The Christian Allegory of Danaerys H Targaryen

[Drogonthedread]

actually i believe that three head of dragon is similar to Trimurti found in HIndhuism ...

the three heads being Creater , preserver and Destroyer which fits Dany perfectly after all she is the Last Dragon of the story ..

jon being all three heads have one problem i.e it is A DRAGON who has three heads not Dragon as one of the heads ...and this story has only one who is called LAST DRAGON and her name is dany who will also be mother ,queen and Khaleesi (AAR/TPTWP/TSWMW)

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The cultural perspective here seems not to be Christianity or Satanism, but that of a secular, somewhat jaded former Christian interested in crafting a fictional universe as complex and inscrutable as this one appears from that perspective.

This is the way I see it as well. It is a world crafted with a view of realism that is contrary to those earlier forms of fantasy literature. It is a world where love does not conquer all, or good triumphs due to it's very nature, or where there is a hand guiding human history. I don't see the point in putting a Christ figure in such a world unless it's done in a way such as in Lord of the Flies. Put a Christ figure in ASOIAF and watch them be crucified early with zero result.

[gash is back]

That's the excuse she told herself, but she didn't seem to actually believe it. Nor should she.

so she wanted to kill their beloved baby?

[SeanF]

Dany can fairly be compared to Moses, but not to Jesus Christ.

[Drogonthedread]

Sure but three heads. Jon is a bastard (1 head/face), Jon Stark (2nd face/head), and the final head which is his Targ.

If RL=J pans out, that means Jon is a dragon. He is a Targ. But from our pov, throughout the story Jon would have adorned three heads. The bastard, the Stark, and the Dragon.

if R+L=J then it means he is a targ which doesnt make him a dragon ..not every Targ is a Dragon ....and he will be part targ and part stark ...so basically that gives him a bastard ...if he is going to be a bastard he cant be targ or stark ...if he is going to be a stark he cant be a targ or bastard ... so in a way he cant be all three at a time

[bb1180]

so she wanted to kill their beloved baby?

I wouldn't go quite that far. But yes, as she thinks about it afterward in her argument with MMD over the 'price', it seems pretty clear that she realizes Rhaego's life was part of the deal. In her defense, it may have been that she didn't think the consequences all the way through in the moment in her grief over Drogo. Regardless, I think that deep down, she probably knew, and, as MMD said, she was lying to herself otherwise.

One of Dany's time-tested excuses comes out in that conversation as well, the old 'If I look back, I am lost' routine. She thinks that to herself in regards to the price, which seems to me to be an internal admission that she doesn't want to think about it, because if she does, then she'll also have to admit to herself that she sacrificed her child Rhaego for Drogo.

[Drogonthedread]

I wouldn't go quite that far. But yes, as she thinks about it afterward in her argument with MMD over the 'price', it seems pretty clear that she realizes Rhaego's life was part of the deal. In her defense, it may have been that she didn't think the consequences all the way through in the moment in her grief over Drogo. Regardless, I think that deep down, she probably knew, and, as MMD said, she was lying to herself otherwise.

One of Dany's time-tested excuses comes out in that conversation as well, the old 'If I look back, I am lost' routine. She thinks that to herself in regards to the price, which seems to me to be an internal admission that she doesn't want to think about it, because if she does, then she'll also have to admit to herself that she sacrificed her child Rhaego for Drogo.

the reason she realizes in that moment is because earlier in her dream she has seen her son dying and all the crying had been done ...so she when she woke up she already knows her son is dead

[Lazy Sparrow]

By the way, I also want to point out that all these comparisons, to Christ or Moses or whoever, are based on a story that is still incomplete. It's looking more and more like Dany's mission at Slaver's Bay has been one big mistake. Anyway, we should just keep this in mind in forming such opinions. We only have the begining and middle parts of her story so far.

[Drogonthedread]

By the way, I also want to point out that all these comparisons, to Christ or Moses or whoever, are based on a story that is still incomplete. It's looking more and more like Dany's mission at Slaver's Bay has been one big mistake. Anyway, we should just keep this in mind in forming such opinions. We only have the begining and middle parts of her story so far.

i wouldnt call that whole mission mistake ...its just her wanting peace and trying to keep it when the slavers party wont have peace is the mistake ..she should have done whats needed to be done

yes we definitely have to wait for the story to finish

[Bronn Urgandy]

This is the way I see it as well. It is a world crafted with a view of realism that is contrary to those earlier forms of fantasy literature. It is a world where love does not conquer all, or good triumphs due to it's very nature, or where there is a hand guiding human history. I don't see the point in putting a Christ figure in such a world unless it's done in a way such as in Lord of the Flies. Put a Christ figure in ASOIAF and watch them be crucified early with zero result.

