Heresy 166

[Black Crow]

The only way Rhaegar being Jon's father matters is if it will have some dramatic emotional change in Jon.I mean Ned raised him so will he give a crap that he had a "Royal sire" This is how Rhaegar used to refer to his father " My royal sire" so that goes to show what a biological father can mean or not mean.

Whatever the truth as to Jon's father I think that such a "dramatic emotional change" in Jon is by far the unlikeliest outcome of any of the mysteries with which this story is laced. Learning that his mother was Lyanna Stark I think on the other hand will be a very different matter entirely

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I honestly don't think RLJ is as obvious as some people here think. All the 1st time readers of the book i've asked who's Jon's mother they have no clue, myself included. So kudo's to u guys who "say" you got it on the 1st read i dont believe u but as long as you believe yourselves. :) I personally flew thru the books and thought very little about the hidden things i later came to be aquainted with. So from an average reader which you all are obviously way above it's not obvious and i'd say ask someone who hasnt been on here and read the books about who they think it is.

[Matthew.]

I rather suspect that depends where you're coming from and whether the trope is there to be undermined and subverted in the first place. Its worth emphasising that in the initial synopsis GRRM stated very clearly that the story is to centre around five characters who will all make it through to the end. At no point was it suggested by him that it revolved around one character.

Whether by design or by accident, I do think the hero trope exists in Jon's arc. At the least, I would call him the most "generic fantasy" of all our primary POVs, to a degree that I even find him bland and boring when he's not surrounded by interesting people to interact with, like Mance, Stannis, Tormund, and Val.

Granted, it may be the case that I cannot separate personal dislike from my analysis of his arc (thus far), since I find Jon to be among the least interesting POVs, along with Bran and Dany. Even so, I do think that, more than any other character, he has hit many of the broad beats of the Hero's Journey.

Indeed, as of the end of aDwD he even seems set to hit the final points of the Hero's Journey: death and rebirth, transformation, atonement, and return. Any scenario where he's AAR, SotM, or a Son of Winterfell confronting House Stark's (proposed) ugly history would fit that mold. Obviously, he could alternately go full NK on us and become the face of the Ice threat descending on Westeros, without redemption.

I don't consider the idea that Jon is having a more generic fantasy arc to be incompatible with the idea Tyrion et al have equal narrative importance.

[wolfmaid7]

Whatever the truth as to Jon's father I think that such a "dramatic emotional change" in Jon is by far the unlikeliest outcome of any of the mysteries with which this story is laced. Learning that his mother was Lyanna Stark I think on the other hand will be a very different matter entirely

I agree hence the reason i gave the example of how Rhaegar reffered to his father and he knew him " My royal sire." There isn't going to be any connection for Jon because he had a father in Ned Stark,a pretty good one so he isn't missing anything in that department.Except depending on what story he gets he'll tink Rhaegar was a douche who raped his mother,or he loved her and sucked ass at duty and honor.

His mother yeah because that's what he's always missed in his life.

I honestly don't think RLJ is as obvious as some people here think. All the 1st time readers of the book i've asked who's Jon's mother they have no clue, myself included. So kudo's to u guys who "say" you got it on the 1st read i dont believe u but as long as you believe yourselves. :) I personally flew thru the books and thought very little about the hidden things i later came to be aquainted with. So from an average reader which you all are obviously way above it's not obvious and i'd say ask someone who hasnt been on here and read the books about who they think it is.

Hahahaha..seriously though it isn't that hard if you don't speed read or miss pages.Hell even if you do and your discussing it with pals as soon as someone says Rhaegar kidnapped and suppossedly raped Ned Stark's sister.Ned got to her but she died and he found her in this state ,Ned came back from the same region she died with a baby boy he says was his bastard......That's a rap

That's why i say if you don't speed read and miss pages its smack in the face.Its not cleverly hidden.

Whether by design or by accident, I do think the hero trope exists in Jon's arc. At the least, I would call him the most "generic fantasy" of all our primary POVs, to a degree that I even find him bland and boring when he's not surrounded by interesting people to interact with, like Mance, Stannis, Tormund, and Val.

Granted, it may be the case that I cannot separate personal dislike from my analysis of his arc (thus far), since I find Jon to be among the least interesting POVs, along with Bran and Dany. Even so, I do think that, more than any other character, he has hit many of the broad beats of the Hero's Journey.

