Black Crow Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 ...So I think while GRRM talks a good game in terms of there not being a "deux ex machina" event, in practice, he hasn't really kept within that boundary. Ah, but what is magic if not if not the exercise of "god-like" powers by men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srecan Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 He has said this, yet I can't help but wonder. We have many instances where events have been turned thanks to stimuli that come strikingly close to deus ex machina (Drogon in the HotU, for instance). And I can't help but think that some wildlings consider the Others "Gods." Jon III ACOK "For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly. "What gods?" Jon was remembering that they'd seen no boys in Craster's Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself. "The cold gods," she said. "The ones in the night. The white shadows." The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings The countless tribes and clans of the free folk remain worshippers of the old gods of the First Men and children of the forest, the gods of the weirwood trees (some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold's Point, but such has never been reliably confirmed). So I think while GRRM talks a good game in terms of there not being a "deux ex machina" event, in practice, he hasn't really kept within that boundary. No doubt there is a lot of "deux ex machina" events in series, almost every magic event that happened in series is "deux ex machina". Its just the type of writing he does. He wants magical events to be unique and he doesn't apply any rules to it, hence almost anytime u see magic in the series it feels like "deux ex machina" (wagring perhaps looks like it has some kind of rules attached). But i think he never said he isn't gonna do that,. He just said its not gonna be any divine intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 He has said this, yet I can't help but wonder. We have many instances where events have been turned thanks to stimuli that come strikingly close to deus ex machina (Drogon in the HotU, for instance). And I can't help but think that some wildlings consider the Others "Gods." I think GRRM's quote about gods not appearing was specifically to dissuade people from the idea that R'hllor or the Great Other or the Stranger are real, interventionist deities that will play a role in the text. Of course, there are things we've already seen appear in the text that have power, and might be superstitiously worshiped as gods - weirwoods, white walkers, etc., but I don't think GRRM himself views them as gods. So I think while GRRM talks a good game in terms of there not being a "deux ex machina" event, in practice, he hasn't really kept within that boundary.This, though, I agree with. GRRM is above average within the genre, especially when it comes to characterization, depth of detail, and building interesting mysteries, but for all that he still takes shortcuts, and uses tropes and cliches. Which, mind you, I don't think is always a bad thing. In some cases, I wish he'd taken the cop-out solution.Sure, realistically, if you just pop into Slaver's Bay and try to end a 5,000+ year old cultural convention that's the backbone of the local economy, it's going to turn into a quagmire...but I don't actually want to read about that quagmire--it's a fantasy novel, go do something fucking cool and fantastical with your dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 No doubt there is a lot of "deux ex machina" events in series, almost every magic event that happened in series is "deux ex machina". Its just the type of writing he does. He wants magical events to be unique and he doesn't apply any rules to it, hence almost anytime u see magic in the series it feels like "deux ex machina" (wagring perhaps looks like it has some kind of rules attached). But i think he never said he isn't gonna do that,. He just said its not gonna be any divine intervention. Exactly so. While I don't recall the precise words he used, essentially he is avoiding rules of magic because that then turns it into a quantifiable science. That's not to say that there are no rules and the fact magic always comes with a price seems pretty immutable. However while the Varamyr prologue gives us an insight into the nature of skinchanging and warging, ultimately I think we'll find that its as unpredictable as any other form of magic and that there are no hard and fast rules. Things have happened and will continue to happen because the story demands that they happen rather than because the "rules" say so. And ultimately if men and women [and children] can make magic happen, who needs gods to intervene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I'm feelin the love guys. I have nods for all of you :cheers: Ah, but what is magic if not if not the exercise of "god-like" powers by men? :agree: exactly. There's no need for deus ex machina if the characters themselves can wield god-like powers. The end result is the same. A character can be in a life-threatening situation, then badda boom, badda bing, magic saves the day and the character lives on. Equally, a character can be killed via deus ex machina, like Small Paul and Waymar Royce, who both fell to Others. And really, I mean, the Others themselves are not even Men, technically speaking, so they are deus ex machina inhumanly incarnate. No doubt there is a lot of "deux ex machina" events in series, almost every magic event that happened in series is "deux ex machina". Its just the type of writing he does. He wants magical events to be unique and he doesn't apply any rules to it, hence almost anytime u see magic in the series it feels like "deux ex machina" (wagring perhaps looks like it has some kind of rules attached).But i think he never said he isn't gonna do that,. He just said its not gonna be any