Black Crow Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 An other extrapolation can be made in the reverse. The Others clearly seem to be holding some ancient grudge. I have a feeling that grudge is tied to House Stark in a very intimate way, and that being a "son of Winterfell" might be a damnable offense in their burning blue eyes. That's entirely possible. If there really is a Nights King out there, I'm inclined to suspect that he's not the real old original one, but that just as in Old Nan's story the Stark connection to Winter may lie in his being a Stark, or rather in there being a Stark and an AntiStark, and that if so the current Nights King is of more recent vintage and is perhaps even the missing Uncle Benjen Stark - which may be why GRRM is holding out on us. Mind you of course and not incompatibly with the confusion as to whether the Nights King of legend was a Stark, a Bolton or an Umber or whoever might be explained if all of them at one time or another served as the Nights King in ghastly succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 That's entirely possible. If there really is a Nights King out there, I'm inclined to suspect that he's not the real old original one, but that just as in Old Nan's story the Stark connection to Winter may lie in his being a Stark, or rather in there being a Stark and an AntiStark, and that if so the current Nights King is of more recent vintage and is perhaps even the missing Uncle Benjen Stark - which may be why GRRM is holding out on us. Mind you of course and not incompatibly with the confusion as to whether the Nights King of legend was a Stark, a Bolton or an Umber or whoever might be explained if all of them at one time or another served as the Nights King in ghastly succession. We've no reason to think the real old original ever died. Cold preserves, and Coldhands very existence seems to suggest there are still folks wandering about from the Long Night 1.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 That's entirely possible. If there really is a Nights King out there, I'm inclined to suspect that he's not the real old original one, but that just as in Old Nan's story the Stark connection to Winter may lie in his being a Stark, or rather in there being a Stark and an AntiStark, and that if so the current Nights King is of more recent vintage and is perhaps even the missing Uncle Benjen Stark - which may be why GRRM is holding out on us. Mind you of course and not incompatibly with the confusion as to whether the Nights King of legend was a Stark, a Bolton or an Umber or whoever might be explained if all of them at one time or another served as the Nights King in ghastly succession. Even though I lean heavily toward the idea that there is a NK, and that he's the 13 LC, I think he could also just be some random placeholder, or Uncle Benjen. My personal suspicion is that he's not back for revenge, but rather, he is holding some sort of ritualistically significant office tied to an unrevealed Oath/Pact, and intends Jon to be his successor. In short, I think the NK will be Jon's Bloodraven/Kindly Man/Quaithe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connartist92 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Just a thought I had about Jon Snow... I see a lot of people saying that if we accept that R+L=J as truth, then Jon is actually the rightful king to Westeros... But wouldn't Aegon VI be older than him, and come first in the line of succession? So Even if Jon is a Targaryen, he still isn't the rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connartist92 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Even though I lean heavily toward the idea that there is a NK, and that he's the 13 LC, I think he could also just be some random placeholder, or Uncle Benjen. My personal suspicion is that he's not back for revenge, but rather, he is holding some sort of ritualistically significant office tied to an unrevealed Oath/Pact, and intends Jon to be his successor. In short, I think the NK will be Jon's Bloodraven/Kindly Man/Quaithe. Another thought, inspired by this! What if Jon does die when he gets For The Watched, but becomes like Cold Hands? A wight that retains his personality, memories, and free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I posted this elswhere with regard to the NK,which i believe is an office myself that changes hands just like the office of the "Green"seer. The NK was....The 3th LC and the LH before him He is Cold hands and yet to come in the person of Jon Snow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connartist92 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I posted this elswhere with regard to the NK,which i believe is an office myself that changes hands just like the office of the "Green"seer. The NK was....The 3th LC and the LH before him He is Cold hands and yet to come in the person of Jon Snow Interesting. Usually I dismiss a NK=LH theory, but when you put it into the context of it being more like a job, it makes a bit more sense. But what is their purpose? That's what still stumps me and has me still leaning towards the side of disbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 Just a thought I had about Jon Snow... I see a lot of people saying that if we accept that R+L=J as truth, then Jon is actually the rightful king to Westeros... But wouldn't Aegon VI be older than him, and come first in the line of succession? So Even if Jon is a Targaryen, he still isn't the rightful king. Well, you see here we have a number of problems