Indeed, as of the end of aDwD he even seems set to hit the final points of the Hero's Journey: death and rebirth, transformation, atonement, and return. Any scenario where he's AAR, SotM, or a Son of Winterfell confronting House Stark's (proposed) ugly history would fit that mold. Obviously, he could alternately go full NK on us and become the face of the Ice threat descending on Westeros, without redemption.

I don't consider the idea that Jon is having a more generic fantasy arc to be incompatible with the idea Tyrion et al have equal narrative importance.

Ahhhh but we don't know if the history of the NK is accurate.He may well have been evil,but one thing i will note continuing in the vein of my theory.The position may be a reoccuring one,but the position itself need not be evil.This then comes down to choice and identity.Jon maybe NK,but his choice may be different than the last one.Same thing goes for Bran he maybe influenced by circumstance externally and internally but ultimately what he does is a choice.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

when i read a book i dont skip pages unless it starts with the name Quentyn. But im sticking to my original post that it's not obvious and most people when they have a book with the dead rising, ice warriors and dragons and people crapping out shadow babies gloss right over that winter rose in the wall or a fever dream from ned. But you wolfmaid are obviously exceptional I on the other hand am just an average joe schmo who reads at an average level (thank God im good looking cuz im not that smart jk).... I challenge u to find someone who's new to the book and ask them what they think. If they give u Lyanna stark 1st go around i'd be shocked.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I'm only half being sarcastic when i say ur exceptional btw u really do bring a lot to this thread !!!

[wolfmaid7]

I'm only half being sarcastic when i say ur exceptional btw u really do bring a lot to this thread !!!

I am not hooting my horn or saying that if it's been missed somehow the person is inadequate.I listed a few things. If you missed it because you skimmed he pages,it just didn't click in your read :dunno: If in discussion its laid out alot of people will draw the conclusion. If what happened last week was laid out in the first episode what conclusions would be drawn?

My point isn't to make dig at anyone,but to show that once its verbalized especially RLJ pops out. That's why its obvious because in every medium its not a carefully hidden secret.

Some will get it on reading,if you lay out the the sequence of events a whole lot of people will come away with that,if its shown that's the rest.

[Old Ida]

when i read a book i dont skip pages unless it starts with the name Quentyn. But im sticking to my original post that it's not obvious and most people when they have a book with the dead rising, ice warriors and dragons and people crapping out shadow babies gloss right over that winter rose in the wall or a fever dream from ned. But you wolfmaid are obviously exceptional I on the other hand am just an average joe schmo who reads at an average level (thank God im good looking cuz im not that smart jk).... I challenge u to find someone who's new to the book and ask them what they think. If they give u Lyanna stark 1st go around i'd be shocked.

Like to tell you of my grandson 23 years old, he has dislexia so he got audio books and just listened. He did not know other person than me who had read the books and he told me very excited that he knew that L+R=J :) I have tried to tell him that it could be some others and talked about things I have dead here on this forum but he is as stubborn as he can be. (as some others here on the forum) and he sure does not read the forums (dislexia) So he is one who "found" the right answer :cool4: :dunno:

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

And the fact your posting that here means your were impressed by it :) I have a slight case of dyslexia myself especially with numbers it can get pretty aggravating at times glad to hear your grandson isnt letting it hold him back!

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

ALL that being said i'm a firm believer in that Jon snows parents really make no difference I mean u got dragons, zombies, ice freaks, fire freaks, seasons that last years, kids that can see the past thru a tree, and people who can freakin control animals all of which is WAY more interesting. You can read all the books and not once ask who is Jon's mother and still get just as much outta the books... So i think it's safe to say were all a lil obsessed with these books have any of you ever gotten like this over a book before (tolkien doesnt count we've all been there)

[Old Ida]

Shame on me but I was not so much in Tolkien, on the other hand I was always on the forums of tWoT but that was all different. But as for Jon Snow I look at him first and for most as son of Winterfell

[Mace Cooterian]

Shame on me but I was not so much in Tolkien, on the other hand I was always on the forums of tWoT but that was all different. But as for Jon Snow I look at him first and for most as son of Winterfell

Amen.

