surely it couldn't have been just one well in the middle of sand dunes. Those lords and their small folk have to eat something. There must be thousands of acres of farmable land, palms, a good deal of water. They probably dug up more wells. Maybe they built up some sort of fortifications, traps, palisades or something to protect the whole oasis by now, so it's still very hard to take. Besides, it would be extremely exhausting to even get an invading army and its supplies to that spot, an invasion would most likely end before reaching the area.

Anyway, if it's just one castle on top of one well, in the middle of hundreds of miles of sand dunes, then it's a purely fantasy concept, there would be nothing to eat there and no reason for others to visit. No reason to take it either. If it's a big secluded oasis, then it's a much more realistic place. Easier to conquer than a fantasy castle surrounded by sand, but still incredibly hard.

It has to be more than one well/reliable water source by now to sustain a settlement made up of nobles and smallfolk in the middle of dry sandbars, as you've said. I'm sure the surrounding terrain isn't as devoid of life as TWOIAF and our imaginations might like to make it as you've pointed out; there's obviously a living to be made there, however harsh. Just good luck to any invading army that, for whatever reason, would try to take Sandstone by force/siege - they're gonna go thirsty for sure.

[House_Fukboy]

Greywater watch guards nothing of value just like Eyrie. Moat Cailin is the key to the North as it guards the only land route.

I checked the wiki on grey water watch and it is a floating castle in the neck that can't even be found by Ravens. It also can be used to harass besiege lines at most calin

[robb stark of the north]

Storm's End of course :cool4:

i think it is by far the strongest.

[Kyll.Ing.]

^You didn't read the thread at all, did you?

At least give some reasoning...

[Wavey Sauce]

I checked the wiki on grey water watch and it is a floating castle in the neck that can't even be found by Ravens. It also can be used to harass besiege lines at most calin

Yep that is why Robb sent two ship envoys to increase the chances of Howland Reed being found