skated over by those who like to see Jon as a secret Targaryen and heir to the Iron Throne. First and foremost is the fact that when Rhaegar went down, Aerys [very sensibly] named Viserys as his heir instead of the half-Martell Aegon, and then in turn Viserys' sister Danaerys inherited his claim - still before Aegon. This probably accounts for the title of ADwD because while the two have not so far met we now have two Targaryen claimants for the throne, of which Danaerys has the better claim in law and has the allegiance of at least one of her dragons, Aegon, on the other hand while labouring under the handicap of a weaker claim is actually on the spot. I we turn to Jon and assume for the sake of argument that R+L=J is true then he does indeed come after Aegon as the younger son. It is entirely possible of course that Aegon is a fake and or will die in a suitably unpleasant fashion before our tale is done. However Jon still labours under two disadvanages, first there is the question of legitimacy. If he is illegitimate then he cannot under Westerosi common law inherit and as it of course requires a king to legitimise anyone... This uncomfortable fact has led to all manner of fan-fiction about secret weddings, but even i some sort o ceremony was enacted the problem with secret weddings is that they are, well... secret - which is exactly why royal weddings are not. This drawback is hopefully dismissed by theories of a witness, a mouldy bit of parchment, a wedding cloak or the gods know what, all stuffed into Lyanna's tomb, but it don't signify. Anyone can cobble up a load of artefacts or produce a witness, but that simply aint good enough when kingdoms are at stake. Any marriage must be performed in the sight of gods and men and ideally as many of the latter as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Interesting. Usually I dismiss a NK=LH theory, but when you put it into the context of it being more like a job, it makes a bit more sense. But what is their purpose? That's what still stumps me and has me still leaning towards the side of disbelief. Ensure a remnant survives when they end the world in an epic battle in order to build a new age on the ashes of the old..Seed strong seeds (Wildlings) into the weakened garden (Westeros) and then in an extinction event that brings the primodial elements of ice and fire to cataclysim cleanse the land of the tares. IMO and In short ,the Greenseer's position and the NK/ position are the agents of balance.When doing what they are suppose to do .........They ( Life & Death ) are nature's equalizers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 good afternoon everyone :) long time lurking fan/admirer of the heresy threads here!! :agree: as many of you already pointed out, i don't think that the whole RLJ theory will have such a great impact storywise. GRRM talks repeatedly about the "bittersweet ending" which kinda leads me to believe that the characters (most) we know and westeros we know won't be there at the end. it seems as is westeros will suffer from much greater chaos after dany's invasion (if she's going to make it at all :dunno: ) than before, with the still ongoing aftermath of the war of the five kings, aegon showing up and and and. then you have the others apparently ready to wreak havoc. i dont think there will be much left of the westeros we know and the survivors probably won't be willing to unite under a king or ruler just because of his heritage, but because of his ability to lead in those hard times. i'd much prefer them to rule themselves "power to the people" like wolfmaid said Welcome to Heresy, you sound like you're going to fit right in. :commie: :commie: :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree with this.....The other point i'd like the raise is this.How exactly is this going to come about? And who exactly is going to care about yet another person who will require more people to die so he could sit the throne and rule them from some lofty perch. If i were the Small Folk if i happen to survive this i'd salute any would be king asking me to fight with a middle finger and spear to the chest.I'd be really more fighting for what???? The Revolution will not be televised . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolf Blitzer Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 If it was a question of monarchy vs. self-rule, I think that would make sense, but I don't see why anyone whose last name isn't Lannister or Stark or Arryn should think it'd be better to trade one king for seven kings, or ten kings,or one hundred kings, like they had during the Age of Heroes.I think the big thing they get out of having the Iron Throne is that a united realm becomes leverage to enforce a uniformity of law, trade practices, and settling disputes. The response to the Greyjoy Rebellion is an example--instead of the Starks and Lannisters being forced to deal with their asshole neighbors by themselves, they could send the entire royal navy against the Iron Islands.Similarly, had the Other invasion come ~10 years earlier, things might have played out differently. There are some advantages to being surrounded by vassals who all respect the same law, as opposed to being surrounded by rival kings just waiting for signs of weakness....of course, the real answer is, the Iron Throne is necessary (for now) because GRRM's plot demands it. :mellow: "A multitude of rulers is not a good thing. Let there be one ruler, one king." It's Homer. (Or Nimoy) http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/23932.