[Voice]

A Long Day in real life means a lot of awesome Heresy to look forward to...

Please forgive the Long Post. I promise it will not last a generation...

I think it's also worth remembering that, though Martin likes to surprise his readers, it's not as though his work is just some grand criticism of the genre, where every trope, cliche, and convention must be destroyed or undermined--he's a huge fan of the genre, and the work itself has subtle and unsubtle homages to many works and authors whose works are a bit cliche and cheesy (IMHO). And, of course, he's a fan of all of the mythology that inspired modern fantasy.

So, my question would be, is Martin working a grand subversion with Jon, or is GRRM doing his own version of the Hero's Journey? Forget the RLJ stuff for the moment, because we don't even need that mystery to say that Jon is the character that most resembles a generic fantasy hero; he's the one facing the "real threats" and reluctantly taking up the burden of command while the rest of the realm plays the game of thrones, he's a natural fighter, a natural leader, and in a world full of grey characters, Jon's morality remains mostly untarnished, his transgressions being of a variety that the reader isn't likely to hold against him (eg, Ygritte).

The argument would be that all of that is to set up the standard expectations of the trope, only to have it subverted, but if that's Martin's intent, then the whole "story growing in the telling thing" really fucked up the execution. At this point, we have over 4,000 pages worth of story where one of our primary POVS appears to be a generic fantasy hero, which is effectively the same thing as just writing a generic fantasy hero in the first place. :dunno:

Well said, as always, Ser Grandmother ;)

I would only add that R+L=J is not required for Jon=Hero. Jon could possibly be characterized as a hidden hero, I guess. He's "mostly dead" right now, so there's that. While it isn't as sexy as a hidden heir, he could still be a hidden hero, the likes of which has not been seen since the Age of Heroes.

I can even see Martin pulling off a nuanced hidden-heir storyline that does not involve Jon. He's already done it with Young Griff after all. And there's always the possibility that R+L=Daenerys. How awesome would that be if the hidden heir was the hidden Stark!? While it seems far-fetched, that sounds like the level of complexity we should expect from Mr. Martin. Mayhaps the "tower of joy" (lowercase) was Rhaegar's nickname for Dragonstone ;)

One last thing... Jon's morality is quite untarnished. Just like his "father" Ned's. For both men, their one transgression is but a drop of rainwater in the ocean.

But, just as Ned tarnished his honor in hopes of saving a she-wolf just before Ice removed his head, so too did Jon tarnish his honor in hopes of saving a "she-wolf" just before he learned how Cold the pointy ends of daggers can be.

:cheers: superunknown...

But this is why quote-boxes suck :)

I rather suspect that depends where you're coming from and whether the trope is there to be undermined and subverted in the first place. Its worth emphasising that in the initial synopsis GRRM stated very clearly that the story is to centre around five characters who will all make it through to the end. At no point was it suggested by him that it revolved around one character. The real question is not whether GRRM is subverting or honouring a hero trope, but whether that trope exists or at the very least whether it will assume the importance assigned to it by those who have chosen to move on from identifying Jon's mother to identifying his most likely father and building it not into R+L=J but R+L=Hero

It exists. Just as the final climactic battle exists, so too shall a hero exist to meet the challenge it presents. It may not be Jon, but thus far, as Matthew points out, he's the only one dealing with the true threat at present.

And while you know I do not dismiss the 1993 letter, clearly those five characters are not all going to be heroes. While the letter contains many names and storylines we recognize, it is quite clear the story has grown, and more importantly, changed, over the last two and twenty years.

While the fab five are still discernible, two of them seem far more important than the others in terms of Ice and Fire.

There are indeed all manner of mysteries as to how Ice and Fire interact individually and collectively, which is precisely why I so doubt that its all going to be resolved through the identification of the hidden hero trope at all, let alone tying ourselves in knots as to whether it will be followed through or subverted. There are far deeper mysteries in this story.

Indeed there are, but there is no deeper mystery than the Song of Ice and Fire. If Jon is the embodiment of both, that's kind of a big deal.

Don't get me wrong, that's still a big IF. But most of your fellow heretics agree that the secret of Jon's parentage is no longer tied to his sex life. That's got to mean something, because we never agree on anything! LOL

Rather, most of us, and even you BC, seem to agree that in one way or another, Jon's parentage is tied to his purpose and destiny. This remains particularly true if Jon's father is Arthur Dayne (or Howland Reed, or Ned, or Benjen, or Rhaegar Targaryen, or an Other).