divine intervention. :agree: Though I'm hesitant to say we have not seen divine intervention. Mayhaps my definition of "divine" is more loose than yours, but Drogon has divinely intervened to save Dany's life on several occasions. Summer did the same for Bran (against the catspaw, wights outside the cave, etc), though that can be called protective instinct, I suppose. Coldhands himself is a divine "intervener." The best case to be made in favor of divine intervention is probably Beric Dondarrion. How was he resurrected, if not by deus ex machina? I think GRRM's quote about gods not appearing was specifically to dissuade people from the idea that R'hllor or the Great Other or the Stranger are real, interventionist deities that will play a role in the text. Of course, there are things we've already seen appear in the text that have power, and might be superstitiously worshiped as gods - weirwoods, white walkers, etc., but I don't think GRRM himself views them as gods. :agree: and I'm not saying the gods, as named, are real. But I think GRRM has simply replaced "Dieties" with "Powers." And while GRRM wants to pretend he's above writing about gods influencing humanity, in reality, he really isn't. This, though, I agree with. GRRM is above average within the genre, especially when it comes to characterization, depth of detail, and building interesting mysteries, but for all that he still takes shortcuts, and uses tropes and cliches. Which, mind you, I don't think is always a bad thing. In some cases, I wish he'd taken the cop-out solution.Sure, realistically, if you just pop into Slaver's Bay and try to end a 5,000+ year old cultural convention that's the backbone of the local economy, it's going to turn into a quagmire...but I don't actually want to read about that quagmire--it's a fantasy novel, go do something fucking cool and fantastical with your dragons. :agree: again, with all of this, particularly the last sentence :cheers: He wants to pretend it is hyper-realism in the guise of fantasy, but in reality it is still just fantasy. I like the anti-fantasy label, but it clearly this is a fantasy series. One does not simply walk into a fire with some rocks and come out nursing three baby dragons. Exactly so. While I don't recall the precise words he used, essentially he is avoiding rules of magic because that then turns it into a quantifiable science. That's not to say that there are no rules and the fact magic always comes with a price seems pretty immutable. However while the Varamyr prologue gives us an insight into the nature of skinchanging and warging, ultimately I think we'll find that its as unpredictable as any other form of magic and that there are no hard and fast rules. Things have happened and will continue to happen because the story demands that they happen rather than because the "rules" say so. :agree: "a sword without a hilt" And ultimately if men and women [and children] can make magic happen, who needs gods to intervene. Precisely my point. If anything, rather than excluding deus ex machina as a literary device, GRRM has simply anthropomorphized his gods by allowing us to glimpse only their avatars, rather than the powers behind them. Dragons and Others may be exceptions, even to this, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moey reed Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 i always loved the idea of the others being the old gods. people always worship/fear what they can't understand, especially in medieval like times. that would also fit in nicely with those pretty weirwood trees and bloodraven watching everything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 I'm reminded also at this point of one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels called Small Gods. The details need not concern us but the basic premise was that Gods [lots of them] exist but that their power and [literal] stature was in direct proportion to the number and fervor of their worshippers. In effect what I think we see here is a reversal of conventional theology. Instead of God creating Man it is Man who creates the Gods through the exercise of magic, not as living beings but as avatars of that power. The clearest example I think is the Hammer of the Waters, which together with the Long Night is the most spectacular example of a deus ex machina intervention, yet it is not ascribed to this god or that hurling down a thunderbolt or anything else, but to the "dark magics" of the Children. Why magic exists and why it is growing more powerful is a question in itself and one not likely to be answered, but the point is that whether or not it is "rationalised" [!] by invoking R'hllor or any other deity, the magic is being worked by those on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Deux ex machina's meaning has absolutely nothing to do with gods. This is very confusing because:Deux ex machina has the latin word for 'god' in it's name.The term Deux ex machina's origin is related to godsGRRM uses the term Deux ex machina when answering a question about godsDeux ex machina refers to a plot divice that comes out of nowhere - a plot device that was not foreshadowed... Deux ex machina (god from the machine) is a term that was coined to described where/how the plot device came into the story. Deux ex machina can be any kind of plot device, it is not in any way limited to gods.Deus ex machina (Latin: [ˈdeʊs ɛks ˈmaː.kʰɪ.naː]: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1] plural: dei ex machina) is a calque from Greek ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός (apò mēkhanês theós), meaning "god from the machine".