Heresy 166

[moey reed]

Just for giggles, to return to R+L=J there is this line from AGoT when Lord Eddard is being taken by Petyr Baelish to an assignation on the brothel:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

He then goes on to doubt that Rhaegar would ever frequent a brothel. Would he? I don't know, and it doesn't matter, because what's interesting here is that Lord Eddard hasn't remembered about him for years, yet according to popular theory Rhaegar is Jon Snow's father and Lord Eddard has been hiding and protecting Jon Snow all his life because he is the son of a man whom Lord Eddard hasn't thought about in years.

exactly!!! somethings just don't seem right with the RLJ theory, it seems like a cop out to me and i would be peprfectly fine with it if we never get to know who jon's real parents are. at this point i don't think it is that relevant to the story anymore (please don't throw rocks at me :))

[Black Crow]

Throwing rocks [or anything else] at dissidents is frowned upon in heresy. Please feel free to express your opinions without fear of sich.

[Essan]

exactly!!! somethings just don't seem right with the RLJ theory, it seems like a cop out to me and i would be peprfectly fine with it if we never get to know who jon's real parents are. at this point i don't think it is that relevant to the story anymore (please don't throw rocks at me :))

:agree:

[A Loner... A Rebel]

I think R+L=J is a red herring... even if true... who cares who his parents are, he has sworn to hold no lands/father no sons so his bloodline is finished anyway

[Voice]

Just for giggles, to return to R+L=J there is this line from AGoT when Lord Eddard is being taken by Petyr Baelish to an assignation on the brothel:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

He then goes on to doubt that Rhaegar would ever frequent a brothel. Would he? I don't know, and it doesn't matter, because what's interesting here is that Lord Eddard hasn't remembered about him for years, yet according to popular theory Rhaegar is Jon Snow's father and Lord Eddard has been hiding and protecting Jon Snow all his life because he is the son of a man whom Lord Eddard hasn't thought about in years.

LOL It's funny you say this, because I popped in on the RLJ crowd the other day for giggles. I actually forgot how funny their reasoning can be sometimes. Discussion was on primogeniture, Dany, and whom I referred to as Rhaegar's disinherited children. There were some serious logical gymnastics going on, and I marveled again at the level of discussion we enjoy here in Heresy. If ASOIAF is Anti-Fantasy, I think what we enjoy here is just as brutally unfantastical. Here, debate and discourse generally is not built upon theories upon theories. And for as much as we discuss the other place, I honestly forgot how quickly they do that over there. It was fun :)

[Black Crow]

Yes, I'll confess I was reminded of this passage over there in a conversation which laid stress on Lord Eddard thinking Rhaegar wasn't the type for brothels and therefore unlikely to have raped his sister, while simultaneously ignoring the fact he hadn't thought about him for years despite Jon growing up before his very eyes; but then there's also a tendency to ignore anything which suggests the theory might not be quite so watertight as they pretend. The synopsis stunned them into silence for a bit but then it was back to business as usual, while as you doubtless noted despite Ran's intervention Maester Yandel's statement as to Aerys naming his second son Viserys as heir is simply declared to be untrue and can't possibly be true.

[moey reed]

Throwing rocks [or anything else] at dissidents is frowned upon in heresy. Please feel free to express your opinions without fear of sich.

thank you good sir :D

i would rather get to know more about the reeds and so on than jon's parentage

edit:phone is acting crazy

[Black Crow]

thank you good sir :D

i would rather get to know more about the reeds and so on than jon's parentage

edit:phone is acting crazy

This to a very large extent is the very point of heresy. Rather than get distracted by simplistic notions of Jon Snow turning into a dragonlord we try to look at what's really going on in the north and why. The why is important because if we revert to the original synopsis there are clear conflicts.

First there is what GRRM set out as the Stark - Lannister feud which evolved into the War of the Five KIngs. That one we can understand in both its original concept and as written in expanded form.

Second comes the return of the dragonlords in the form of Aegon and after him [we assume] Danaerys. All well and good; a Targaryen restoration and if the good people of Westeros suffer yet again that's the price they pay for living in interesting times.

Third, and worst of all come the Others, but who are they and why?