Basically, as long as Jon's father isn't Moonboy, the revelation of his identity will have a profound effect on Jon's life. Finding out he isn't Ned's son alone would have a profound effect on him. Toss in a Lord from another House, or the Crown Prince, or the Sword of the Morning, and suddenly, Jon will see everything quite differently. He will certainly see Ned, and Ned's sacrifice differently. He will also likely see Cat's hostility differently.

Whatever the truth as to Jon's father I think that such a "dramatic emotional change" in Jon is by far the unlikeliest outcome of any of the mysteries with which this story is laced. Learning that his mother was Lyanna Stark I think on the other hand will be a very different matter entirely

I fundamentally disagree. He already knows he is a "son of Winterfell." He already knows he is "no Stark." Learning he is Lyanna's son, instead of Ned's, changes this reality not at all.

But, even in your scenario, this would produce a very "dramatic emotional change." You've said before you have personal reasons for feeling this way in regards to finally learning who his mother is. That's totally cool. I get that. But Jon grew up calling Ned "father."

Finding out Ned is not his father, alone, will be incredibly dramatic for him, emotionally speaking. He never knew Lyanna. He can never know Lyanna. But in spite of that, at least Jon knew his father. At least he knew he was the Son of Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell. Jon has based his entire identity on that one fact.

"Knowing" he was Eddard Stark's bastard has been the one part of his upbringing that was certain. If/when he learns that his "father" Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell lied to him his entire life... learns that his "brothers" are not his brothers... learns that his "sisters" are not his sisters... and learns that not only is he "no Stark," but that his true father is of a different ancient House with different words, a different sigil, and a different purpose and relationship to Winter, it will shake Jon to his very soul.

Talk about an identity crisis!

Whether by design or by accident, I do think the hero trope exists in Jon's arc. At the least, I would call him the most "generic fantasy" of all our primary POVs, to a degree that I even find him bland and boring when he's not surrounded by interesting people to interact with, like Mance, Stannis, Tormund, and Val.

Granted, it may be the case that I cannot separate personal dislike from my analysis of his arc (thus far), since I find Jon to be among the least interesting POVs, along with Bran and Dany. Even so, I do think that, more than any other character, he has hit many of the broad beats of the Hero's Journey.

Indeed, as of the end of aDwD he even seems set to hit the final points of the Hero's Journey: death and rebirth, transformation, atonement, and return. Any scenario where he's AAR, SotM, or a Son of Winterfell confronting House Stark's (proposed) ugly history would fit that mold. Obviously, he could alternately go full NK on us and become the face of the Ice threat descending on Westeros, without redemption.

I don't consider the idea that Jon is having a more generic fantasy arc to be incompatible with the idea Tyrion et al have equal narrative importance.

I mostly agree, there is room for all main POVs to have narrative import, but Tyrion's role has been completely limited to the Game, not the Song. This could change, but so far hasn't. The Game is important, but that's just the preamble. When it's all said and done, I believe the politics of KL will prove far less central and important to the series than the Song of Ice and Fire.

In terms of narrative import to the Song of Ice and Fire, no one bears more weight than Jon and Dany. Even Bran, with his limited chapter count, far outweighs Arya and Tyrion in terms of Song-relevance. I disagree that Tyrion et al will have as much narrative import when the Song is sung, and if not, then I think we just found the real "scooby gang."

I'd chalk this up to one more facet in which the two and twenty year old narrative outline will not adequately describe the finished product.

Ahhhh but we don't know if the history of the NK is accurate.He may well have been evil,but one thing i will note continuing in the vein of my theory.The position may be a reoccuring one,but the position itself need not be evil.This then comes down to choice and identity.Jon maybe NK,but his choice may be different than the last one.Same thing goes for Bran he maybe influenced by circumstance externally and internally but ultimately what he does is a choice.