[2] The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object. I believe that all the magic that I can think of, besides the Warg/Skinchanging type stuff has been well foreshadowed... Danny Hatching her eggs, for example, was well foreshadowed... I don't think that the 'Hammer of the Waters' can possibly be considered to be Deux ex machina because it is a historical event that occurred 'off-stage'... An event must unfold on-stage before it can even be analyzed as to whether or not it was foreshadowed or not & is or isn't Deux ex machina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 I think that a simpler way of expressing this is with the hoary old phrase "and with one bound Jack was free!" Its a plot device used not for something that wasn't "foreshadowed" but rather for something not explained and not capable of explanation. How did Danaerys survive the flames and hatch the dragons? [GRRM] - not saying, it was magic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I see your reasoning, but still, that is not the way that I understand the meaning of Deux ex machina... Deus ex machina (Latin: [ˈdeʊs ɛks ˈmaː.kʰɪ.naː]: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1] plural: dei ex machina) is a calque from Greek ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός (apò mēkhanês theós), meaning "god from the machine".[2] The term has evolved to mean a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.I don't see Dany's use of magic as being anything unexpected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Part of this i agree with,but i disagree that magic has to be gone in oreder for there to be some type of balance.On a certain benign level and in its natural state its needed for the world to function.Its that natural aspect that caused Jon to marvel in it and remark "So there is magic beyond the Wall." As to what will remain in Esoss,the magic that they always had in it's state long before Dany showed up. Most likely there will be no more Wall in Westeros at the end of ASOIAF. No more place for magic to hide :) As to Essos, I agree magic was present there long before Dany. But I think it also has to go out. Otherwise story is unfinished. If you have even a small place for magic, sooner or later it will try to reveal itself. And we'll have yet another song of ice and fire, earth and water, sith vs jedi. Somehow I have a feeling that Martin will try to get things as much real (i.e., without any magical beings or powers), as possible. And for me, if only magic Essos will show until the last big battle is dragons or Mel's shadows, I'd be a bit dissapointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Most likely there will be no more Wall in Westeros at the end of ASOIAF. No more place for magic to hide :) As to Essos, I agree magic was present there long before Dany. But I think it also has to go out. Otherwise story is unfinished. If you have even a small place for magic, sooner or later it will try to reveal itself. And we'll have yet another song of ice and fire, earth and water, sith vs jedi. Somehow I have a feeling that Martin will try to get things as much real (i.e., without any magical beings or powers), as possible. And for me, if only magic Essos will show until the last big battle is dragons or Mel's shadows, I'd be a bit dissapointed. There's magic in Essos certainly, but I'd say that as with most of Westeros its at a pretty low level. This is the Song of Ice and Fire and the two magics are centred beyond the Wall and in Valyria respectively - GRRM's heart of Ice and heart of Fire. Bran has made his perilous journey north to the first and is it Tyrion who is going on an equally perilous journey to the heart of Fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 There's magic in Essos certainly, but I'd say that as with most of Westeros its at a pretty low level. This is the Song of Ice and Fire and the two magics are centred beyond the Wall and in Valyria respectively - GRRM's heart of Ice and heart of Fire. Bran has made his perilous journey north to the first and... I completely agree that we are caught amidst Ice and Fire, and that the centers of them are indeed Valyria, and that place Bran glimpsed north and north and north beyond the Wall. This may be a semantic quarrel, but I'd say "most of Westeros" exists north of the Wall, geographically speaking, and therefore, that "most of Westeros" is experiencing a rise in magic/old powers/non-"gods" at a very high level. is it Tyrion who is going on an equally perilous journey to the heart of Fire? Metaphorically, I'd say this is all but certain. Literally, I'd say this is all but impossible. The world has already experienced climactic "dooms" in the form of Valyria's Fourteen Flames (Fire) and the North's Long Night (Ice). Just as the seasons themselves are fantastically severe and long-lasting, so too do the cyclical warming and cooling trends seem to be. I'm still of the mind that there has only been one, single, Long Night that included Others, until now. But that is not to say the Long Night itself is not a cyclical event. After all, we have our own "long nights" in arctic climes. While they do not last years, they do last months. GRRM has simply extended these natural cycles into magical states of being. (Yet another example of deus ex machina ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Metaphorically, I'd say this is all but certain. Literally, I'd say this is all but impossible. On the contrary. Either is theoretically possible. Metaphorically, just as Bran's journey was to the cave of skulls rather than to the Land of Always Winter so Tyrion's may be to Mereen and the Dragon Queen; literally his Uncle Gerion disappeared in the Smoking Sea of Valyria which is conveniently sityated on the way home to Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewolfStark Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Deux ex machina's meaning has absolutely nothing to do with gods. This is very confusing because:Deux ex machina has the latin word for 'god' in it's name. The term Deux ex machina's origin is related to gods GRRM uses the term Deux ex machina when answering a question about godsDeux ex machina refers to a plot divice that