Yeah, with my history experience as limited as it is, things usually kick off, everybody fights, most of them die, and then somebodies grandson who had little to do with anything at the start marries someone else's granddaughter, assumes control and things go from there until they spiral downward again. I don't expect this story to be too much different. Norse Mythology and Christ comparisons aside.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Dany can fairly be compared to Moses, but not to Jesus Christ.

Interesting example. Yes I see it. I still see her as a version of Joan D'arc, but the Moses element it there. Particularly the element of the baby floating down the Nile and raised in a foreign land.

But I think with all of these things, we can see parallels in hundreds of secular people and religious figures.

if R+L=J then it means he is a targ which doesnt make him a dragon ..not every Targ is a Dragon ....and he will be part targ and part stark ...so basically that gives him a bastard ...if he is going to be a bastard he cant be targ or stark ...if he is going to be a stark he cant be a targ or bastard ... so in a way he cant be all three at a time

It is all symbolic. As Ned was a wolf, etc. I am suggesting that this is a symbolic gesture, not a literal one.

[GtrGbln]

we had an excellent exploration here a few years ago on the emerging theory of dany as an allegory of christ. I though it was worth starting up again.

it seems quite obvious to even the most casual of readers that dany represents jesus h. christ (of biblical fame) and by looking at jesus' own life we may understand dany's purpose and motivations more clearly. obviously this is a sprawling topic so i will try to be very concise to begin with and we can do some "deep diving" on the topic in the following few hundred pages of this thread.

1. Beginnings

Jesus was born under pretty harsh circumstances. king herod ordered all baby males to be killed in bethlehem, cauing the young family to flee to egypt. dany too was hunted by the Herod-like robert baratheon and had to relocate to another hot location, Essos which also begins with E. jesus did not know his real father, just like dany.

2. Freedom bringer

Dany freeing of the slaves is amongst her most noble and widely accepted acts of pure selfless humitarianism. just as jesus frees us from our sins.

3. Resurrection

Jesus died rather painfully and rose again, in order that our sins would be forgiven and that we would be saved. dany too undergoes a resurrection, in the funeral pire, where she emerges as the mother of dragons. she too, must undergo a painful experience in order for her to become the saviour of westeros. there is also heavy crucifxion imagery in ASOIAF, particularly in danys chapters.

4. Miracles

jesus was fond of the odd miracle. water into wine, curing people, driving demons out etc. dany too has shown supernatural powers. she is fireproof.

5. Forgiveness

jesus is big on forgiveness. he forgives us all if we seek it, unconditionally. dany too has shown this divine level of compassion - she does not kill jorah when he is revealed as a dirty traitor and she spares every slave owning monster under the age of 12 when she purifys astapor. (clever readers will note the similarities here to sodom and/or gomorrah)

6. The holy trinity

perhaps one of the strongest parallels between the dany and christian doctrine is the holy trinity. in the christian belief system we are told that god is also three other aspects; the father son and holy spirit, and this is one of mysterys of the christian faith. we are told time and time again throughout the ASOIAF books that "the dragon has three heads". also a mystery.

7. Relatives

we now see increasing evidence that jesus had brothers, and perhaps even a wife and kids, but there remains an air of mystery around these people. dany's relatives remain shrouded in mystery too.

Man you guys will latch on to anything won't you?

[kimim]

I don't see the Jesus parallels. For me, Jesus myth is an extreme case of making a commitment and taking a bullet, and there's little of that in Dany's story. Dany half-consciously sacrifices her baby, but that's for herself. She wants Drogo back. Without him, she can't return to Westeros. Without him, she has no army. Widows go to Vaes Dothrak. She risks herself to birth the dragons, but, again, she takes the risk for herself, not for her "children." Dragons=power. Drogo is dead. Her army is gone. She risks herself, in order to be able to return to Westeros and win the throne. This is not Jesus.

Dany chooses to remain in Meereen, but this, too, is not exactly a sacrifice, as she never gives up on Westeros. She sees Meereen is a practice kingdom. She tries to plant trees, play politics, goes so far as to marry Hizdahr, but she's not fully committed. It takes her less than a year to take off on Drogon and decide that the whole Meereen thing is not for her. Again, I don't see anything like total commitment, and I really don't see any form of taking a bullet for something other than the Iron Throne.

I'm also having a hard time seeing parallels with Moses. Yes, Moses and Dany both free slaves. That's it, though. Moses gives up his place among the Egyptian nobility, and spends forty years leading his people to freedom. Dany's commitment doesn't last forty years. I'm not sure if it lasts a year.

[hallam]

Dany can fairly be compared to Moses, but not to Jesus Christ.

Thats an odd claim since Mark's Jesus is Moses twice over. The Moses myth is an archetype of the Jesus myth. Since Mark uses chiasmus ( ABCDE...EDCA) as his narrative structure he repeats the five miracles of Moses twice, once in the first half and then again in the reverse part.