GRRM definitely enjoys toying with choices and identity, but we have no evidence that there have ever been successive Night's Kings.

when i read a book i dont skip pages unless it starts with the name Quentyn. But im sticking to my original post that it's not obvious and most people when they have a book with the dead rising, ice warriors and dragons and people crapping out shadow babies gloss right over that winter rose in the wall or a fever dream from ned. But you wolfmaid are obviously exceptional I on the other hand am just an average joe schmo who reads at an average level (thank God im good looking cuz im not that smart jk).... I challenge u to find someone who's new to the book and ask them what they think. If they give u Lyanna stark 1st go around i'd be shocked.

You'd be surprised, Ser, but I see your point. I've actually surveyed my friends and family after their first, second, and subsequent reads. Force of habit. I do the same to my students. It's really interesting.

For some, they don't even see why Jon's parentage would be an issue. "Ned said who his mother was, right?" They don't understand why I'd even ask. It didn't seem like an important part of the series. On subsequent reads, they immediately pick it up.

For others, they'll say something like, "I have a feeling there's something strange going on there." They toss around some scenarios, usually involving various women Ned could have slept with.

For others, they will immediately point to the abduction, and ask if Lyanna is Jon's mother. They are no more observant than the others, they simply placed more emphasis on that part of the story as they were reading it. If that seed emerges as they read AGOT, it has grown into a redwood by the time they finish the series. Some even have Azor Ahai off-shoots.

I don't think it is a matter of being a good or bad reader, some people simply find themselves drawn to that part of the story more than others. In my experience, it's been people with a keen interest in history who connect those particular dots. They question the reason for the rebellion, Ned's role in it... then voila.

Like to tell you of my grandson 23 years old, he has dislexia so he got audio books and just listened. He did not know other person than me who had read the books and he told me very excited that he knew that L+R=J :) I have tried to tell him that it could be some others and talked about things I have dead here on this forum but he is as stubborn as he can be. (as some others here on the forum) and he sure does not read the forums (dislexia) So he is one who "found" the right answer :cool4: :dunno:

Very cool story. I'm a big fan of the audiobooks. I don't think I know anyone who has used them exclusively for their first read, though. I'll have to add that to my sociological experiments :devil:

Amen.

But wouldn't it be a great twist if he wasn't a son of Winterfell? If we're thinking in terms of "George doesn't do obvious," it doesn't seem all that unlikely.

And if he is a son of Winterfell, Lyanna isn't really necessary to make that happen for Jon. And really, now that I think about it, Lyanna doesn't really offer anything of great consequence. At least nothing that Ned doesn't already provide...

[Shagwell Snow]

Ok cool

Wecome to Heresy.I think with regards to Bran and Winterfell this is correct,that's why i think he was never meant to go North.

:agree:

I subscribe to the Martin doesn't do obvious and i think this is true even if nobody else doesn't.Unless you skip pages in the first two books for instance one cannot help but come away with R+L=J.And for non book readers it is so obvious when the particulars are said out loud .I watch the review for GOT's called "What the Flick." One of the hosts Cenk the moment the whole scenario was just laid out,meaning...

Rhaegar Targaryan after choosing Lyanna Stark at the Tourney was said to have kidnapped her and raped her.Ned went to get her back from Dorne found her dying under these circumstances and returned with a baby boy he said was his bastard,but he wouldn't speak of the mother :cool4:

Instantly," Oh i get it i get so Jon Snow is Ned Stark's sister by Rhaegar ,he's a freaking Targ."

I'm sorry this s**t is not subtle trust me after last week there probably isn't anyone in the world that isn't thinking R+L=J.No care or subtefuge was taken in laying clues for this conclusion because its steering everyone in the face.

Clearly some people bit this bait,i did and one time because as i've said before Jon's path doesn't end with sitting on any throne of man so who his father and mother is doesn't matter.

Which leads me to why George has employed two seldomly used concepts ,but you see it in the books.There is two lines of inheritance the Patriarchial that deals with the physical and the Matriarchial that deals with the magical.So lets say that Rhaegar is Jon's father, magically it doesn't matter because both of them have a matriarchial mother lineage that is connected. That's why Dany is expressing the traits she is as well.

The only way Rhaegar being Jon's father matters is if it will have some dramatic emotional change in Jon.I mean Ned raised him so will he give a crap that he had a "Royal sire" This is how Rhaegar used to refer to his father " My royal sire" so that goes to show what a biological father can mean or not mean.