comes out of nowhere - a plot device that was not foreshadowed... Deux ex machina (god from the machine) is a term that was coined to described where/how the plot device came into the story. Deux ex machina can be any kind of plot device, it is not in any way limited to gods. I believe that all the magic that I can think of, besides the Warg/Skinchanging type stuff has been well foreshadowed... Danny Hatching her eggs, for example, was well foreshadowed... I don't think that the 'Hammer of the Waters' can possibly be considered to be Deux ex machina because it is a historical event that occurred 'off-stage'... An event must unfold on-stage before it can even be analyzed as to whether or not it was foreshadowed or not & is or isn't Deux ex machina. Pretty much this. It originally comes from theatre tropes that go back to ancient Greece and their adaptations of mythology. Usually the ending of a play involved a God (or demi-god) making an appearance to resolve the plot. It fit with the Greek worldview that mankind was simply the plaything of gods.Euripides uses it in Medea when her grandfather (the sun god Helios) arrives with a chariot to take her away at the end of the play after she's killed her husband (Jason)'s new lover (the young Princess of Corinth) who he left her for, and their (Medea & Jason's) two children. The change to Christianity simply changed which god was making an intervention. The one that stands out the most to me is The Second Shepherds' play, where the biblical shepherds after exposing the lying Mak (who stole their sheep and had his wife Gill pretend to have it be their newborn baby) and punished them both, that the arrival of Christ occurs and comes to save us from our sinful ways, where the three shepherds are transformed by the encounter with the newborn Jesus and they go to spread the good news in song. Renaissance plays went back to Grecco-Roman tropes, especially with Masques where the gods in question were often figures with allegorical commentary. I'm thinking of Shakespeare most especially who in his Romances and Comedies brings in gods or mythical beings quite often: the Jupiter scene in Cymbeline where he literally provides a decoding prophesy textbook to the heroes to help wrap up the plot; the Diana scene in Pericles where she tells Pericles that if he wants a happy ending he has to go to her temple in Ephasus--where he's reunited with his wife who was thought to be dead, Hymen shows up at the end of As You Like It for what seems to be no other reason than to say "this is the plot reveal...the guy's actually a girl, and now I'll marry you all and be on my way". The stylistic sense is supposed to convey when gods intervene that it's a move towards bringing divine order to here on earth. Then there's the masques in which the part of the gods are played by the King who is supposed to bring peace and order to a chaotic land, essentially with the masques as a big ego boost to the monarchs essentially saying "you're like a god among men", without whom there'd be nothing but chaos. It fits with the rise of absolutist monarchs. Since then we've been more into a decay as we've moved away from actually bringing the gods or god into the story anymore, but that type of plot resolution remained, hence we get a deus ex machina. And as we focus more intensely on stories of realism the device became more and more contrived until at long last it is passe. But yeah, what started out as a world view has since evolved beyond the point where it is required to exist anymore... the trope has outlived the world and worldview which created it in the first place, where it has nothing to do with gods anymore, but is a remnant of such a culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 This is not my idea, but I definitely subscribe to it... Does anyone else think that Bran's Cave is connected via underground river to the Nightfort & Winterfell? The connection is because there is an underground river in the Bran Cave & Jojen commented to Sam "Is there an underground river? you are not even wet!" GRRM foreshadowing at it's best... & link winterfell to these two locations because it has spiral staircase that continues spiraling down exactly like the Nightfort does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Only if we are thinking in terms of a magic river; although I say that seriously rather than flippantly. I really don't see an underground river which our pilgrims can navigate in a boat all the way to Winterfell, but a faerie road would be a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 ...But yeah, what started out as a world view has since evolved beyond the point where it is required to exist anymore... the trope has outlived the world and worldview which created it in the first place, where it has nothing to do with gods anymore, but is a remnant of such a culture. Nice essay, and also a pretty strong argument against R+L=J when J=IT and/or PTWP/AA. Is this really going to be resolved by Howland Reed appearing like Hymen to reveal Jon Snow is really Jon Targaryen and all's well with the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Random thought: The last several heresies have bounced ideas off the 1993 letter. How about a Heresy dedicated to the Pink Letter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Loner... A Rebel Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 We know UnCat is working for the Rhollor and is a zombie... and the Others use zombies as well... is it that far of a stretch to see Rhollor AND the "Great Other" as the same deity/power being worshiped from different angles...and Azor Ahai being the champion of this power (which uses dead things - ergo it will fight the living)It is the "Song of Ice and Fire" - ie harmony amongst the cold and heatnot the "battle between Ice and Fire" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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