Danny is not a redeemer and GRRM has three different religions in competition, the old gods the seven and R'hllor. The seven looks like a parody of catholicism. He is deliberately making all somewhat different to avoid parallels being made.

Like the claim the GRRM is using Norse myths as a template, I don't think the idea works. GRRM borrows ideas from history but he does not make the books follow history. The only parallels in the narrative are in the text itself, I believe that many of the dynamics of the war of five kings will be found when the true history of Roberts Rebellion is revealed.

The show does not owe anything to the Christ myth either. But it does use some of the same structuring techniques. The last episode (5.06) has a chisastic structure setting off Arya and Sansa. Arya is occupied by death, Sansa is occupied by sex (life). Arya is trapped by her free choices, Sansa is trapped because she made no choices. The roles of Wilda and Myranda are both very similar, both appear hostile, both are teaching important information.

At the pinnacle of the chiasmus we have a religious kangeroo court with a farce of a proceeding. Tomen has a choice between murder in the cathedral and having his wife arrested.

[Rippounet]

Its just the Messiah Archetype and the closely related Hero With 1000 Faces

Dany has messianic aspects of course, as does Superman, Luke Skywalker, Rand al'Thor, Mithras, Paul Atreides, Neo, and of course Big J himself. Countless more in tales big and small.

Actual allegory tends to be more direct, Aslan being the most famous.

:agree:

As far as Dany goes, she has the means, and possibly the will, to right ancient wrongs committed in the past against "her" (the casting down of the Amethyst Empress by the Bloodstone Emperor at the start of the Long Night) or by her "family" (the enslavement of millions and the destruction wrought by dragons of Valyria). But in order to do that she must find balance within her, between "fire and blood" on the one hand, and compassion and forgiveness on the other. That's being a good ruler in a nutshell, with the right advisers. But there's also the question of how she will approach feudalism and patriarchy. Tricky. As far as feudalism goes, I expect her to eventually follow in the footsteps of Aegon V. Patriarchy could be brought low simply by surrounding herself with other powerful female characters, and possibly adopting at least some of the Dornish laws.

The even trickier part for her is really about how she can use fire to balance ice without being touched by the corruption that befell fire-magic when the Heart of Summer became the Shadow. This implies eventually revealing the cultists of the Church of Starry Wisdom, the red priests of R'hllor, and the Shadowbinders for what they really are, essentially wiping out entire religions. The most likely path is for her to start by accepting the fact that she is a messianic figure (and be worshipped by millions), only to later destroy those very faiths she embodies.

To sum up: while she is undoubtedly a messianic figure, she is likely to completely turn messianism on its head. Far different from a Christic figure, I would expect a kind of Krishnamurti-like reversal, essentially bringing a light form of political, sociological and religious liberalism to Westeros (and parts of Essos). Of course, since this is ASOAIF we're talking about, there will be a cost, and the happiness of her peoples will mean the sacrifice of her own.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

hallam, you left out The Church of Starry Wisdom, the followers of the Many-Faced god, the Drowned God, etc.

By the way, I also want to point out that all these comparisons, to Christ or Moses or whoever, are based on a story that is still incomplete. It's looking more and more like Dany's mission at Slaver's Bay has been one big mistake. Anyway, we should just keep this in mind in forming such opinions. We only have the begining and middle parts of her story so far.

Excellent point. With Slaver's Bay she's looking a tad more like King Saul. Let's hope she doesn't try to kill David, whoever the series parallel might be for him.

[hallam]

hallam, you left out The Church of Starry Wisdom, the followers of the Many-Faced god, the Drowned God, etc

Not sure that they are going to be part of the religious war to come. R'hllor and the seven are certainly going to clash. And it is far from clear that R'hllor is on the side of good.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Not sure that they are going to be part of the religious war to come. R'hllor and the seven are certainly going to clash. And it is far from clear that R'hllor is on the side of good.

True. R'hllor's intentions are unknown, but I wouldn't count out the Drowned God in the war. Mel really, really dislikes Patchface, and the Greyjoys aren't done yet.

[hallam]

True. R'hllor's intentions are unknown, but I wouldn't count out the Drowned God in the war. Mel really, really dislikes Patchface, and the Greyjoys aren't done yet.

I don't see the drowned God as a player, he is more of a pretext for the Iron born to do what the hell they like. The main effect in the plot arc of giving them their own god is to make them free agents in the religious war.

Not surprising mel doesn't like patchface, seawater puts out fires.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The POV character in the song that most exemplifies Christian philosophy and a Christian journey is Sansa Stark, or even Ned Stark. Dany is Old Testament wroth of gawd stuff.