Ultimately this is what the story's going to be all about; the conflict up north and about the Starks who must rise again to confront it one way or another; its about the Children, the Greenseers and all the other peoples of the North including the Reeds - and that oath - and secrets which have nothing to do with the iron throne but are about old magics and ancient allegiances and enmities.

[jcaudle10]

This is the first I've heard of Arthur Dayne as potential Jon Father. Is there a more fleshed out thread someone can point me too?

Also, were it true, how does The whole Sword of the Morning bit fit in? Is it the magical sword of tPtWP? If so why did Arthur have it?

[jcaudle10]

Edit: Double post

[Old Ida]

I am not sure if I should ask it here but IMO if Heretics do not have a option on where the story is going I do not know who.

I have seen some speculation about Jon and Bran be on opposite side. But I have been thinking about the NK and the Craster´s sons.

If the NK need some replacement could it not be that he has already found an angry wild Stark with some Shaggy Direwolf?

We have not heard from Ricon from tCoK he is too young to be a hero in the story as many hope but he must come in the light in the story I think. And the NK could make him a "man" grown if that is what he does with the Craster´s sons.

Any suggestions?

[Old Ida]

sorry, double post

[Black Crow]

Its ok we all do it and as jcaudle did it just before its probably just the site playing up again.

[Black Crow]

This is the first I've heard of Arthur Dayne as potential Jon Father. Is there a more fleshed out thread someone can point me too?

Also, were it true, how does The whole Sword of the Morning bit fit in? Is it the magical sword of tPtWP? If so why did Arthur have it?

Welcome to heresy, which I believe is the only place where you'll find the theory discussed.

You'll have seen some of the argument in this iteration of the thread but essentially it boils down to the proposition that if Rhaegar Targaryen is not Jon Snow's father, then Ser Arthur Dayne is probably the only individual known to have had the opportunity at the relevant time. There's more to it than that of course, but its an essential starting point and eventually its a possible explanation that encompasses the Starfall connection and the Daynes.

As to the sword, Dawn, it is indeed magic in the way that Valyrian steel is magic but obviously isn't Valyrian being white rather than black and as such associated with ice magic rather than fire magic. It has been passed down through the Dayne family since time began, not from father to son but only to a Dayne of Starfall adjudged worthy to bear the title Sword of the Morning and carry it. The theory here of course being that if he is indeed the son of Ser Arthur Dayne, Jon Snow may be accounted worthy of drawing the sword from the stone.

[Black Crow]

I am not sure if I should ask it here but IMO if Heretics do not have a option on where the story is going I do not know who.

I have seen some speculation about Jon and Bran be on opposite side. But I have been thinking about the NK and the Craster´s sons.

If the NK need some replacement could it not be that he has already found an angry wild Stark with some Shaggy Direwolf?

We have not heard from Ricon from tCoK he is too young to be a hero in the story as many hope but he must come in the light in the story I think. And the NK could make him a "man" grown if that is what he does with the Craster´s sons.

Any suggestions?

There's certainly some pretty clear suggestions of Bran going over to the dark side, both in text and in the 1993 synopsis which speaks of him taking up magic first to try and walk again and later for its own sake, and then in the Winds of Winter [original] synopsis that reference to maester and greenseer working together is taken by some of us to refer to Bran rather than greenseers in general, which would in turn imply his first turning to the dark side but then returning.

As to the Nights King we are as ever divided with some thinking that the original still walks, while others think that it may be an office held chiefly by generations of Starks and that the present one might even be Benjen, but at this stage we really don't know.

[avernite]

So, after a bit of a hiatus (I think I last regularly read around heresy 110) some thoughts I had recently, hopefully some of it is new :)

We have had some discussion of both ica and fire being out of whack being a risk, as well as the more obvious 'fire=good, ice=bad' direction that heresy once set out to somewhat undermine.

So that leads me to option three, fire=bad, ice=GOOD. As in, the Others are the weapon humanity needs to drive back the Dragons.

Now, obviously, the Targ dragons once did die out without needing to be slain by the Others... but if you needed to kill Dany's dragons for some magical reason, the Others seem a decent bet. The Wall would then be more like a corral... 'back off with your dragons or we release our nukes'. The Others being, of course, a heavy weapon not used if not absolutely necessary (since lots of Northerners will die, too).