Politically if it is made common knowledge...(.can't see realistically and logically how) Some players of the game might want to use him and try and rule through him.Can't see this happening.

Thanks for the response(and black crow)I just think it's worth pondering as I've never noticed bran the builders crypt and he keeps popping up as a somewhat supernatural figure and as a boy.

On an unrelated note what has been the heretical stance,if any, on Rorge and Biter's fear of jaqan and/possible knowledge of what he is.they seem to show an inane fear and subservience to him,whilst not exactly showing that to the rest of the world.cheers

[Black Crow]

In looking at this question of whether the answer to the mystery of Jon Snow's mother is "obvious" I think its worth observing that the response appears to be split between those on the one hand who have applied themselves to figuring out the mystery and to whom R+L=J is either an article of faith or far too obvious, and those on the other hand who are oblivious to the mystery.

We ourselves, obviously, take the books very seriously and perhaps too seriously, but the fact that what would appear to be a very substantial proportion of ordinary readers [and viewers] are unaware that the mystery goes beyond occasionally wondering who it really was that Lord Eddard slept with is a factor that can't be ignored.

Ultimately, you see if most readers don't pick up that Jon's mother is an issue rather than a curiosity, the fact they are oblivious to the very question can hardly be cited as evidence that R+L=J isn't obvious. Its only when you actually examine the question that the answer becomes "obvious".

[Black Crow]

Thanks for the response(and black crow)I just think it's worth pondering as I've never noticed bran the builders crypt and he keeps popping up as a somewhat supernatural figure and as a boy.

On an unrelated note what has been the heretical stance,if any, on Rorge and Biter's fear of jaqan and/possible knowledge of what he is.they seem to show an inane fear and subservience to him,whilst not exactly showing that to the rest of the world.cheers

As to Rorge and Biter there is no heretical stance, but if you want my opinion I'd say that they saw Rugen the Faceless Man bring Syrio Forel into the Black Cells and watched Syrio "die" by first killing the real Jaqen H'gar and then becoming Jaqen H'gar. I'd say that would terrify even that pair.

As to Bran the Builder, the easiest answer is that as Winterfell's oldest resident he would supposedly be buried somewhere down in those forbidden lower levels of the crypts, although it still beats me why the Lords of Winterfell should start away down at the bottom and then work their way up as each level was filled. This is why some of us think that there's something quite different drawing Jon down there - and if it is Bran the Builder I very much doubt that it will be a pile of dust.

[Shagwell Snow]

Thanks, a plausible theory on jaqan, rorge and biter and it would explain why the powers that be separate them from the rest of the convicts.

And yes it very odd that the Starks would start the crypts at the lowest point.it's like they have been literally building up to something.the lay out and building up of the crypts for me has just possibly coincided with,winter is coming.the big one!

[avernite]

Thanks, a plausible theory on jaqan, rorge and biter and it would explain why the powers that be separate them from the rest of the convicts.

And yes it very odd that the Starks would start the crypts at the lowest point.it's like they have been literally building up to something.the lay out and building up of the crypts for me has just possibly coincided with,winter is coming.the big one!

To me, it implies there was a nice cave somewhere down (say, a Children dwelling), but it got overfull, and rather than dig out a new level even deeper, they dug one less deep.

So the reason for starting deep was 'well that is a handy cave'. Rather lame and unimportant, sure, but still ;)

[Shagwell Snow]

Haha I really hope not.Not much of a pay off the winterfell crypts just being a convenient dead stark storage" did you see the sign Jules?''

[Black Crow]

Thanks, a plausible theory on jaqan, rorge and biter and it would explain why the powers that be separate them from the rest of the convicts.

And yes it very odd that the Starks would start the crypts at the lowest point.it's like they have been literally building up to something.the lay out and building up of the crypts for me has just possibly coincided with,winter is coming.the big one!

The full theory on this one is that Varys [who may really be Rugen] was working with a Faceless Man wearing the face of a long dead Syrio Forel. Trant has him slung into the Black Cells to rot slowly rather than killing him quickly. Syrio then dies [and aint coming back] by becoming Jaqen H'gar and with Rorge and Biter is thus smuggled out of the city to continue to keep an eye on Arya.

Whether something like this is really going on remains to be seen, but it does suggest answers for a couple of problems and anyway its fun to speculate.