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Anyone can cobble up a load of artefacts or produce a witness, but that simply aint good enough when kingdoms are at stake. Any marriage must be performed in the sight of gods and men and ideally as many of the latter as possible. I dunno, at the end of the Russian movie, 1612, the boyars were busy cobbling up a fake genealogy for the protagonist, Andrei, to claim that he was a descendant of Rurik, the mythical founder of Russia. However, in the end they decided to chuck it all and elect Mikhail Romanov as Tsar. However, in the movie, Andrei had already defeated the Poles in front of Moscow, so he had that going for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolf Blitzer Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I posted this elswhere with regard to the NK,which i believe is an office myself that changes hands just like the office of the "Green"seer. The NK was....The 3th LC and the LH before him He is Cold hands and yet to come in the person of Jon Snow Coldhands is The Friendliest Zombie. He'd be such a disappointing Night's King. Serving as trail guide for some little kids, occasionally facilitating cannibalism. He doesn't appear to be King of anything. Now, Jon Snow as eventual Night's King, that I'll think about. It would be a suitably melancholic ending if he had to ascend to the Night's Kingship in order to keep the Others in check or some such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Coldhands is The Friendliest Zombie. He'd be such a disappointing Night's King. Serving as trail guide for some little kids, occasionally facilitating cannibalism. He doesn't appear to be King of anything. The Friendliest Zombie who ever killed deserters from the Night's Watch and then served them to kids as "pork". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolf Blitzer Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The Friendliest Zombie who ever killed deserters from the Night's Watch and then served them to kids as "pork". Think of it this way, though. Coldhands is the caring father-figure who knows the kids will die without food, but are also incapable of procuring food. Here, he heroically saves them from starvation and also from the mental anguish of having to butcher and cook a human. It's like Forrest Gump's mom. She's not gonna tell Forrest how she helped him through school by sleeping with the principal. It's a distasteful but necessary act that a child should be shielded from. Like cannibalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 It's like Forrest Gump's mom. She's not gonna tell Forrest how she helped him through school by sleeping with the principal. It's a distasteful but necessary act that a child should be shielded from. Like cannibalism. Brandon Stark as Forrest Gump. I like that analogy. If you were dead serious, you would give Addicted to Sinkholes a run for his money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Dragons Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Think of it this way, though. Coldhands is the caring father-figure who knows the kids will die without food, but are also incapable of procuring food. Here, he heroically saves them from starvation and also from the mental anguish of having to butcher and cook a human. It's like Forrest Gump's mom. She's not gonna tell Forrest how she helped him through school by sleeping with the principal. It's a distasteful but necessary act that a child should be shielded from. Like cannibalism.What was he supposed to do? Let them starve? He did keep them alive, and he tried to shield them from the truth. Although I have to read over that line he said about being a monster again, I remember I interpreted it as being a bit more foreboding the second time I saw the passage.ETA: I agree with you, now come "flesh" out this tale of Coldhands the Friendly Zombie for us. I'd love to read his story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The Revolution will not be televised . . . :dunno: Coldhands is The Friendliest Zombie. He'd be such a disappointing Night's King. Serving as trail guide for some little kids, occasionally facilitating cannibalism. He doesn't appear to be King of anything. Now, Jon Snow as eventual Night's King, that I'll think about. It would be a suitably melancholic ending if he had to ascend to the Night's Kingship in order to keep the Others in check or some such. I don't know what to say about the bolded how is he suppose to be ? What does that even look like?........I'd say raising and control over the Wights is quite a tall order. Have you known GRRM to be anything else but subtle? Come now keeping the wws and wights in check...ha ha. Going back to my initial statement,that's not the NK's purpose if we know who he represents then we know that his domain is death.You can't build a new world unless a lot of people die. Plus who is to say that the tales about him as some evil dude is true.We actually have hints that it was nothing but propaganda to explain and make more palatable what the SIWF and Joramun did.He was one more threat that needed to be dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Coldhands = GRRM's Tom Bombadil = GRRM's Enigma Tolkien wrote in his letters that some of your enigmas must remain enigmas & that was the purpose of Tom Bombadil... Coldhands is GRRM's Enigma & he shall remain an Enigma... We will never learn anything more about him... We may see him again, but we will not be learning anything more about him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.