The story of the Night's King is then the story of a powerstruggle between the Stark at Winterfell and at the Wall, about whom had the finger on the red button (and maybe a bit about humanizing the Others; this theory suggests the Others as a weapon only, to be used up at need). Winterfell won, the Nightfort's red button was scrapped. The Night's Watch is just the order of weaponcarers (and these being rather deadly weapons, it's a lousy job... but you are important, the shield that guards the realms of men from Dragons).

Maybe, even... the Others father no children, hold no lands, win no glory. They are the true sword in the Darkness, the cold that burns against the fires, the shield that guards the realms of men..

Remember, there's rumours of Dragons once being in Westeros pre-Targs. Why'd they die? Someone got them.

Of course, this theory doesn't fit all the data... but at least it allows Bran and Jon (if he lives) to team up to defend the North against the Southron dragonlovers.

[wolfmaid7]

This is the first I've heard of Arthur Dayne as potential Jon Father. Is there a more fleshed out thread someone can point me too?

Also, were it true, how does The whole Sword of the Morning bit fit in? Is it the magical sword of tPtWP? If so why did Arthur have it?

Welcome to Heresy.....Not yet but we are hoping to once and if we get the go ahead.

I am not sure if I should ask it here but IMO if Heretics do not have a option on where the story is going I do not know who.

I have seen some speculation about Jon and Bran be on opposite side. But I have been thinking about the NK and the Craster´s sons.

If the NK need some replacement could it not be that he has already found an angry wild Stark with some Shaggy Direwolf?

We have not heard from Ricon from tCoK he is too young to be a hero in the story as many hope but he must come in the light in the story I think. And the NK could make him a "man" grown if that is what he does with the Craster´s sons.

Any suggestions?

I happen to think that Bran was selected precisley because he was not chosen and that BR and the little tree huggers have just gone against what nature/magic have set in place.Basically in my theory Rickon is suppose to be BR's replacement and Bran was never meant to stray far from Winterfell.He is the builder while Jon and Rickon are suppose to be in the office of Night's king and Greenseer.

Rickon has also followed that same Summer King arch...He is truly hidden away,and when the time comes he'll emerge already suitd for that position of Greenseer...The wild man of the woods.

Welcome to heresy, which I believe is the only place where you'll find the theory discussed.

You'll have seen some of the argument in this iteration of the thread but essentially it boils down to the proposition that if Rhaegar Targaryen is not Jon Snow's father, then Ser Arthur Dayne is probably the only individual known to have had the opportunity at the relevant time. There's more to it than that of course, but its an essential starting point and eventually its a possible explanation that encompasses the Starfall connection and the Daynes.

As to the sword, Dawn, it is indeed magic in the way that Valyrian steel is magic but obviously isn't Valyrian being white rather than black and as such associated with ice magic rather than fire magic. It has been passed down through the Dayne family since time began, not from father to son but only to a Dayne of Starfall adjudged worthy to bear the title Sword of the Morning and carry it. The theory here of course being that if he is indeed the son of Ser Arthur Dayne, Jon Snow may be accounted worthy of drawing the sword from the stone.

Have you decided on us doing a "who's the baby daddy project" after the season concludes?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

@BC ---- If we're to think Rhae-babe isnt Jon Snows father because Eddard hadnt thought about him in years (which is logical) wouldnt Dayne fall under that category too seeing how he was Rhaegars best buddy. It would be hard to think of Dayne as Jons dad and not think of Rhaegar in the process is my point if were using logic. You cant think of Robin and not passingly think about Batman But this is a guy writing a book albeit a very talented guy but still it could have just been a misstep. But your bigger point is spot on, when the dead are walking around it doesnt matter who sits the iron throne.

[addicted to snow]

I think that the R+L=J theory is correct; although I fought it for a while because the smug behavior of many of the board participants over there... Plus, GRRM & D/D have gone out of there way to make the theory more publicly known...

However, the implications for Jon will be Nil... I will thoroughly enjoy watching watching Jon Snow fall from grace & become the Night's King, & see posters like "Apple Martini" moan in grief, jump off bridges, & gouge their eyes out so they can't read anymore... It makes me happy just thinking about it!!!

[JNR]

I think that the R+L=J theory is correct

Out of curiosity, why?